Talk:Jackie Curtis

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Jackie Curtis Backstage by Gary LeGault.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Cause of Death

• NYT says drug overdose
• Other sources say it was AIDS

The article says drug overdose but the supporting citation says AIDS.

There was so much stigma around AIDS that it might be a cover up to say it was a drug overdose. Jamplevia (talk) 02:02, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Inconsistent pronoun usage

I noticed that throughout Jackie's page, varying usages of both "he" and "she" are sprinkled throughout. I feel as though this creates unnecessary confusion.

This source at University of Iowa affirms that both pronouns were used by friends of Jackie's-- however, Jackie's own quote (below that statement) indicates that they thought of themselves as "...not a boy, not a girl..."

I propose changing Jackie's referential pronouns throughout this article to the singular they, in order to a) make the text clearer and

b) bring it in line with Jackie's self-identification. Catwalkninja (talk) 02:07, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

I do not agree. There is no reliable source for such usage in this case. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:17, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Then at the very least, a choice between He or She ought to be made, in order to make the article clear and readable. Catwalkninja (talk) 18:37, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that I've linked a scholarly source which indicates quite clearly how Jackie perceived themself. When read, it's pretty easy to see the argument. Please remember that sources are for analysis and extrapolation, and some things must be determined from evidence as opposed to being directly stated. A quote from the individual in question seems to be quite valid. Catwalkninja (talk) 18:44, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The interpretation of any source, by any Wikipedian, does not create any fact. As long as we do not know whether or not Curtis would have advocated the use of "them" for h-self, it's out. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:53, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Nobody is trying to "create facts," and I don't appreciate your insinuation. This is not, to me, a matter of affirming Curtis' identity; it is a matter of fixing poor article writing. The issue remains a lack of clarity in the language due to mixing "He" and "She" throughout the article, occasionally even within a sentence (my initial edit to this article, which is what prompted me seeking out the University of Iowa source). My attempt to determine Curtis' self-identity was nothing more than one initial attempted solution to the issue.

Setting aside any argument regarding Curtis' identity, the word "They" also functions as an ambiguous pronoun for one who's gender is not certain to the speaker, and does not necessarily need to imply self-identification.

Yes, I brought up Curtis' quote, but regardless: if we do not know how Curtis felt, "They" is entirely applicable in its usage for ambiguity.

Do you have an alternative suggestion to improving the language being used here? A disclaimer regarding uncertainty, a separate option that is not "he/she/they," a large scale rewrite to minimize pronoun usage?

Lastly, while the source does not state what Curtis used, it does clearly state that they did not think of themselves as fitting a masculine or feminine identity. This part is not interpretation, it is outright Curtis' own quote. Catwalkninja (talk) 22:10, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I may have misunderstod. In what reliable source do we find Curtis specifically quoted?--SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:10, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

After reviewing the references, the inconsistency in pronoun use arises from the sources themselves. This appears to be the result of historic attitudes. Reading this it does not seem right to use the "he" pronoun, yet that is what many of the sources use. I think a section is needed on their gender identity, that summarises the sources which discuss this, being careful to adhere to WP:SYNTH. Then, with this section clarifying the ambiguity I think it would be OK to use the ambiguous pronoun "they" in the article. Polyamorph (talk) 05:17, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! It is my opinion that "they/them" should be avoided whenever possible in describing a single person. That English-language solution is grossly inferior to solutions in some other languages and can make any text utterly confusing between singular and plural if not used moderately and carefully. In this case, I have no concrete proposal, just words of caution. Sorry! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:10, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

There is no policy reason to avoid using the singular they. the explanatory essay MOS:GIDINFO simply states Some editors favor the use of the singular they in cases where gender identity is in question and no pronoun preference has been declared by the biographical subject. Other editors do not. My personal opinion is that it is better to use the singular they pronoun than to use a mixture of he/she. Polyamorph (talk) 11:38, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Essays may be entertaining, even interesting, yet they have no bearing whatsoever on article content, as opposed to our guidelines. Is using the highly perceptively plural pronoun for a single person less confusing or more confusing that trying (at least) to avoud it? That is the essential question here and everywhere, I believe. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:58, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

As I said, there is no policy reason to avoid the singular they. Polyamorph (talk) 18:04, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Nor to use it, especially not when unnecessary and definitely not if it causes any reader confusion. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:12, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

A third opinion was requested. It is my opinion that a section on their gender identity and the use of the singular they will help resolve the issue. YMMV. Polyamorph (talk) 19:26, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you again! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:42, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I decided to get bold and took a stab att solving this by using alternate wording; also cleaned up some other confusion. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:38, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Origin of stage name?

Can we get aything in here about the origin of Curtis's stage name (or legal name?) Jacke Curtis? SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:40, 16 November 2023 (UTC)