Talk:James Bowie/Archive 1

2005 comments

I have tried to clean this article up but it needs some help. I don't know enough about Jim Bowie to make any major changes. It was in the present tense and I changed it to the past tense. If you can help, please do. maltmomma June 30, 2005 02:51 (UTC)

• I took a look at the article and added a few tid-bits. Hope they're ok.

Tlincoln 8 July 2005 06:12 (UTC)tlincoln

Hall, email me at and let me know where to list the sources for the "line in the dust" story which I posted tonight, and which you deleted. I have sources, and don't mind listing them at all. It is a legitimate story, heavily documented in texas folklore. I can understand your needing to be sure that people are not simply putting what they want on articles -- but I am careful to only put in legitimate information. This is a real story, a documented and good one, and should be in the article! Thanks! OldWindybear

Hall -- I cited some of the sources the line in the dust story can be found in. It is a widely known and well cited story. Most historians discount the truth of it, but the fact it is so heavily carried, even today, shows the reputation that Bowie had for courage, and the effect that it had on others. old windy bear

For some reason, some folks don't want to accept Texas folklore as part of the legitimate Bowie history. It is sad, this encyclopedia is supposed to be about facts -- we cited facts, and sources, for the line in the dust story, and the story that Bowie, though dying in bed, fought for his life, and all of it was edited out. The age of political correctness hits the free encyclopedia! I give up, and won't contribute anymore. Sooner or later, you will drive all the better writers off...OLDWINDYBEAR

• I am as well getting frustrated from meddling amateurs who are picking apart this well written and informative article. If you have a background in Texas history then I can accept your historical changes. If not, then I would have to question any changes. Ex:Why were the list of books changed? Our readers might want to order those books and read/research them for themselves. As for the 'folk-lore' about Bowie, I have no problem so long as it is cited as that, 'folk-lore'. There is room for all versions and debates, that is what makes history so fun, it's not exact. I echo what Oldwindybear stated, I too hate seeing a fine web-source like Wikipedia degenerate into the hands of censor/editing dilettantes. TLincoln
  • I thank TLincoln for waying in on the meddling amauters. The article which was picked apart was solid historically, and the "line in the dust" story was cited source wise as texas folklore -- and one of my degrees is in history from a texas college, and it is certainly taught there in Texas history, which is mandatory in school there! With a figure like Bowie, who has become "bigger than life" in this country, folklore is important to explain WHY his reputation grew so! As long as it is properly cited! I don't mind the editing in articles such as the recent one on Aetius where good history was cited, and a resolution was reached which cited varying viewpoints in such a manner that the purpose of this encyclopedia -- to give valid history from a variety of viewpoints -- is done. We are NOT HERE to sell one viewpoint or another! Or cater to people who change the list of books because they don't approve! Where are their credentials to delete books? If this keeps up, it drives out people who contribute a lot, and leaves those with agendas other than free education via spreading information...OLDWINDYBEAR He had went heaven when he died

Date of Birth

Bowie was born in Kentucky, likely on April 10, 1796.

What's the evidence for this statement? JackofOz 09:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Non-Texas Sources Needed

Seems like almost all the sources are Texan, but Bowie spent most of his adult life in Louisiana. I'm preparing a new, corrected edition of The Rezin Bowie Family of Louisiana by Virginia Lobdell Jennings (Louisiana Genealogical & Historical Society, 1998), which includes considerable family background -- though not much on James himself. I'll pick out relevant material, including a citation for his birth date & place, and material on his early life, and get that included -- soon as I have the time. --Michael K. Smith 19:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC) (editor, Louisiana Genealogical Register)

Bowie and the Alamo

Why is there little information on Bowie at the Alamo? This article doesn't say anything except that he died there. There has to bemore information available than that.--LWF 02:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

-Because there is very little documentation on Bowie at the Battle of the Alamo once the actual siege started. I've seen little documented beyond that he was very ill either shortly before/after the seige started and was killed.

