Talk:JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: All Star Battle

NPCs and Stages

Do we really need to dedicate sections to non-playable-characters and stages? They seem very much like WP:Trivia, particularly in the descriptions given to them which are very much in-universe, and don't benefit the general reader. I think only the characters that are actually playable, or at the least are involved heavily in a playable character's moveset, bear mentioning, rather than listing every character who appears in a random menu. Stages also don't stand out enough to bear a particular mention, and could just be described briefly in the gameplay section instead (eg. Battles take place in various arenas based on locations from the manga, such as Dio's Mansion and Random Desert No. 34). Wonchop (talk) 17:21, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

The allure of the game is the way that it pays homage to and references parts of the manga. The 25+ years it has been published has established a massive cast of characters, and the NPCs are featured in a minimal way rather than the playable characters. If this was a standalone game that had its own list of characters, NPCs would be featured, so why does this situation make it any different? And the different battlefields also tie into this legacy aspect, as the locations and various items within are lifted directly from iconic points in the manga and these are also mentioned in reliable sources (nearly all of the Famitsu "Wow a new character" releases had the stages featured as well). I also don't see "Random Desert No. 34" on this list, so you are simply being dismissive for the sake of being dismissive.—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:15, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

The random desert was obviously a joke. Again, this is a matter of tailoring an article for the general reader, who may or may not be familiar with the manga, and not just the specific niche of dedicated JoJo fans. For a lot of people, all these extra characters whose only purpose in the game is to talk over menus aren't going to mean anything to them. I know it's bad form to use other stuff, but in general, fighting games don't tend to go into much detail about cameo appearances, such as what characters appear as Smash Trophies or who was on that poster of that one Marvel vs Capcom 3 stage. The same goes for the stages themselves, which have more or less gone without more than a glancing mention, if any, in almost every licensed fighting game. The only example I can think of where mentioning specific levels is relevant is Sonic Generations, because revisiting old levels was a central element of the game. That level of detail is generally reserved for the wikia type stuff. Pointing out something is paying homage to something doesn't mean explaining every little thing it's paying homage to. Heck, just say "it has stuff that pays homage to something". Wonchop (talk) 21:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I think you and I have a different idea of what constitutes a "cameo" appearance. With this game you have nearly a hundred different people having contributed their voice talent to the playable and non-playable characters. And, again, the stages pay direct homage to the manga which has been continuously published for 26 years now. The stages and NPCs have been promoted just as much as the playable characters.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:10, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Any other article would deem minor appearances as not worth a mention, so I'm not sure why this article needs to be any different. Also just having a voice credit doesn't automatically make you not a cameo. Otherwise every anime character list would mention Girl A and Ramen Shop Owner with their own descriptions. It doesn't matter if its an article about a game based on a 26 year manga series, it's still pointless trivia that anyone who even cares about these characters can just find for themselves (you even link to the blooming 'List of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure characters' article). And even if the stages weren't trivia (which they are, btw), providing pointless expodition of the exact scenes and chapters where they came from is.Wonchop (talk) 14:26, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

They're named. The List of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure characters article is poor and it just links to the character sections on the individual parts, and none of those feature any information that says "X appears in All Star Battle during Y". There is nothing on WP:Trivia that suggests that the information should be removed in any way. Stop removing the sections over and over under false pretenses. I have provided sources that show that they were relevant enough to be considered part of the promotions yet you ignore those. Instead we are at another disagreement over what is and is not relevant to this page like we were with Pokémon X and Y. Rather than drawing this out longer than it has to be, again, I have posted a request on WP:3O.—Ryulong (琉竜) 16:57, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Just because something has a reference doesn't mean it needs to be mentioned. I think the fact ASB has so many characters kinda moots the purpose of having mentions of them being in ASB for every description, outside of the fact they now have creditable voice actors. There's nothing wrong with mentioning some of these characters exist (such as how the Tatsunoko vs. Capcom page briefly gives examples on how some cameos appear during certain character's movesets), so you could mention how some characters such as X, Y and Z appear in certain stage gimmicks, but pointing out every single character that appears in a menu is just tedious to read. Just plonked an 'overly detailed' notice on there for now since that's the main issue with including all this information; there's far too much of it and not all of it is relevant to how the game is played, even if it is referenced.Wonchop (talk) 17:43, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I think this is probably more appropriate to refer to: Wikipedia:VGSCOPE#Inappropriate_content. Namely points 6 and 10.Wonchop (talk) 20:48, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Point 6 does not mention battle stages (equating them to levels is a stretch), and the fact that they were a part of the promotional work up shows they are relevant. And point 10 is not relevant because part of the cast is reprising their roles from the animated series (and the rest will probably also be in the animated series). And I don't see the utility of the "overly detailed" notice. I keep stripping information to get where it is now but you won't compromise.—Ryulong (琉竜) 21:15, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, no. Levels very much implies that stages are included. 'Stage' is literally another term for level, just as much as 'Zone', 'Area' or 'Vision' is, and fighting arenas are no exception. It all boils down to the fact it is not of importance to describing the game and going into detail about it is not going to interest anyone. All that's important is "there are places, you beat the shit out of each other in them." You'll also notice that point 6 is already kinda picky about unlockable characters, so you should really assume NPCs are right out.
Your point about point 10 makes no sense whatsoever. If you want to emphasise the voice cast so much, just write some prose along the lines of "many of these characters are voiced for the first time, or reprise voices from the 2012 anime adaptation' (the last bit doesn't make too much sense since it was announced before the anime aired). And as far as the overly detailed notice is concerned, it particularly states "may contain an excessive amount of intricate detail that may only interest a specific audience". You are very much just catering this for a specific audience, which I'm pretty sure just consists of you, unless you can find me a somewhat normal Wikipedier who honestly cares that Speedwagon appears in a menu.Wonchop (talk) 23:46, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

