Talk:Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup

Messy and off topic

The Human taxonomy classification insertion into the Haplo group tree box looks messy, amateur and off topic. What would be better would be if it could be changed into the Haplogroups for the other species of Hominoidae. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.6.115.62 (talk) 10:23, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Ancestry of Haplogroup F

The template nor the explanations of this page make it very clear; From the template, it seems as if Haplogroup F descends directly from the MCRA, and it doesn't come from A, B, C or DE. However, it could be meant that F comes from B which comes from A but is a different branch than C? Does anybody know which is the case? This needs to be more clearly explained in the article Nagelfar 22:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the template and the indentation and the text are all fairly consistent. I read them all to say that F is a sibling branch to C and DE -- ie F and C and DE all share a common ancestor, characterised by the M168 and M294 mutations. According to the Hg F article, F became differentiated from this common ancestor about 45,000 years ago.

This common ancestor of CDEF (properly called CR) is in turn sibling to Haplogroup B; and their common ancestor BCDEF (properly called BR) is sibling to Haplogroup A.

That seemed fairly clear to me from the article; but if you think you can make it plainer, then go for it. Jheald 22:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Haplogroups C, DE, and F are all descended from an extremely ancient haplogroup called Haplogroup CR, which was a "brother haplogroup" of Haplogroup B. At present, Haplogroup B is most frequently found among the Hadzabe and various ethnic groups classified as "pygmies," such as the Biaka and Mbuti. The haplogroups derived from Haplogroup CR are, of course, the only Y-chromosome haplogroups that are commonly found among populations outside of Africa, while haplogroups E, J, K2, and R1, which are derived from Haplogroup CR, are also common among modern African populations. I have heard that some Y-chromosomes classified as Haplogroup CR*, i.e. parallel to Haplogroup C, Haplogroup DE, and Haplogroup F as descendants of Haplogroup CR (the brother of Haplogroup B and founder of all modern extra-African populations), have been found among populations of the Nile River Valley.

It's interesting how in the article it further states Haplogroup "F" as "(GR)" & Haplogroup "K" as "(LR)". However, GR & LR are absent from the template. Is this because they are more clearly identified with modern F & K but BR, CR & CF are not as identified with their modern equivalents? I mean, I can clearly see how those latter ones could be placed upon a "tree" but not GR & LR in relation to those two F & K Haplogroups. Nagelfar (talk) 11:14, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

"The mutation of IJ corresponds to a wave of migration out of the Middle East or Western Asia some 45 ka that subsequently spread into Europe (Cro-Magnon)."

A very dubious statement! There were three main migrations of modern people to Europe before the end of the Ice Age: Proto-Aurignacian/Early Aurignacian, Aurignacian and Gravettian. The migration of Y-haplogroup I is connected with the Gravettian migration some 29 000 years ago. Modern people with Cro-Magnon traits were present in Europe at least 35 000 years ago and are most probably connected with the Aurignacian wave from Central Asia ca. 36 500 years ago. Centrum99 (talk) 12:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Multi-mutations on the Y- chromosome

What are the frequencies of multi-mutations on the Y-chromosome? Will that give us some indication of male human population dynamics in the recent past? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.100.190 (talk) 22:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to create a WikiProject: Genetic History

I have put up a suggestion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals to create a new WikiProject, WikiProject: Genetic History.

To quote from what I've written there:

Description

A wikiproject for articles on DNA research into genetic genealogy and genealogical DNA tests; the history and spread of human populations as revealed by eg human Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA haplogroups; and similar. Many such articles can be found in Category:Genetic genealogy and its subcategories, notably the subcategories on human haplogroups.

Rationale

• My direct motivation for seeking this Wikiproject was a recent run-in at Y-chromosomal Aaron, where I desperately missed the lack of a relevant WikiProject talk page to go to, to attract the input, advice and views of knowledgeable editors in this area.

There's a lot of general public interest in the proposed subject area -- eg the Y-chromosomal Aaron page is apparently getting well over 100 hits a day, and over the last 18 months or so there's been a lot of material added, by a fair number of different editors, mostly editing different pages which are particularly relevant to them. IMO, a central wikiproject would be useful, and also a good place to be able to bring WP:OR, WP:V, and WP:general cluelessness issues for wider informed input.

Wikipedia:WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology and Wikipedia:WikiProject Evolutionary biology do already exist, but their focus is much much broader. With regard to those project's charters, I believe the subject would be seen as a rather specialist niche topic area, rather out of the mainstream of those project's normal focus. On the other hand, I believe that there are a number of wikipedia editors (and readers) who are specifically interested in the subject, who would find advantage if there were a specific wikiproject for it. Jheald (talk) 12:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

If people think this would be a good idea, it's a target for WikiProjects to have at least five "interested" signatures to show there's some support, before they get going.

Alternatively, if people think it would be a bad idea, please leave a comment in the comments section.

Either way, please show what you think, at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Genetic_History

Thanks, Jheald (talk) 13:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

K descendants as "LT" in light of the discovery of IJK.

Where would the IJK segment of 'K' fit in with regard to K1-n + HGs T & S, and considering the further descendants of old K as "LT"? Nagelfar (talk) 18:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

E3b vs. E1b1b group

There seems to be an inconsistency. In the map there is a reference to both E3b and ExE3b groups, however in the article there is a reference to E1b1b formerly E3b. Does E3b still exist? In such case the article should include it. Was the E3b regrouped to E1b1b? Then the map is outdated. Alchaemist (talk) 04:29, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

"LT" and other nomenclature errors

I believe there are several nomenclature errors in this article. Admittedly, the Y-C Consortium nomenclature is confusing, but this article is ... confused!