Infobox

This article had no infobox, so I have added a very basic one. Please update it to be more inline with the good quality of the rest of the article. Clegs 20:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

David Bowie claim

I don't think he took the stage name Bowie (directly) from Jim Bowie. I remember him saying in an interview that it was after the knife (because it "cut both ways"). A Geek Tragedy 17:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Phnemonia

He was take over by phnemonia when leading the texas soldiers in the Alamo, once sick William B. Travis took over the army. He died a brave and historical man, and as a great leader. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.21.120.89 (talk) 20:23, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Hey - would someone like to add a bit on HOW TO CORRECTLY PRONOUNCE Jim Bowie's name? In Texas we pronounce it "Boo-eee" but others pronounce it "Bow-ee" ("bow" like bow and arrow). I'm not up on the history of the pronunciation or how to spell it with the International phonetic alphabet and such - but I think it would be useful. TuckerResearch 19:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The disambiguation page for "Bowie" makes a claim about the pronunciation of Jim Bowie's name, which seems to me an odd place to put it. (It says he was "known to have used the original Scottish pronunciation".) My family's surnamed Bowie, and a number of my relatives vociferously claim he pronounced it like we do (i.e., the "Boo-ee" way), but I don't know of any documentation for the claim. Anyway, I'm going to go remove the (unsourced) pronunciation claim on the disambiguation page, and second the call for a pronunciation guide on the Jim Bowie page, as long as it's properly sourced. DBowie 21:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm a Louisiana genealogist and I know several descendants of Jim's brother, Rezin Jr. Everyone in that branch pronounces it "Boo-ee", and they say that's how Rezin pronounced it as well. I believe there's a North Carolina Bowie family not directly connected to this one (not since they arrived from Scotland, anyway) that pronounces it "Boh-ee".--Michael K. Smith 19:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Something official on the page in re: pronunciation might be nice. To further confuse matters, I know a family here on Long Island who pronounces their surname Bowie like that of a ship's bow, or boughs of holly. However, I've always heard people refer to Jim Bowie using the "Boo-ee" pronunciation. I've finished recording the spoken version of this article using the "Boo-ee" pronunciation, so I'm hoping no one soon finds evidence to suggest it was pronounced otherwise. Kevin F. Story (talk) 05:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I've read the authoritative biography of Bowie and lots of other information about him, and nowhere have I seen an explanation of how he pronounced the name. If we can find a source, then we can definitely add an official pronunciation, but right now there isn't one that I have found. Karanacs (talk) 15:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Bowie myths

J.R. Edmondson's 2000 book, The Alamo Story-From History to Current Conflicts, tries to clear up some myths about Bowie. Page 296 debunks the idea that Bowie fell and broke his hip while at the Alamo. Page 120 reveals the location of the Sandbar Fight, which was not on the Vidalia sandbar, as has been reported in other books. From page 120, "Around 1930 the Army Corps of Engineers dredged a new channel, called Giles Cut-off, that straightened the river above Natchez. Ironically, the original site of the sandbar fight now exists on Giles Island on the Louisiana side of the river, just above Vidalia, although the land is still owned by the state of Mississippi." Page 121 deals with the myths of his two Louisiana lovers, Judalon de Bornay and Sybil Cade. Karanacs 17:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

