Talk:Jessica Nabongo

Note to admins wandering through

The primary source of content dispute here seems to be among fans of the article subject vs. those of Woni Spotts. Both women claim a 'first to do' title, both seem to have engaged in UPE. Valereee (talk) 13:00, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

removal of content from the lead

Hey, @BubbaJoe123456, that's a pretty big removal from the lead without an edit summary other than "copy edits". Let's discuss? Valereee (talk) 18:23, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Sure - first off, apologies, that wasn't a sufficient edit summary. With that said, since we cite the source for Spotts's claim in the lede, not clear why we need to state the author of the journal article in the lede, rather than just providing a citation to the source. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 21:07, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Hey, BubbaJoe, no problem -- the reason I mentioned the author in the lede was because she's the one saying there's a consensus, and it's a point of major contention, and I didn't like to say that in Wikivoice without indicating who said it. I feel like this article, which has had a tone of disruption over this very point -- to the point it's had to be semi'd -- probably needs that. Valereee (talk) 22:16, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

The over weighing factor why I reverted was because the citations were switched out. Otherwise, I would have given you the benefit of the doubt BubbaJoe.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 05:11, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Looking again, the cite switch was my screwup, good catch. I missed that the CNN link includes mention of Spotts. What I had intended to do was trim the "Tori Omega Arthur, writing in the journal Social Media + Society, says that research indicates that Spotts was the first Black woman to complete visits to all countries.[4] part from the lede (since it appears below), but leave in the (cited) statement that "a claim that is disputed by another African-American woman, Woni Spotts, who claimed to have done so in 2018."

Thoughts on this? BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 15:21, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I think we could shorten it, but I'm not following your suggestion. Let me go see how I can trim, then you can take a look? Valereee (talk) 15:29, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I trimmed to what I think is essential, LMK what you think? Valereee (talk) 15:31, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@Valereee, thanks for the edits, made the edit I had originally intended to make, take a look, tell me what you think. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 15:39, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, I don't really think it's enough to prevent the ongoing disruption we've been seeing here. I guess I'm willing to give it a chance, but honestly the first time someone comes in and starts disrupting again, I think it should go back. Have you taken a look at the past two years' history? This exact point is the subject of an ongoing and wide-ranging war in the Black Travel Movement. IMO we need a clearly-worded rationale in the lead. Valereee (talk) 15:45, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

On second thought, one further edit...brb. Valereee (talk) 15:46, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Okay, added a bit, see what you think. Valereee (talk) 15:48, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Seems to me that, in the absence of a clear consensus among RS that one claim or the other is correct, it would be best for both articles to just say "X claims to have been the first; this claim is disputed by Y", rather than saying (in Wikivoice) that Spotts's claim "has been confirmed" based on a single journal article, which itself sources the claim to historyofblacktravel.com. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 16:08, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

It was exactly because I didn't want to put it in Wikivoice that I worded it that way originally: Arthur said it. And that's in an academic journal. And have you looked at the history over the past two years? Have you read this talk? This is an article that has experienced significant ongoing disruption over this very point. Valereee (talk) 16:13, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I get that, but the way it's currently phrased comes across as endorsing Spotts's claim in wikivoice. Just leaving it as "In 2019 Nabongo claimed to be the first Black woman of African descent to have documented visits to every country in the world, a claim that is disputed by another African-American woman, Woni Spotts, who claimed to have done so in 2018." would seem to me to be the best summary of what the RS say. With that said, I'm going to step away here, as I don't want to roil an already-simmering pot. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 17:26, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

IMO the current WP:LEAD-writing is too detailed, I'd make it "In 2019 Nabongo claimed to be the first Black woman of African descent to have documented visits to every country in the world, though this is disputed."

Btw, why "Black woman of African descent", what other kinds of Black women are there? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:28, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Apparently it's a discussion in Black sociological circles. I don't know much about it.

Well, that's I believe the third person who has expressed that opinion, so I give. :D Valereee (talk) 12:22, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@Valereee, something African_Americans#Terminology_dispute related, perhaps? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:39, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång, ah, I think you've got it! Valereee (talk) 17:42, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

protection

Is there a higher level of protection? I don't think this page will stabilize. Universalsunset (talk) 18:57, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

There are multiple, but we don't apply them proactively. If we see destabilization, we can request an increase. The edit referenced above isn't evidence of destabilization, it's just a normal edit that someone else happened to disagree with. Which is why we ping the OP to talk. Valereee (talk) 19:23, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok. Universalsunset (talk) 19:57, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

COI editor

This page has been substantially changed numerous times over the years. The substance of the page has been reduced to just make it about controversy. The longer substantive parts of my work have been deleted by people with unsubstantiated claims. I would appreciate if the article can stick to factual claims that have been published by credible sources. My entire book was fact checked by National Geographic and thus is an excellent source, not to mention numerous mainstream outlets. This is an article about Jessica Nabongo and the information contained within should focus on that. Catchme15 (talk) 14:22, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi, @Catchme15, and welcome. I'm happy to discuss with you. Valereee (talk) 14:30, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Controversy

I see we've removed all mention of the Woni Spotts controversy. This seems a little strange, as it's possibly what make this woman actually notable. I propose to add it back in. Valereee (talk) 20:28, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I've done that. Valereee (talk) 20:42, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Since you blocked me from being able to edit the page, please make sure to remove all unfounded claims from the page. Log6849129 (talk) 11:36, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@Log6849129, happy to discuss with you. You are free to suggest edits here on this talk page. Valereee (talk) 11:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

(The concern voiced in Special:Diff/1233768245 was about Log6849129's Instagram-sourced addition only.) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:37, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Woni Spotts have nothing to do with Jessica Nabongo. There is no reputable source online that indicates that there has been a "controversy". Nabongo is notable because she is the author of a book that was published by National Geographic and she has travelled to every country, every continent and every US state. I'll be removing all mentions of Spotts. Log6849129 (talk) 11:27, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Hey, @Log6849129, Nabongo and Spotts are mentioned together by multiple sources. Here, CNN says "Nabongo’s claim that she is the first black woman to visit every country isn’t without controversy. Another globetrotter, Woni Spotts, says she became the first African-American woman to visit 195 countries and territories after completing her 40-year mission earlier in September 2018." Valereee (talk) 11:37, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It's hearsay and not verified by any reputable sources. Log6849129 (talk) 11:39, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia considers CNN to be a WP:reliable source. Valereee (talk) 11:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Regardless, the claim of Woni Spotts traveling to every country is false. There is no reputable source on the internet proving otherwise. Are we now copying every unfounded claim from CNN over to Wikipedia? Log6849129 (talk) 11:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

This scholar disagrees. Wikipedia considers academic sources to be the highest quality. Valereee (talk) 11:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

That scholar is using the following as sources in her article: Instagram, Matador Network and a website set up by Spotts. Log6849129 (talk) 12:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

She's a media studies scholar, so it's expected that she uses social and digital media in her work. And the Journal is Social Media + Society, which does peer review. Valereee (talk) 12:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)