Talk:John Bereslavsky

Ioann Bereslavky, founder of a new spirituality movement, or a new religious movement founder?

From the day of the creation of the article to the 28th January, the label that was attributed to Ioann Bereslavsky was 'new religious movement founder'. The 28th an user changed that label with 'founder of new spirituality'. The reasons he gave are a less classist label and that religions are opposite to the associations of Ioann Bereslavsky (they are given in Spanish). https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ioann_Bereslavsky&type=revision&diff=1003306127&oldid=1003168994

However I consider the Asociación para el estudio de la cultura cátara as a religious movement despite its members do not regard the association as a religion but an association with spiritual contents and practice of ethics. https://cataros.org/quienes-somos/

I consider that Spanish association as a religion because the association comes from the supposed revelation from a goddess (which they name the Mother of Humanity, Alma Mater Dei et Humani, etc.) to a man who calls hisself is considered to have Juan de San Grial as the name by the member of the association. All the doctrine of the association, the ethics and some historic facts that they consider to be true, come from the supposed revelation to Juan de San Grial. The organisation has also some practices.

I show some resources of the association:

In this site of the association, it is claimed that their spirituality comes from the supposed revelation to Juan de San Grial (in Spanish): https://www.espiritualidad-catara.com/juan-de-san-grial

An one-hour conference of the features of its association (in Spanish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKbEUw3kyw4 It lasts almost an hour, I can see the video again and make a summary in three days.

Their spiritual vision of America (in Spanish): https://www.espiritualidad-catara.com/libreria/historia-autentica/product/view/1/96

Their vision of Carthago civilisation which includes spiritual concepts (in Spanish): https://www.espiritualidad-catara.com/product/view/1/3

A supposed revelation of the “Divine mother” (in Spanish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyFhXEdMS-Y

A practice in the association (in Spanish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOhEAzAOmuU

Another practice (in Spanish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEMwjoB1GnA

A video explaining what is not considered the good, unlike some religions and philosophies (in Spanish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kku6L2lRwjs

It is difficult for the average person to makes differences between religion and spirituality and especially between a religion and an association with spiritual contents. I would like to create a debate about the fact whether Asociación para el estudio de la cultura cátara is a religious movement or not.

Independent of the fact whether the Spanish association is a religious movement or not, the Bogorodichnij Centr is surely considered as a religious movement. Some proofs of that are https://books.google.es/books?id=mcQQAQAAIAAJ&q=%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9+%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80&dq=%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9+%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80&hl=es&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJ5b-YlZzvAhWLERQKHWmqDLc4ChDoATADegQIABAC , https://books.google.es/books?id=Sz8qAQAAIAAJ&q=%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9+%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80&dq=%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9+%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80&hl=es&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJ5b-YlZzvAhWLERQKHWmqDLc4ChDoATAGegQIARAC , https://books.google.es/books?id=CJBAAQAAIAAJ&q=%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9+%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80&dq=%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9+%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80&hl=es&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjl1MXDlZzvAhUL0uAKHdmSBk44FBDoATAGegQIBRAC (Bogodichnij centre appears as Богородичный центр)

All in all, I do not agree to the current label of 'founder of new spirituality' instead of 'new religious movement founder'. However, I do not want to start or continue a edit war and impose my opinion. Despite my lacks of interventions to the article, I am not verty satisfied with this new label and do not this issue to be ceased. As written in a previous paragraph, a debate or just giving reasons for why one label or the other are good options for me.

Regards,

--Yolanda95 (talk) 17:21, 6 March 2021 (UTC)Yolanda95

I would agree the association is part of a new religious movement. How much of it is new and how much of it continues previous traditions needs to be assessed properly by qualified studies. It's fuelled by religious communities that propagate John's belief system, "revelations" and spiritual practices. In that sense it has the structure of a separate church inspired by the old catharism as understood by them, but evolved in its idiosyncrasy from the OCSMG that John founded in Russia. Fernrivas (talk) 11:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)