====Dear Karen: I believe the "Page 120" reference is wrong or doubtful, so I will show you why with the following newspaper article: With a bold headline: "Jim Bowie's knife kills major in duel"/ "Vidalia, Louisiana, Sept. 19/"Using a fearsome new knife, Jim Bowie killed Major Morris Wright in a duel, on a sandbar in the Mississippi River today. Spectators from Natches watched from the bluffs across the river as the major had wounded Bowie with his sword. Bowie's knife is of tempered steel with a handle and blade so balanced that it can be thrown as well as used for stabbing. Some claim Bowie's brother, Resin, developed it, but others say the inventor was James Black, a blacksmith on Resin Bowie's plantation." I was in touch with you a few days ago, but due to my age of 90 I can't recall what it was except that it was about the bowie knife and James Bowie. I believe I told you before that I have the true story about the bowie knife* and I am not kidding. I am really disgusted with all of lies and nonsence that is and has been published about James Bowie and his two famous knives. I have so much to say about the James Bowie subject that I cannot get it organized in my mind. I have already made corrections to the Wikipedia's Bowie Knife story, but I do not know if anything productive resulted. The true (TRUE) story of the bowie knife primarily rests within two books. I have done a lot of research on the bowie knife subject, and I trust my references. The true story of the bowie knife will never be available to all of the bowie knife aficionado unless Wikipedia will break down and relax some of its policies--which are so complicated and far-reaching that i don't kmow how anyone can get through the maze and recall them. I must quit right now without accidentally losing this work I have done, so I will end with my question: IS IT PERMISSIBLE FOR ME TO USE THOSE TWO BOOKS AS MY PRIMARY AUTHORITATIVE REFERENCES? ONE IS A 1998 BOOK; THE OTHER IS OUT OF PRINT BUT AVAILABLE SOME LIBRARIES. I DID NOT FIND IT IN AMAZON.

• I was told some years ago by a knife-magazine editor that the term "bowie knife" minus the upper case "B" is acceptable. Beaveroregon, 3-5,2oo9==== —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beaveroregon (talk • contribs) 19:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

It helps if you write in a semi-encyclopedic style, rather than insert your commentary and cut and paste theories into the body of the article.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

where abouts of the knife

has anyone ever heard of any legends as to what happened to Bowie's knife after the battle of the alamo. 66.158.35.253 (talk) 20:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Lots of different legends, but no way to authenticate any of them. None of the reputable historical sources venture a guess, which is why the legends aren't covered here. Karanacs (talk) 21:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Maps?

I'm reviewing this for FA, and I feel there are one or two places where a map would be useful. I don't think this is necessary for FA, though, so I am just posting a comment here, in case the editors think it's a useful idea. The three possible maps that occurred to me are:

• At the start of the "Land speculator" section: a map showing southern Louisiana, and perhaps southeastern Texas as far west as Galveston Island, would be helpful. This map could show the Mississippi, the borders of Louisiana, and the locations of New Orleans, Galveston Island, Opelousas, Alexandria, Natchez, and possibly the boundaries of Rapides Parish and Lafourche Parish, though that's trickier as it would look odd to outline them without any of the other counties outlined as well. If you do go far west enough to include Galveston Island, Nacogdoches might also be on the map, though it would not really be relevant at that point in the article.
• A map to show San Antonio/Bexar, San Felipe, Nacogdoches, San Saba, Monclova.
• Another possible map could show San Antonio and the relative locations of the Alamo and the missions mentioned: San Francisco de la Espada and San José y San Miguel de Aguayo, as well as the Concepcion. That's going to be hard if you can't find an old map of San Antonio.

Just some ideas. Mike Christie (talk) 22:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Bowie's scheme to import slaves

The original paragraph describing this in the article was:

Bowie made three trips to Lafitte's compound on Galveston Island, where he bought smuggled slaves and then took them directly to a customhouse to inform on himself. The customs officers offered the slaves for auction, Bowie purchased them, and received back half price he had paid, as allowed by the state laws. He could then legally transport the slaves and resell them in New Orleans or areas further up the Mississippi River.

This didn't make much sense since it implies Bowie just went to the customhouse and said "I've illegally imported these slaves, I paid $x for them." and so they were auctioned at half $x and he could buy them.

The source I found differs in some details, but makes it clearer how the scheme operated. I've rewritten the paragraph thus so it at least makes sense and is broadly correct.

