Talk:Khirbat Jiddin

"story" about the 1948 destroyed village is completely bogus

This whole "story" about the 1948 destroyed village is completely bogus. No, not "inaccurate", no "exaggeration" not even "biased"… a total fiction. No need to do too much searching\; there was no village called Jidin on 1948. The site is no more then an old ruin on a Crusader-Ottoman fortress. It has been part of the Jewish Kibbutz Yehia'm in 1948, and was so in the years before. The whole story about the occupation during the war was made up. The picture of the allegedly "destroyed" mosque, belongs to the fortresses own mosque: not in use for at least 150 years now, falling into ruins like the rest of the fortress due to time and wars going back well into the 19th century. This page requires to be re written from first word till the last. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.172.176.139 (talk) 05:53, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

There were many bedouin living in and around the castle ruins until 1948. Both Morris and Khalidi regard that as sufficient to list it as a depopulated village. Zero^talk 02:09, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

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Re. Zero's comment, AND the thread here-below: Does anyone have a good source on what "Bedouin living in an area" used to mean in the 1920s-40s in the Galilee? How nomadic, how sedentary, did they have different seasonal (winter & summer) encampments, only tents or also houses, etc., etc.? Otherwise, we're repeating empty phrases. Traditional Bedouin tribes used to roam over very large tracts of land, which no other tribe could use without using force; no modern state though, Jordan for instance included, does accept that as "real estate property" in the modern sense.Arminden (talk) 14:58, 7 December 2015 (UTC)ArmindenArminden (talk) 14:58, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Arab as-Suwaytat Bedouin tribe: did they have a village here?

Regarding Khirbat Jiddin, Ga'aton, Yehiam, Yehi'am Fortress National Park.

The area which includes the Israeli kibbutzim of Ga'aton and Yehiam, was populated before 1948 by the Arab as-Suwaytat Bedouin tribe. That is obvious from all good sources, the 1596 census, Victor Guérin (1875), the Survey of Western Palestine and its map (1872–1877), the 1922 census of Palestine. What seems equally clear is that two sites mentioned in connection with the as-Suwaytat, Khirbat Jiddin (the ruins after which it was named are now part of Yehiam) and Ja'tun/Ja'atun (which was situated at? or near? the site of today's Ga'aton), were never populated by large numbers of Arabs, in one case just 19 (Khirbat Jiddin in 1922 census). Such numbers are rather indicative of Bedouin encampments, or of some form of minor hamlets. Additionally, the apparently well-sourced WP articles indicate that the Juddin/Yehiam castle ruins were already either taken over, or at least in use as a military training camp by a Zionist group, by November 1946; the ruined castle was then fortified and held by the Jewish group against a besieging force of non-local Arab fighters for several months at the beginning of 1948. So where were the Bedouin during all this time (1946-48)? Not a rhetorical question, but a logical one w/o answer so far. Possible answer: as seminomadic herdsmen, they used the site only seasonally, the Jewish group and later kibbutz took over the ruins and surrounding lands, most likely after buying the land from absentee landlord. Often the case. Would mean: no "depopulation" after 1948 military victory by Israel. Needs clarifying.

The area of cultivable land held by Arabs (and Jews) in 1922 is also insignificant, some 20 vs. 30 dunams each. Again, on Arab side it's more indicative of (semi)nomads doing a bit of farming "on the go". The fluid borders between settled and (semi)nomadic is well known in the region, maybe the larger agric. output of 1596 marks a high point in settled habitation, while the war waged by Ibrahim Pasha against the so-called Peasants' revolt in Palestine might have destroyed the hamlet.

Also, if, as it seems, Kh. Jiddin was NOT A VILLAGE, it could hardly have held property at Ja'atun. The TRIBE of the Suweitat/as-Suwaytat, YES, but not a dubious "khirbet" encampment. To be clarified: WHO owned the land in 46, 48? Were the Bedouin settled or (semi)nomadic? Many villages were indeed depopulated, however this one needs closer looking into.