No one else was bothering to edit the page so I added to it as I saw fit. And all of these characters are the reasons for which the game had the appeal it did. I've removed the "Menu UI" shit from the NPC list. I've removed the description of the battlefields outside of what volume they are inspired by. Everything's reliably sourced. And unlockable characters are still something you discuss as part of a fighting video game so I don't know why you're bringing that up anyway. And I'm fairly certain they had produced several episodes of the anime while they were developing the game (there weren't any voice actors added for the video game in promotions until the anime was broadcast for some time). I still think that this game is unique and again I'm waiting for someone from WP:3O because we are not going to convince each other of anything.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:51, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

November

Are we really back to arguing about this, again? The voice actors are notable. From the fact that the anime cast was used for the video game it seems that these will be roles the actors will portray in the future. So yes, disagreeing with you is valid enough reason to revert considering that no other editor to the page has had problems with the NPC list.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:09, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

December

Well it's happened again, but this time Soetermans has decided that the entire list of characters had to go which is odd. I do not see how a list of characters at all qualifies as WP:GAMECRUFT, as if this was a game independent of any previous media franchise a list of characters would be allowed. And as the cast here is indicative of the cast of the animated adaptations it serves a purpose to list them. And I really do not see how a list of the stages is gamecruft. The stages themselves can be reliably sourced as they were part of the preview materials posted to Famitsu every single time they had a character update, and right now it's just a list of the names of the stages and the volumes of the manga where they were from. It is so minimal. Why is it considered cruft? Why is a list of characters even considered game cruft when this is a fighting game? This is such BS.—Ryulong (琉竜) 03:41, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Baoh

Ryulong, I'm not sure where you got the idea that "kore" meant "I", there, nor why you seem so confident about that. Anyway, you're wrong. Just check the actual manga, for instance. That's the narrator "talking". Erigu (talk) 04:44, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

In all the videos it sounds like Hashizawa is making this statement.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Also if you look in this dictionary (just type "@kore" in the search box) you will see that it is a rare but still used translation. After all, we still translate "Kono Dio da" as "It was me, Dio".—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

That statement is actually voiced by Ōkawa Tōru, i.e. the narrator of the game (and I don't think it sounds it could be the character talking at all, personally, but I guess that's subjective... although you are advocating a very particular usage of the word "kore", and it certainly shouldn't be the first thing to come to mind, in my opinion). Which is fitting, considering it was made by the narrator in the manga as well. Erigu (talk) 05:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay then. If it's the narrator in both instances then "This Is" works better.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:28, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't believe we know the voice actor for that character yet, in the game (?), so I guess there's still an off-chance that he's voiced by Ōkawa Tōru as well, but I would think the fact that sentence wasn't pronounced by that character in the manga is more than enough anyway... Erigu (talk) 05:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

There was a leak a few weeks ago that also revealed the appearance of all of the other DLC characters, but the release dates and campaign names were wrong so we can't be sure. However, Okawa is voicing Weather Report in the game so I doubt they made him record two characters.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Should we add the localized terms from the English early build?