Bowie made three trips to Lafitte's compound on Galveston Island. On each occasion he bought smuggled slaves, then went directly to a customhouse to inform them of the location of the slaves. The customs officers rounded the slaves up and offered them for auction at a cut-rate price; Bowie purchased them, and could then legally transport the slaves and resell them at a greater market value in New Orleans or areas further up the Mississippi River.

I've left the original references in, and the original details that made sense. I haven't access to them but I suspect the original references might be more authorative, and therefore might be more accurate on the fine points e.g. did Bowie take the slaves to the customhouse, or stash them somewhere and report the location? What profit did he make on each transaction?

Perhaps someone with access to the referenced sources could clarify the text further if necessary, and confirm that those sources are better than this one, or replace with this one?

The source I found: http://books.google.com/books?id=uFx26SAzB0AC&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=jim+bowie+pirate+slave&source=web&ots=v8L35rKual&sig=MniwspXHW8TukFhcsXbFAG81klY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result

The referenced sources in the article are Hopewell (1994), p.19. and Edmondson (2000), p.91.

Lessthanideal (talk) 21:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I wrote the original paragraph from the two sources mentioned, and I believe they are more reliable sources than the one listed (one was a biography of Bowie and the other an in-depth look at the Alamo and its participants). I would trust those sources over the details that are different in the other source. What you wrote, This didn't make much sense since it implies Bowie just went to the customhouse and said "I've illegally imported these slaves, I paid $x for them." and so they were auctioned at half $x and he could buy them. is what happened. The Louisiana laws were so messed up at the time that Bowie would not face any charges for his part, and would instead profit from it. The loophole was eventually fixed, largely because of Bowie. As for profit on each transaction, that would depend entirely on how much he paid for each slave and how much he could reauction the slave for. His profits would have been fairly large, as he effectively only paid half the value of each slave. Karanacs (talk) 23:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

How incredible. Thanks for the clarification. Lessthanideal (talk) 14:29, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting

Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether or not dates are autoformatted. MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Disadvantages of date-autoformatting

• (1) In-house only

• (a) It works only for the WP "elite".
• (b) To our readers out there, it displays all-too-common inconsistencies in raw formatting in bright-blue underlined text, yet conceals them from WPians who are logged in and have chosen preferences.
• (c) It causes visitors to query why dates are bright-blue and underlined.

• (2) Avoids what are merely trivial differences

• (a) It is trivial whether the order is day–month or month–day. It is more trivial than color/colour and realise/realize, yet our consistency-within-article policy on spelling (WP:ENGVAR) has worked very well. English-speakers readily recognise both date formats; all dates after our signatures are international, and no one objects.

• (3) Colour-clutter: the bright-blue underlining of all dates

• (a) It dilutes the impact of high-value links.
• (b) It makes the text slightly harder to read.
• (c) It doesn't improve the appearance of the page.

• (4) Typos and misunderstood coding

• (a) There's a disappointing error-rate in keying in the auto-function; not bracketing the year, and enclosing the whole date in one set of brackets, are examples.
• (b) Once autoformatting is removed, mixtures of US and international formats are revealed in display mode, where they are much easier for WPians to pick up than in edit mode; so is the use of the wrong format in country-related articles.
• (c) Many WPians don't understand date-autoformatting—in particular, how if differs from ordinary linking; often it's applied simply because it's part of the furniture.

• (5) Edit-mode clutter

• (a) It's more work to enter an autoformatted date, and it doesn't make the edit-mode text any easier to read for subsequent editors.

• (6) Limited application

• (a) It's incompatible with date ranges ("January 3–9, 1998", or "3–9 January 1998", and "February–April 2006") and slashed dates ("the night of May 21/22", or "... 21/22 May").
• (b) By policy, we avoid date autoformatting in such places as quotations; the removal of autoformatting avoids this inconsistency.

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. I'm seeking feedback about this proposal to remove it from the main text (using a script) in about a week's time on a trial basis. The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text in the prevailing format for the article, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. BTW, anyone has the right to object, and my aim is not to argue against people on the issue. Tony (talk) 12:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

GA

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Southwest?

