Talk:John Clem

Clem at Shiloh

Note that Newark researcher E. Chris Evans, the head of the John L. Clem Statue Committee, has researched the story of "Johnny Shiloh." Clem's regiment the 3rd OVI was in Huntsville, Alabama, during the Battle of Shiloh. A relative served in the 24th OVI at Cheat Mountain when the two regiments were camped near one another. If Clem was truly at Shiloh, he might have swapped regiments and accompanied his uncle. Clem himself never addressed the Johnny Shiloh legend. Scott Mingus 14:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Enlistment

Johnny Clem was unable to Join the 3rd ohio Volenteer Infantry, because of his youth. he was enlisted into the 22nd Michigan Volenteer infantry. He was in Company C. This can be confirmed by simply looking at the 22nd Michigans Duty Roster. It is readally available for viewing at the Michigan State Archives and I believe also it is available on line.Reenactorjohn (talk) 00:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi there, John. There are a number of problems with your recent edits. First of all, by re-introducing the same edit three times in one day, you violated a wikipedia rule call called 3RR: the three revert rule. Second, you do not provide any kind of proper citation for your claims. Third, there are all kind of problems with the grammar, capitalization, and punctuation you used. Fourth, I clicked on the links you added, and both of them came up "Page not found." Lastly, you need to learn how to sign your comments if you are going to use the talk page. Add four "~" at the end of comments. Until you start playing by the rules, these edits are a no-go. Joegoodfriend (talk) 07:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey Joe, I noticed some one fixed the links that I posted; if it was you I thank you. I have been reading the page that I was sent to when I got the message; it said that, from what I could gather; that if I did not use the undo button, and that each one was a new edit, that I did not break the 3 RR. As for the problems with my grammar, capitalisation, and citation I can only do so much. I am dislexic and my spelling suffers for it, and the citations are the link that I sent it. I hope this offers some understanding between the two of us.Reenactorjohn (talk) 00:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Well said, sir. I will not cut out the changes again. I will however do some more research and try to tighten up the text. I am intrigued by the idea that the Johnny Shiloh story is actually myth, similar to (for instance) the story of Betsy Ross or Abner Doubleday's supposed invention of baseball. If you are a reenactor, then I admire your courage to handle black powder, not to mention camping without a flashlight. Joegoodfriend (talk) 03:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I look forward to sharing with you any findings I my self can dig up. Right now I am largely going by what the historians at Shiloh said, because I'm researching John Clem for a first person impression. They told me his unit was never there, and from the stand point that his drum was smashed by an artillery round. I work on an Origianal cannon. If you get too close to her front end when she goes off your insides will basicly liquify. By modern medical technology having a Civil War Era Drum blown out from infront of you by an artillery round would be fatal, by civil war medical restrictions; it would be worse. I think there may also be some confusion because I believe his Uncle was a casualty of the Battle of Shiloh... and the Uncle did have the same last name. Many men did sew their last name into their jackets, so that they could be identafied. As for working with black powder I'm more worried about the 840 lbs bronze tube it gets shoved into, assentually making it a giant bomb, plus the walking around in the dark is actually easier after a couple of events then trying to fumble with a flash lights. No my friend the real hazards are in the use of public portapodsReenactorjohn (talk) 04:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi John. I've been doing some research, and I have to say, I'm not finding a lot of doubt being cast on the Johnny Shiloh story. Many sources, including the State Historical Society of Ohio, appear to confirm it. Also, you can read this article on Clem [1] from the New York Times from 1915, when Clem was nearing retirement:

"In that battle Clem got into the very hottest of the fight. He came very near losing his life when a shrapnel shell exploded within a few feet of him. A fragment of the shell crashed through his drum and the shock of the explosion hurled him unconscious to the ground, where he was subsequently found and recused by his bigger comrades. After the battle the soldiers nicknamed Clem "Johnny Shiloh"."