Johnny and Gyro's Horseback style is now called Mounted 50.156.82.190 (talk) 03:47, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

It's not really a localized term but an alternate translation (that frankly sounds better), but we shouldn't really use terms that aren't reliably sourced.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:56, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

so wait until the game is released before including any translation changes. 50.156.82.190 (talk) 06:03, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

This one can be used since it's just a translation correction.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:52, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Large deletion of Japanese text

Wonchop, there is absolutely no reason to have completely removed nearly every single Japanese term for the game mechanics in the gameplay section. This is a game that came out in Japan that is getting a limited international release. Simply because terms are going to be identical in a version that isn't out yet does not mean that all of the Japanese terms should be deleted.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:57, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Also, I attempted to describe the actual fighting as best as I could when comparing to recent featured article Tatsunoko vs. Capcom.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:07, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

It is not so much about the Japanese than the fact the gameplay section needed to be trimmed down. Seriously, we do not need to explain that pressing directional inputs with buttons makes people do things.Wonchop (talk) 11:21, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Cover art

In the last few hours, the EU version of the game's cover art was uploaded and replaced on the article. I reverted, because I felt it was unnecessary, but it's been pointed out that WP:VGBOX says

English language covers are preferred for identification

This isn't a mandate that says "as soon as the game is released in English, the Japanese cover art should no longer be used". It says "preferred". The only difference is the game's title is written entirely in English rather than Japanese and the CERO rating is replaced with a PEGI rating, as seen in the following: Japanese version, EU version (I could also link to the NA version which has the ESRB rating). The English words "JOJO'S BIZARRE ADVENTURE" replacing "ジョジョの奇妙な冒険" does not change the ability or inability to identify the game from this cover, so there's really no point in replacing it just because WP:VGBOX says "We prefer English".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:26, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

It happens all the time with only minor alterations to the western cover art, I don't see any reason why this article should make an exception. Calamity-Ace (talk) 21:33, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

There's no point in providing the western cover art simply because it's western cover art when the artwork is identical except for the language. The Japanese cover art has served its purpose for six months. Why should it be replaced just because an English version exists? It seems like such an unnecessary step.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:35, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

The canvas size of the illustration is also bigger. But why have guidelines at all if we're just going to ignore them? Also, Template:Infobox video game states "If the game is not developed in an English-language region use the cover from the region in which the game receives its first English language release". Calamity-Ace (talk) 21:56, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

First, sign your comments with 4 tildes so you get a timestamp. Second, it's like five pixels' difference if that much at the resolution it's going to be used on Wikipedia. Not only that, the subject of the image is the same, it is just the different language text. And third, template guidelines are not hardline rules. There's no absolute reason the Japanese version cannot be used because the content is identical except for the language.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:14, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with Calamity-Ace. There is absolutely no use for the Japanese cover when every other VG article on Wikipedia has its NA or EU counterpart. This is the English Wikipedia, it's almost always preferable to use localized terms. Did you want to create an exception? For what purpose exactly? FrostPawn (talk) 05:14, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if it's really an exception to say they're identical anyway so why bother putting up an NA or EU version.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:06, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you're looking into "preferred" too critically? I think this conversation is going to boil down to if this was something like Vanquish's Japanese box, then there is no point to changing it. We at least want the artwork to have a title for identification purposes (although movie posters may not), but what good is that if its not in English? « Ryūkotsusei » 17:01, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Your argument is to look at the exceptions? FrostPawn (talk) 18:27, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

My argument is that there's no point in switching if the artwork is identical and for most of the game's existence it has not been localized. Localization should not mean that everything from the Japanese version gets thrown out of the article. I see that too often on video game pages. As soon as it's in English, everything about the Japanese release is just deleted or overwritten.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:48, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

This seems to show an entirely different cover, meaning that the one uploaded should not be used as identification for the game in its various incarnations.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Don't overwrite the damn Japanese box art with the other versions' box art. The game has existed for longer with that other artwork and is therefore better identified by it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:47, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. Got the impression that you were in favor of using the cover art you linked to earlier in the discussion, and since we aren't gonna use two covers to illustrate the same article I thought it'd be okay to upload over it.--IDV^talk 09:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

There isn't any uniformity with the alleged EU cover, and there's no real need to change everything just because of localization. My argument is that there's nothing to change.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:53, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

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JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: All-Star Battle R

When the game releases will it be its own article or just an extension of this one? FishandChipper 🐟🍟 15:46, 18 May 2022 (UTC)