In the section on the Bowie Knife, shouldn't it be the "Old Southwest", that is Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, etc. and not the modern definition? -Leodmacleod (talk) 16:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

You may be right; unfortunately Old Southwest is a redirect to Southwestern United States. Karanacs (talk) 17:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Questions

Very nice FA. I enjoyed reading it.

Some points I'm curious about:

1. The forged Arkansas land grants: when it says that the Bowies had never owned the land, was that simply because the Bowies had (knowingly or not) bought the forged land grants from someone else, or did the Bowies lack a legitimate claim even to the forged grants?

2. The Spanish-language version of this article says that Bowie had served as a mercenary in the service of Monclova during Coahuila's 1833 civil war between the cities of Monclova and Saltillo; is there any truth to this?

3. When Santa Anna dissolved the Coahuila government, did that mean Bowie and other land investors were again forbidden to sell land?

Pirate Dan (talk) 18:59, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

The land speculation stuff is a bit murky. For point 1) My impression from the sources is that the Bowies were likely the ones who forged the grants (they of course denied this), and the sources aren't clear-cut enough to make a stronger statement in the article. For point 3), once the Coahuila government was dissolved there wasn't a true acting government in place in Texas until after the Revolution, so there was mass confusion on what was allowed and what wasn't. The Consulation set up a pseudo-government after the revolution broke out in Texas, but they didn't do much. I know there was a lot of discussion about whether to honor land grants in the early Republic of Texas but I haven't read enough to figure out the details.

As for point 2, I'm not sure what that means. To my knowledge, there wasn't really fighting between Monclova and Saltillo in that time, so I'm not sure how Bowie would have been a mercenary. My sources glossed over much of that dispute, so it's possible there was fighting that wasn't mentioned. Karanacs (talk) 19:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you.

The Spansh language article is clear that there was a full-blown war between the cities, in which Bowie was a mercenary for Monclova ("en 1833 participó como mercenario en la guerra que se produjo entre las ciudades del estado mexicano de Coahuila: Saltillo y Monclova, a favor de esta última"). But no source is cited, and neither the Spanish nor the English Wikipedia entries on Monclova, Saltillo, or Coahuila refer to any such war. Maybe the Mexicans as well as the Americans were making up myths about Bowie? Pirate Dan (talk) 19:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is there a David Bowie Biography listed in the references section?

Buckley, David (2000) [1999], Strange Fascination – David Bowie: The Definitive Story, London: Virgin, ISBN 075350457X —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.206 (talk) 20:26, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

It is there to support the statement: "Bowie also is the namesake of rock star David Bowie, who was born David Robert Jones. Jones changed his name in the 1960s because he feared his name was too similar to Davy Jones, a member of already famous The Monkees. He chose the surname Bowie because he admired James Bowie and the Bowie knife." See note #107. --Evb-wiki (talk) 20:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

He died in Republic of Texas or Mexico?

When died Texas was still part of Mexico, San Antonio was still part of Mexico, so Bowie died in mexican territory. Texas independence was signed in Velasco treats after the battle of Alamo, Republic of Texas didn't exist still. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.153.217.238 (talk) 08:32, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I can prove I'm a descendent of Jim Bowie who fought at the alamo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.174.201.248 (talk) 05:23, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