Well, they say the Times is the paper of record. What sources do you have that suggest that the incident didn't happen? Thanks. Joegoodfriend (talk) 20:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The sorces I have are the Shiloh national Battle field park, historians. They are trained very well to research things, such as this. Also the fact that if shrapnel had gone threw his drum which would have been constructed of oak which is alot thicker then human flesh, it would have allmost certainly gone threw him. This would have resaulted in death, meaning he wouldn't have been around to go on to become the myth. Also I must point out that the news paper artical was written in 1915, Allmost sixty years after the battle of Shiloh. I cannot regaurd an artical, written by a collumist whom was probably not even alive when the battle was faught, and if he was, he was probably an infant. Now for the sorce of the Historical Society of Ohio. I have dealt with state historical sociaties. They are in many cases, more often then not the largest sorce of historical confusion. As apposed to researching things, the unpaid volenteers will often just look up a couple of sorces that kinda coencide and say thats good enough. The State historical society of Ohio are the same people who claim John Clem was enlisted in the 3rd OVI and as we both now know from the link I posted, and could be further confirmed by going to the national archives and looking at his military record. If you wish to find confirmation of my accusation that John Clem was not at the battle of Shiloh. Look at the line of battle. Look for the 22nd Michigan. They weren't there. In the 1860's you couldn't get a pass more then three days from your unit, and you had to stay with in a 5 mile radious of camp. In other words you could go into town. If you believe that he was in the 3rd OVI look for them at the Battle of Shiloh. They were also not there. Either way, Johnny Clem could not have been at the battle of ShilohReenactorjohn (talk) 23:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Very interesting stuff. Now when I first read your post, I thought we might not have anything useful for the article because of wikipedia's prohibition against original research. In other words, you can't use stuff park rangers tell you, no matter how true. However, I found this page: [2]. If this is accurate, and we're talking about the same 22nd Michigan, then it's case closed: this unit wasn't formed at the time of Shiloh. What do you think? Joegoodfriend (talk) 01:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

That would be one in the same. He was in company C. and yes that page is very accurate. You'll also note support in the fact, that they were invalved in the battle of chickamauga which is where John Clem got the nick name the Drummer boy of chickamauga.Reenactorjohn (talk) 02:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I've overhauled the text. Let me know what you think. Joegoodfriend (talk) 22:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I just read it Joe, I absolutely love it. It does justice to the man, and it tactfully explains the legend. Tact being a grace that I must confess I lack at times. When I go back to collage and get into the honors program for my journalism, I plan on using the Clem Legend, to analytically compair media coverage and propiganda, and its effect on historical views of a person.Reenactorjohn (talk) 00:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. This exercise in correcting the historical record has been an interesting one. As Twain once said, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

If you check the history of this article, you will find that there was no article on John Clem for wikipedia until July 2006. It is one of the few which I have had the privilege of writing myself from scratch.

I hope you continue editing here. Don't be afraid of typos, there'll be someone to jump in and fix things. And after all, as Twain also said, "You should never trust a man who has only one way to spell a word." Joegoodfriend (talk) 18:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

There's a math typo in the first paragraph of the Civil War section. In May 1861 he would have been nine years old, not eleven. His tenth birthday would have been later that year on August 15. --75.32.236.39 (talk) 08:25, 4 March 2011 (UTC) Chris Myers

Retirement

Clem had only attained the rank of Colonel when he officially retired from the Army, but was promoted to Major General at retirement as was sometimes done at this time for men who had significantly contributed to the service. However, in Clem's case it was his time in the Civil War that gained him his final promotion as his service in the Army's Quartermaster Corps was lackluster. At one time, near the end of this career, he was actually relieved from duty at a post "in the best interest of the service" in a report by General Leonard Wood, his commanding officer. The Book Too Young to Die: Boy Soldiers of the Union Army 1861-1866 has an extensive section on John Clem and answers many questions raised above on this Discussion page (with references). Trfasulo (talk) 17:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually I wrote the above from memory. Clem retired as a Colonel but was promoted to MGen by an act of Congress on 29 August 1916. A similar story regarding young courage is that of Jack Lucas who enlisted in the Marines at the age of 14 in 1942, received the Medal of Honor for his actions at Iwo Jima when he was 17, at 18 (now a civilian) he registered for the Selective Service, and later served as an officer in the Army's paratroops. Trfasulo (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Birth and death dates discrepancy

I noticed that the introduction states 13th as the date, whereas the summary beneath the picture states 15th as the date. Sebastianne13 (talk) 07:56, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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Birth name

I think his birth name was John Joseph Klem. He changed it in John Lincoln Clem when he enlisted the regular army, in honor of President Lincoln 37.160.146.249 (talk) 22:34, 15 December 2022 (UTC)