More info: even PalestineRemembered.com, most certainly quoting from Khalidi, gives 55 dunams of cultivable land vs. over 7500 (!) non-cult. for Kh. Jiddin! The 1945 census, which came out three years before the establishment of Kibbutz Ga'aton and also one year before Kibbutz Yehi'am's, states that the lands of Khirbat Jiddin were owned to a slightly higher degree by Arabs than by Jews (4,238 vs. 3,349 dunams), with the vast majority of the land being non-cultivable or at least uncultivated (7,533 dunams). Of the less than 1% of cultivable/cultivated land, 22 dunams were tended by Arabs and 32 by Jews.Arminden (talk) 02:45, 7 December 2015 (UTC)ArmindenArminden (talk) 02:45, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Under Yehiam the part about using the fort as a place for military training: it was "sourced" to "Rough guide".....seriously....I have taken the ref out, and replaced it with a "cn". I cannot recall having seen that anywhere else. Also: I have expanded on the 1945 data in this article. Arminden: you might want to read the first pages of the " Village Statistics, April, 1945. ", to see how it was collected, Huldra (talk) 21:24, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: Thanks, I didn't pay due attention to the source (and I didn't put it there). I admit that the "Village Statistics" is too much to deal with, I might try again once I'm pensioned. It's so technical and general that I am still left with my much more specific questions: village or encampment? What did constitute "land property" in the case of 20th-century Bedouin tribes? How nomadic were they still in the 30s-40s? Sedentarisation is a well-known phenomenon, but 22 (!) cultivated dunams don't look like much, even if the system of classification is flawed.Arminden (talk) 20:18, 8 December 2015 (UTC)ArmindenArminden (talk) 20:18, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Arminden: I´m not sure if the census can answer that, or indeed if anyone collected (or published) data on the northern beduin (like Aref al-Aref did on those in the south). But at least try reading p. 2 in the 1945 village statistics (it is not really correct to call it a census), to get an idea as to how the estimated the data. Yes, only 22 dunams were cultivated, but they still owed 4,216 "uncultivated" land. That was typically land the beduin used for grazing. Some of the villages in the Hebron area..with lots of Beduin..had absolutely huge areas that were classified as "uncultivable", i.e., used by the Beduin. Take Dura, Hebron: 146000+ dunums of uncultivable land. And even if they were semi-nomadic: the land still belonged to them, and they paid taxes on it. (Taxes were what all these censuses and statistics were always about, anyway! Mamluk, Ottoman, or British...*that* did not change.)

Btw, did you see my question to you on Talk:Ga'aton? Huldra (talk) 20:45, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: Now I have. I have intentionally placed the questions on all 3 talk pages, some editors will only bump into one of them.
Bedouin owning half a count[r]y: that's exactly my point. This is a pre-modern concept: I graze my herds here, I have the weapons to keep other Bedouin tribes out, therefore it's mine. This doesn't work anywhere in a modern state, see Jordan for instance. Unless we reach a less formal level of understanding the phenomenon, reading & quoting more or less academic papers and dry statistics will take us nowhere. The Ottoman sultan owned almost all of the lands of his empire, fully legally in his time, but so what? Different era! Ok, sorry, but I've spent enough time on this. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 00:23, 9 December 2015 (UTC)ArmindenArminden (talk) 00:23, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

1500 people in 1945?

Ok, so Khalidi, 1992, p. 18, writes that this place (including Arab al-Suwaytat) had 1,500 inhabitants. However, Hadawi (which Khalidi used) does not list any number of inhabitants, either for Khirbat Jiddin (p. 40) or Arab al-Suwaytat (p. 41).

Neither did the original Village Statistics, pp. 4, 5.

Also, both counted Arab al-Suwaytat under Tarshiha, not Khirbat Jiddin!

So where the heck did Khalidi get the 1,500 numbers from?? Huldra (talk) 22:21, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

The 1938 village statistics listed no population for Khirbat Jiddin either. Zero^talk 23:38, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Hello, did you get an answer to this question by now ? I am translating the text for the French Wikipedia and was blocked exactly at this point. For the 1500 inhabitants, the reference is to the 1945 Statistics, which is blatantly false. If it is Khalidi (I do not have the book here), at least what is the source should be corrected (I cannot do it as I have not enough contributions here...). But it would be nice to understand the situation. Palestine.remembered gives 1740 for the population in 1948, I do not know their source. Thank you in advance, --Cgolds (talk) 17:19, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

What’s “Kiryat”?

In the current localities section it lists a place called “Kiryat” which is a common word in the name of Israeli Settlements meaning “Town” or “City” but I can’t find any information about a settlement known as just “Kiryat”. In short it should be removed because it might not exist but in long if there’s an Israeli settlement that has “Kiryat” in its name and Is built on top of this place then it should specified for example “Kiryat Gat” and “Kiryat Bialik”, the “Gat” and the “Bialik” distinguishes these two places (note that there’s also a kibbutz with the name “gat” but the word kiryat distinguishes the modern city from the nearby kibbutz but that’s for a different topic) TazunaJersey (talk) 17:15, 18 November 2023 (UTC)