The Family Tree would be more like a forest if one considered the De Wicks, the Colestock's, Bowie's and the Moore's. The latter I know nothing about, but how ever the Bowie's I know a little about your Great Grandmother (Do you know her name? Do you know her B.D.? and place of death?) De Wick was a Bowie and had a distant cousin named Jim Bowie who died at the Alamo. (Cool! Ditto can you answer the above questions about my Great Grandmother, can you show proof? Of JIM BOWIE'S parents. Your Grandmother De Wick (Muriel Colestock) is a little more murky as her mother (Can you find out her name? When was she born? When she went to our Lord.) died shortly after my mother's birth I do know her name but not much else. (Please give me her name,date of birth and death) I do have more information on the Colestock family though. By the way there is a passel of them living in the Dallas/Ft Worth area with the sir name of Robbins. (There are a lot of Robbins around DFW area), (Any first names you can pass along?) The De Wick family's record is more complete as the first De Wick, Richard (De wick?) showed up at Montunk Point, Long Island some time in the late 1760's or early 1770's.(I looked up the D.A.R. nothing shows up as the Pilgrims of De Wick) If one was interested in joining the D. A. R. or the descendants of the Pilgrims the De Wick records would prove there right to be members.(I would like to have rights to the D.A.R.) I have no proof that Richard jumped ship off Montunk Point as the is no record of him entering the Colonies at any of the Ports of Entry of that time period. Which makes all descendants of the De Wick family Wet Backs! (Very FUNNY!!) There is mention of the early De Wicks both male and female fighting against the British during (????) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.174.201.248 (talk) 05:26, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Request article move/rename to Jim Bowie

reasons: WP:COMMONNAME and Davy Crockett, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Bob Dole, etc. I tried to move it myself but the Jim Bowie REDIRECT page has to be deleted first! --Kenatipo ^speak! 03:15, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Scholarly sources often refer to him as James instead of Jim. I don't know that there's enough to support the move. Karanacs (talk) 02:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Children?

This article says that Bowie had two children, citing Hopewell who used genealogical records. A later publication (Alamo Story: From Early History to Current Conflicts, Edmonson, 2000, ISBN = 9781556226786, p 291) noted that the records were based on blatant fiction.

I recommend Davis, pp 682-683, who discusses the historical record of the children at length, concluding: "In the end this must simply be put down as an issue that cannot be resolved" by the historical record.172.249.8.109 (talk) 22:43, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

San Saba Mines

The section was titled "San Saba Mine," but the article identifies it as the "Los Almagres Mine." Both names are valid. I changed the section title, but if someone wants to change both references to be "San Saba Mine," it's okay with me, provided that you can decide whether it is the "San Saba Mine" or the "San Sabá Mine" (see below). Using Los Almagres neatly finesses that issue. (James Bowie's account discreetly did not mention any mine; Rezin Bowie referred to a silver mine on the San Saba River.)

Karankawa were Gulf Coast natives; it's most unlikely that they were ever at San Saba. Tonkawa and Tawakoni were involved in the attacks on the mission and presidio. Both might have been in the vicinity when Bowie visited, but by then Tonkawa were considered friends of the Europeans. Tawakoni remained relatively hostile. James Bowie described the attackers as "Tehuacanes" with a number of "Caddoes." Rezin Bowie described them as "Tawackanies," "Waccos," and "Caddos." Tawakoni were also known as Tawakaro, Tancaro, Tuacana, Toucara, and Tehacane. Waco and Tawakoni were related members of the Wichita group.

(The preferred WP style appears to be to use the singular of native groups for both singular and plural.)

James Bowie list the two brothers plus ten others as being on the trip. Rezin Bowie says two plus nine. The difference is Mateo Dias. It is more likely that Rezin forgot one than that James added an extra.

I have struck the reference to Karankawa and have added Tonkawa and Tawakoni, with links. I have added a mention of Tawakoni, Waco, and Caddo re the fight, with links. I have changed the number of people in the Bowie party to Bowies plus ten. I have added a link to the article on the Mission Santa Cruz de San Sabá and changed the text to conform. I have made small edits that make clearer that the mines may not have existed. Native "groups," not "tribes." Moved reference to "hostile" natives--Lipans and Tonks were not particularly hostile then. Deleted dead link to Los Almagres Mine and San Saba Mine.

