Talk:Jadovno concentration camp

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jadovno concentration camp/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Curly Turkey (talk · contribs) 06:13, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Prose

Feel free to disagree with any of the following feedback—it's not my intention to force a particular style on any article, and of course I may make honest mistakes.

Lead

• located in the Independent State of Croatia: "located" is redundant

Removed.

• located on the territory of the NDH: "in the territory of the NDH"

Changed to in the NDH.

• Established by a secluded area: unless it was beside the secluded area, you mean "Established in a secluded area"

Fixed.

• and the fact that some of these: "some of them"

Fixed.

• since 2009 and 24 June: need a comma after "2009"

Added.

• The construction of a new monument is planned.: As of?

Added as of 2013.

Background

• almost all of modern-day: "most of modern"

Done.

• modern-day: I'd shorten these all to "modern"

Done.

• "Italian-German quasi-protectorate.": Why the quotes? I'd drop them unless you have a really good reaon; if you keep them, the period needs to be outside the quote marks.

I've kept the quotes because other GAs that describe the NDH as such use them. Moved the period.

• subsequently implemented genocidal policies: "subsequently" is redundant

Removed.

• the Serb, Jewish and Roma population: "populations"

Done.

• within the borders of the new state: "the borders" is redundant

Removed.

• were then committed: "then" is redundant

Removed.

• cruely: "cruelty"

Fixed.

• The Cyrillic script was subsequently banned,: "subsequently" is unnecessary; I'd link as "Cyrillic script" rather than "Cyrillic script"

Done.

• for identification purposes: "purposes" is redundant

Removed.

Establishment

• located on the territory of the NDH during the war: "located in the NDH during the war"

Done.

Inmates

• included Ivica Hiršl, the mayor of the town of Koprivnica: was Ivica Hiršl the mayor of the town of Koprivnica, or were these two people? If Hiršl was the mayor, I'd reword it "included the mayor of Koprivnica Ivica Hiršl". Either way, drop "the town of"—we know that a mayor heads a municipality

Fixed.

Operation

• some up to 300 feet deep: I'm surprised to see this in Imperial measures, especially with "one kilometer away" in the same paragraph. At the very least, can we get a {{convert}}?

Done. What do you think?

• almost no food and until exhaustion: drop "and"

Done.

• was located five kilometers: "located" is unnecassary

Removed.

• inmates would be bound ... victims would be murdered ... inmates would be pushed ... hand grenades would be hurtled ... etc.: "would be" to "were"

Fixed.

• All of the pits: drop "All of"

Done.

• handed over to the Italians: delink—"Kingdom of Italy" is already linked in the article

Done.

Aftermath

• where bodies were disposed: "disposed of"

Done.

• filled with concrete by: delink "concrete" as per WP:OVERLINK

Done.

Death toll

• Paul Mojzes: who is Paul Mojzes? Why should we care about his numbers? A qualifier such as "historian Paul Mojzes", "social scientist Paul Mojzes" is needed

Added.

• with estimates of the number of Jewish deaths ranging ... with the final death toll most likely totalling: take a look at WP:PLUSING

Fixed.

Commemoration

• before being removed in 1990.: any reason given for its removal?

Added that it was just prior to the outbreak of the war in Croatia in the 90's (ethnic tensions, etc.)

Refs

• Sources in non-English languages should be marked as such. As you're using the {{cite book}} template, you should use the "|language=" parameter

Done.

• For books that predate ISBN, you can usually track down an OCLC number (e.g. for Pavelić)

Added.

• DISCLOSURE: I haven't checked the sources directly, as I can see 23 editor is an experienced editor, nothing in the text made me suspicious, and many of the sources are in a language I don't understand.

Images

• Three images; all have free licenses and are properly tagged.

———Curly Turkey (gobble) 08:40, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Passed. This looks like a Good Article to me! Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:34, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

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Claim that Tuđman denied deaths in Jadovno

So Danko Plevnik claimed in an article in Slobodna Dalmacija that Tuđman "denied that any deaths took place in Jadovno during the war. This claim was put forward in his 1989 book Horrors of War: Historical Reality and Philosophy." In his Horrors of War book (or Bespuća povijesne zbiljnosti) he mentioned Jadovno on four occasions.

