Talk:Irish Landmark Trust

Dublin Civic Trust and Irish Landmark Trust

Hi. Is there a connection between the Dublin Civic Trust and the Irish Landmark Trust? If so, what is that connection? And, if there is no connection, what does "operates alongside" mean to you? (Yes. Both of those entities are engaged in the protection or improvement of heritage buildings. But so are the Irish Heritage Trust, Irish Georgian Society, Heritage Council, Industrial Heritage Association, An Taisce, and several other bodies. Why are we implying a link between these two specifically? And not the rest. And, if there is a link which is special to these two orgs, what is it?). Apologies if I'm overlooking something obvious but, when researching the Irish Landmark Trust, I did not find anything to support the suggestion that the two "partner" or "collaborate" or otherwise "link up" on projects or initiatives. Or have shared or overlapping governance. Or funding. Or whatever. Guliolopez (talk) 15:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Best have it on the talk page so that everyone can see it...

1. Is there a connection between the Dublin Civic Trust and the Irish Landmark Trust? - I'm not sure what you mean by connection? What does "connection" mean to you? both are involved in architectural education and preservation in Ireland, one with a focus on Ireland and one with a focus on Dublin. The others you mention have varying mandates which might have some crossover with these bodies but I don't believe they are relevant enough to include. I do not have to explain why I did not choose to hypothetically include something in a one sentence addendum. The Heritage council is a statutory body, An Taisce has a very very wide remit and I'm not even sure they could define themselves, arguably I could have included the Heritage Trust but that has barely gotten off the ground and for the same reasons I could include a wealthy patron, the Irish Georgian Society has a fairly wide ranging remit as well and doesn't really aim to restore buildings (although I know it has contributed from time to time)

2. Why are we implying a link between these two specifically? - they do almost identical work and were established in the same year and are the two most prominent organisations who do it. If we were writing up an encyclopedia on with a small entry on the Irish Landmark Trust it would be remiss of us not to mention the Dublin Civic Trust in my opinion. At the very least being informed on the issue I wouldn't consider it to be contentious to include one sentence on them.

3. Apologies if I'm overlooking something obvious but, when researching the Irish Landmark Trust, I did not find anything to support the suggestion that the two "partner" or "collaborate" or otherwise "link up" on projects or initiatives. Or have shared or overlapping governance. Or funding. Or whatever. - You are suggesting I have stated or implied they partner or collaborate or otherwise link up and I have not. You obviously didn't do much research.

There is an apt usage of the term "operates alongside" in this book.[1]

The talk page is now longer the main article itself.Financefactz (talk) 18:28, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

It is very strange that this has been rates as a Mid-importance Ireland article as well.Financefactz (talk) 18:29, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Ah I see the majority of the citations are to their own website!Financefactz (talk) 18:35, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi. The tone of your response suggests that you had some problem with my question. Or how I phrased it. It wasn't intended to be a barbed question. Apologies if you took it that way. Otherwise:

RE: "The talk page is now longer the article". That is the case with many articles/talk pages. It is the nature of collaboration. Collaboration and discussion is generally seen as a good thing on Wikipedia. Certainly I see it that way.

RE: "Here is an example of the term used elsewhere". That book doesn't mention either subject. That the term is used in relation to other subjects doesn't support its use here.

RE: "Very strange that this is rated a mid-importance article". As with the talk page length comment, I'm unsure what point you're making here. SeoR rated the article. If you disagree with the rating, he/she might have some thoughts.

RE: "Majority of citations are to subject's website". 5 of the 13 sources (at the end of the article) refer to the subject's website (which is 38%). 9 of the 20 inline refs (in the body of the article) refer to the subject's website (which is 45%). These/this is not a "majority". Otherwise, I am unclear as to your point here either.

RE: "It is remiss of us not to mention the Dublin Civic Trust somewhere". I don't disagree at all. I just don't think this is the place for it. Certainly not in a way which implies a connection or partnership or overlap between the two orgs. If the Dublin Civic Trust is, to your mind, "more important" than the subject here, then a standalone article would seem appropriate. Otherwise, a mention in Architecture of Ireland, Conservation in the Republic of Ireland, or (perhaps most appropriately) Development and preservation in Dublin would seem like a great idea. I'm happy to help as needed. If you want to "partner-up" on where/how we approach that, (perhaps initially with a section on Development and preservation in Dublin) then happy to take to your/me talkpage to discuss.

Cheers. Guliolopez (talk) 13:38, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello. Sorry, only getting online at end of a busy day outside, and as I do not have this watched, only when I got to Alerts.

First, Financefactz, I took the liberty of indenting your comments as standard, just to ensure clarity - I hope that's OK. Second, the rating... I do a great deal of rating, so I hope my ratings are usually balanced, but I am always willing to review. With the caveat that being here at all implies accepted notability, Low prio is for items of local or lesser regional significance, or perhaps higher order but very recent items, while Mid is for items with a national impact, or substantive regional matters, especially if sustained over some time, and High is for paramount county- / region- / province-level matters, and more significant national topics (Top is a reserved group, for items of paramount national impact, or substantive international topics). And to my mind, this all-island Trust, with 30+ properties, some of genuine national status, a very real staff, and a solid operation over time, is a clear Mid. It does some of what the Irish Heritage Trust was planned to do, but failed - now that Trust is an example of something founded at a level which would speak to Mid, or even High, but which has had barely any impact, and could be argued to be Low prio at this stage.

On the particular point raised above, I hope a form of phrasing can be found to suit. To the best of my knowledge, the Dublin Civic Trust has no connection to the Landmark setup at all, and I would suggest that it should be mentioned only deep in the article, and with other bodies. I would actually think that the Civic Trust, the Irish Georgian Society and An Tasice (the Property Unit) have more in common, and the Landmark Trust, with its particular model, stands a little apart, but they do all try to preserve some historic properties, and should cross-reference each other. I also believe the Civic Trust should have its own article, but I think I looked years back, and there was surprisingly little information available in online sources, or in readily available print ones. Happy to continue the discussion. SeoR (talk) 22:16, 20 June 2020 (UTC)