Someone other than me needs to make a WP style decision about San Sabá vs. San Saba. It's trendy to use Sabá to refer to the mission and presidio; that trend began with Robert Weddle, the leading authority on the subject, who said that he added the accent to distinguish the Spanish ruins from the town of San Saba. That's perhaps not the strongest reason in the world and conflicts with conventional style re the river, county, town, and elusive mines. Though it makes my left eye twitch, I have dutifully followed that inconsistent trend, which appears to be the existing style of WP. (Frustration: so did the Bowies "set out for San Saba," or did they "set out for San Sabá"? Beats me.)

I welcome your feedback. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gjmokcb (talk • contribs) 18:03, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Most of the sources I've seen use Saba, instead of Sabá. In the long run, I don't think it matters which one we choose as long as we can point to a source that does it that way (and we can, either way) :) I think that Hopewell was perhaps not the best source for some parts of this article, and at some point I'd love to read some of the newer biographies and see if there's more that needs to be fixed in this article. Karanacs (talk) 21:01, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I prefer Saba. Anyone else? gjmokcb 21:05, 12 January 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gjmokcb (talk • contribs)

Allegiance section

Is there anything to support the assertion under the allegiance section that Bowie's allegiance was to the US even during his time as a Mexican citizen?

JulieMartinezOrtega (talk) 21:16, 20 February 2015 (UTC)Julie Martinez Ortega Feb. 20, 2015

Thanks for bringing that up. I removed it from the infobox (not sure when it was added there) because there isn't discussion in the article to support that. Karanacs (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Proper pronunciation

All historical works I have seen on Bowie give the pronunciation of his name as /ˈbuːiː/ BOO-ee, to rhyme with the French "Louis."

I am aware that some sources offer an alternative: /ˈboʊ.i/ BO-ee, but these are reference works which descriptively describe the incorrect pronunciation in this case. It is right for David Bowie, but not Jim Bowie. And these tertiary sources should not supersede, I think, the secondary works of history directly on the subject.

References

I have adjusted the intro accordingly, and put a reference in the text directly, with a parenthetical aside on the alternate pronunciation. TuckerResearch (talk) 21:53, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

You have it correct, as far as anything I know. In Texas they pronounce it Boo-ee. I've always heard the knife referred to as the Boo-ee Knife. — Maile (talk) 22:06, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I, too, am a Texan. It's Boo-ee knife, Boo-ee High, Boo-ee County, etc. TuckerResearch (talk) 22:48, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 December 2016

64.125.177.219 (talk) 16:47, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

por que anthony es gay con santana y tine un hijo llamado enrique garcia y enrique se casa con alguien llamado saul torres y se cojen y tiene sexo

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. 🔯 Sir Joseph ^🍸(talk) 16:48, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Acadia Plantation

Acadia Plantation is near Thibodaux, Louisiana (not Alexandria). Ally3.14 (talk) 21:50, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

And not only that, but we had Acadia Plantation created a year ago. It's on the National Register of Historic Places Listings. Thank you so much for catching this and posting about it here. — Maile (talk) 22:16, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Bowie's kids

Hopewell, combining historical and genealogical sources, provided detailed information about Bowie's children. Davis, reviewing the evidence later (pp 682-683), found that the genealogical information originated from a novel published in 1951. The historical evidence regarding the children is scarce and inconsistent. Better to say nothing.159.83.196.1 (talk) 22:48, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Edmondson, who referenced both Hopewell and Davis, discussed the evidence of Bowie's children on pages 291-292. He concluded that the question seems to be destined to remain an enduring riddle.159.83.196.1 (talk) 23:44, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Portrait

While the portrait is probably that of James, it might be that of his brother Rezin. See Davis pages 749-750.2606:6000:514B:AD00:9077:CB:C3DC:9B7 (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Pronouncing the Name...