1. "Osim Jasenovca, Drašković je spomenuo i Borač, Gračanicu i Kulu Fazlagića, koja »uporišta mržnje i zla« »po brutalnosti zločina nad Srbima« »ni najmanje ne zaostaju iza Jasenovca, Jadovnog, Gradiške i drugih ustaških kasapnica«. (p.130)

2. "Godine 1963. on će u svojoj knjizi pisati da su u NDH »po uzoru na konclogore u Njemačkoj, osnivani strašni logori smrti: u Slanom na Pagu, Jadovnu na Velebitu, Jasenovcu, Staroj Gradiški, Lepoglavi, kod Siska, Slavonskoj Požegi, Koprivnici, Đakovu, Zemunu, bezbroj mučilišta i jama po Bosni, Hercegovini, Lici, Baniji, Kordunu, Dalmaciji i drugim krajevima. Na teritoriji NDH ubijeno je oko 800.000 Ijudi." (p. 137)

3. "U svom govoru u Jasenovcu, patrijarh German spomenuo je jasenovački logor iza njemačkih logora, uz Jadovno i Glinu, označivši ratne žrtve biblijskom slikom. Bilo je to doba, reče, »kad je Otac greha, zla i večnoga mraka zamahnuo svojim smrtonosnim krilima i prosipao krv i suze, zločin i smrt«, kad su »kršteni ljudi bili izvršioci njegove volje (...)" (p. 598)

4. "Najdalje je u tom »sintetiziranju« ipak otišao Vuk Drašković, koji u svom bjesomučju u hrvatstvu ne vidi drugo do »kaptolsko, starčevićansko, frankovačko srbožderstvo« proizašlo iz »vatikansko-frankovačko-kominternovske propagande«, a u Kuharićevu apelu za istinom o Stepincu ništa drugo do zahtjev »za još jedan Jasenovac i još jedno Jadovno«. Da takvi neodmjereni izljevi književne nepodopštine nisu u suzvučju s cijelim orkestrom kojekakvog »znanstvenog« tumačenja, nazočnosti njihove bubnjarske nesuvislosti ne bi trebalo poklanjati nikakve pozornosti." (p. 603)

He doesn't even discuss the number of victims in the book, let alone claim that no one died at Jadovno. Tzowu (talk) 20:53, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Also, according to this article, Tuđman stated that around 25,000 people were killed in Jadovno: "Dr. Franjo Tuđman, u svojstvu povjesničara tvrdio je da je na Jadovnom izgubilo živote oko 25 tisuća ljudi". Tzowu (talk) 21:18, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I've removed it until a better source comes up. 23 editor (talk) 15:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Jadnovo.com

I've had a look at this site, and it seems like that of a community group related to victims of the camp. There is no evidence of an editorial board, or even details of the qualifications of the supposed editor-in-chief. It appears to be a self-published source and therefore unreliable. I have tagged the material cited to it, and will be removing it shortly unless it can be shown that it is a reliable source. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:53, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree Jadovno.com is problematic, but my citations are from a book by Ante Zemljar, "Charon and Destinies", fully reproduced on the site, and more specifically from Italian army documents, for which Zemljar provides photocopies, gives Italian archive numbers, who from the Italian army sent him the photocopies and when, etc. Also these documents are cited, although very briefly, by very respectable authors - Slavko Goldstein in "1941: The year that keeps returning" (he cites a couple of sentences which are identical to the Italian docs in Zemljar's book), and Zagreb University historian, Ivo Goldstein, in his superbly documented "The Holocaust in Croatia", where under the section on Jadovno, he mentions these same Italian army reports and gives the same name of the Italian officer, while citing Ante Zemljar's book as his source, so obviously he considers this a legitimate source Thhhommmasss (talk) 03:04, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

In that case, the book should be cited directly, with a full citation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:31, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Also, if the reproduction of the book is a copyvio, you can't link it to WP. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:40, 9 April 2020 (UTC)