Talk:Isa ibn al-Shaykh al-Shaybani

"Armenia proper" and "Azerbaijan"

1. What does the term "Armenia proper" mean? This needs to be clarified. The only Armenia in the Middle Ages in the Armenian homeland (which what I presume "Armenia proper" to be) was the Bagratuni Kingdom. What is the point of linking "Armenia proper" to "Medieval Armenia"? Medieval Armenia is nothing but a WP:OR.
2. The term "Azerbaijan" needs to be clarified too. If it's used for the territory which is today known as the Republic of Azerbaijan, then it should probably link to Caucasian Albania. If it refers to the region historically known as Azerbaijan, then it should be linked to Atropatene or Azerbaijan (Iran), but definitely not to the modern Azerbaijan, because it is not the same as Caucasian Albania or Atropatene. --Երևանցի ^talk 20:15, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

"Armenia proper" means the lands inhabited or ruled by Armenians, as opposed to the Caliphate province known as "Armenia" which encompassed far more besides, and this most definitely does not mean just the Bagratid Kingdom. Other Armenian principalities like Taron, Vaspurakan, the various Muslim emirates were not part of the Bagratid realm, but still very much part of the "Armenian lands in the Middle Ages", which is what "Medieval Armenia" is a shorthand for. Granted, the article on Medieval Armenia isn't terribly great, but it fits the intended topic far better than the simplistic and false equation of Armenia with the Bagratids, especially since the Bagratid Kingdom as an entity only started in the 880s, which means that you cannot use it for the period referred to in this article. On Azerbaijan, Caucasian Albania is meant (linking to Azerbaijan (Iran) was a mistake), and I did clarify that, but then you reverted wholesale. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 06:22, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but Medieval Armenia does not equal "lands inhabited or ruled by Armenians". The term "Medieval Armenia" is too broad. It can even refer to Cilician Armenia. The Middle Ages "lasted from the 5th to the 15th century" and Armenia did not stay the same during that whole period. That is clearly WP:OR. If you want to refer to "lands inhabited or ruled by Armenians", the best thing you can do is either link it to Armenian Highland, which was generally accepted as "Armenia" until early 20th century.

Until the modern times, the only place called Azerbaijan was the Iranian Azerbaijan and not the modern territory of Republic of Azerbaijan. Why call Caucasian Albania Azerbaijan at all? --Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

On medieval Armenia, you have a point re Cilicia, but frankly, no-one who looks at the "Medieval Armenia" article from a 9th-century perspective is going to be confused, because Cilicia isn't mentioned in this context. Anyhow, seeing as the "Armenian Highland" article more or less covers what I meant to say by "Armenian proper", let's leave it at that. As for Azerbaijan, the reason of my confusion is the confused use of the name in modern sources: I too thought initially that "medieval" Azerbaijan, i.e. Atropatene, was meant, but then I remembered that Partaw is in modern Azerbaijan, i.e. Caucasian Albania, which is IIRC also the part belonging to the Caliphate's Arminiya province. Constantine ✍ 10:36, 7 October 2013 (UTC)