I don't get people that continue the argument on how to pronounce the name Bowie. I am a Bowie, I am of James Bowie's blood, and my family pronounces it "BOO-EEE". I can't stand when people try to tell me it's pronounced "BOW-EEE"... I knew my great-grandmother, and she hers, and so on... we know how it's pronounced. Just wanted to air that tid-bit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.210.19.69 (talk) 19:39, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Vintage daggers

What length was used as a utility blade? Matthew E. Johnson (talk) 20:25, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Bowie knife not equal to Arkansas Toothpick

"There is disagreement among scholars as to whether the knife used in this fight was the same as what is now known as a Bowie knife, also called an Arkansas toothpick."

This sentence seems flawed. A brand new style of knife, which according to the article appeared first in LA, would not be called an "Arkansas" toothpick. Also the text links to the article on an Arkansas Toothpick. The linked article confirms the style but also claims no distinction between them.

An Arkansas Toothpick, to my understanding, has always been an long, symmetrical, double bladed dagger. It would possibly function as an actual toothpick with its long sharp point. A Bowie is clip cut, with a sometimes sharped back. They are not equal as this sentence states. All the Bowies I have seen/owned are much thicker at the tip and would not function very well to pick teeth. But, don't let my opinion stop you. Or maybe, back then, any knife was used to pick teeth and that's where the term came from.

Perhaps the author was trying to say Bowie used an Arkansas Toothpick in this particular fight. But, then why would it have been described as a "butchers knife"? As the Arkansas Toothpick article identifies ambiguities in the use of the name, it might be best to drop the reference or to say "possibly refereed to as ...", rather than stating they are the same.

Perhaps a knife and/or Jim Bowie historian should weight in with references. As it is a $112 book, I don't have chapter 8 to read.

WAR-Ink (talk) 14:32, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

History

The section James_Bowie#Texan_rumblings currently starts with:

Between 1830 and 1832 the Mexican Congress passed a series of laws that seemed to discriminate against Anglo colonists in the province of Coahuila y Tejas, increasing tension between the Anglo citizenry and Mexican officials.

My understanding is that the main issue was Anglos illegally importing slaves & the Mexican government trying to enforce their law against slavery. Pashley (talk) 00:22, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Also "citizenry" seems questionable. Were these people Mexican citizens? Certainly mostly recent immigrants; were they legal? Pashley (talk) 00:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

James Bowie

Does anyone knows james bowie' birth date? SpaceHero4 (talk) 10:37, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation

"(Some reference works refer to an incorrect alternate pronunciation /ˈboʊi/ BOH-ee[7][8][9])." the sources given for this alternate pronunciation do NOT state that it is an incorrect pronunciation. Stating that it is incorrect is Original Research and not allowed by Wikipedia rules. Some people pronounce it differently. People pronounce things like names differently all the time, even in the same family. Insisting that there is only one correct pronunciation, without sources especially, for a man that is coming up on 200 years dead, is presumptuous, pedantic and exclusionary. Also worth noting that most of the country, and world, do not pronounce it that way, not even the modern Scots, from whom the name Buidh originates. His Scottish ancestors may have pronounced it more like Boo-ie, but not exactly the same, there is a sound there not in English, let alone Texan. Similar thing with the Scottish name Kerr, which according to an Admiral Mark Kerr "In Scotland the name rhymes with care. Since many of the family have come to England the pronunciation in this country rhymes with car, which we have entirely submitted to.", but in the Americas we tend to pronounce it to rhyme with "cur". Worth noting too, Bowie was not from Texas, or Scotland for that matter, did not spend most of his life in Texas or Scotland. How he pronounced his own name is up for conjecture.

142.127.214.76 (talk) 21:23, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2022

I suggest that the last sentence of the last line of the Legacy section that mentions James Bowie Elementary to instead read something along the lines of "Various schools are named after James Bowie, such as James Bowie Elementary in Corsicana, Texas and James Bowie High School in Arlington, Texas." Maabonnet (talk) 22:31, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. TGHL ↗ 🍁 04:47, 2 December 2022 (UTC)