> "Haplogroup NO (M214) 35-40 ka (minimal distribution)"

NO includes N, O and NO*. The comment about minimal distribution applies to NO*, not the inclusive NO.

Similarly

> "Haplogroup P (M45) (minimal distribution)"

Again, P includes Q, R, and P*. The comment about "minimal distribution" applies to P*.

(And similarly for K.)

The article subdivides K into K1, T (formerly K2), K3, K4, S (formerly K5), K6, K7. Nonsense! When K2 and K5 were renamed, K3 etc. were renumbered. Confusing? Yes. The solution is to mis-match old names and new names? No.

> "Groups descended from Haplogroup K (LT)"

Has a new UEP been discovered that is shared by L, M, NO, P, S and T but not K1, K2, K3, etc.? If not, the term "LT" appears to be a local invention that is *not* compliant with Consortium nomenclature. A similar comment applies to the article's invention of "GT."

Jamesdowallen (talk) 05:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Rereading this, I see a clarification is needed. I don't object to inventing new terms if they're useful and appropriate. But haplogroups must be valid monophyletic clades; the inventioins here like "GT" and "LT" are not monophyletic

Jamesdowallen (talk) 08:48, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups

The above article has been listed for deletion. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups. Wapondaponda (talk) 04:36, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

image

http://nadge.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/mtDNA-Y-Migration-Map-Spencer_Wells2-1024x524.jpg

Haplogroup Q

Someone has highjacked the page. The discussion of the haplogroup is too extensive for this page. Please simplify--Brout8 (talk) 19:57, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

File:Haplogroup F (Y-DNA).jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Add R2a

I request the editors to add Haplogroup R2a (Y-DNA) in the y-dna tree. Nirjhara (talk) 07:29, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Request for New External Link

To the Page Editor: Please be good enough to take a look at the Atlas of Ancient Genealogy and Modern Genography's new web site at http://ancestrydnamap.xyvy.info . This site could add a good deal of well organized and relevant content to this article (including interactive visualizations, downloadable databases, and a research aggregator). NB: The site is now completely up and running: lots of good info here for the data hound (7/28/12).

I am the editor of the site and I need the support of an independent observer to add the link as an external site. The site may also be used as a footnoted reference for article content. I thank you for your stewardship of this topic. I have been here many times over the years.

With Appreciation, (Utopian100 (talk) 13:41, 28 July 2012 (UTC))

Discovery that Y-chromosome tree is older than previously thought

Please note that this current event of March 6, 2013 is being discussed at Talk:Recent African origin of modern humans and Talk:Y-chromosomal Adam. HelenOnline (talk) 10:03, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Y-chromosome DNA

Perhaps someone might explain why there is a redirect from Y-chromosome DNA to Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup? Humans are not the only mammals that bear Y-chromosome DNA. William Harris • talk • 23:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

How can a Person have two kinds of Y-DNA Haplogroups?

How can Y-DNA Haplogroup mixing work, if every man has only one father at any time??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.11.89.16 (talk) 17:12, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Is some part of the DNA in the Y chromosome non-recombining?

This is part of the opening sentence of this article:

In human genetics, a human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup is a haplogroup defined by differences in the non-recombining portions of DNA from the Y chromosome (called Y-DNA)...

The phrase includes an implication that some portion of the Y chromosome consists of combining DNA. Is the implication correct? If not should non-recombining be removed from the phrase since all the DNA in the Y chromosome is non-combining? Davefoc (talk) 02:00, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "isogg2015":

• From Haplogroup F-M89: ISOGG, 2015, Y-DNA Haplogroup F and its Subclades - 2015 (8 September 2015).
• From Haplogroup C-M130: ISOGG, 2015 "Y-DNA Haplogroup C and its Subclades – 2015" (15 September 2015).

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 12:58, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "tumonggor":

• From Haplogroup D-M174: Tumonggor, Karafet et al., 2014, "Isolation, contact and social behavior shaped genetic diversity in West Timor", Journal of Human Genetics Vol. 59, No. 9 (September), pp. 494–503
• From Haplogroup R (Y-DNA): See also: Tumonggor, Karafet et al., 2014, "Isolation, contact and social behavior shaped genetic diversity in West Timor", Journal of Human Genetics Vol. 59, No. 9 (September), pp. 494–503, and; E. Heyer et al., 2013, "Genetic Diversity of Four Filipino Negrito Populations from Luzon: Comparison of Male and Female Effective Population Sizes and Differential Integration of Immigrants into Aeta and Agta Communities", Human Biology, Vol. 85, Iss. 1, p. 201
• From Haplogroup P1 (Y-DNA): Tumonggor, Karafet et al., 2014, "Isolation, contact and social behavior shaped genetic diversity in West Timor", Journal of Human Genetics Vol. 59, No. 9 (September), pp. 494–503.
• From Haplogroup P (Y-DNA): The island of Luzon, in the Philippines is the only known location of P2 (P-B253) and one of only a few locations for P*; it also features P1* (M45). See, for example: Tumonggor, Karafet et al., 2014, "Isolation, contact and social behavior shaped genetic diversity in West Timor", Journal of Human Genetics Vol. 59, No. 9 (September), pp. 494–503, and; E. Heyer et al., 2013, "Genetic Diversity of Four Filipino Negrito Populations from Luzon: Comparison of Male and Female Effective Population Sizes and Differential Integration of Immigrants into Aeta and Agta Communities", Human Biology, Vol. 85, Iss. 1, p. 201

Reference named "Karafet 2014":

• From Haplogroup P1 (Y-DNA): Tatiana M Karafet; et al. (2015). "Improved phylogenetic resolution and rapid diversification of Y-chromosome haplogroup K-M526 in Southeast Asia" (PDF). European Journal of Human Genetics. 23: 369–373.
• From Haplogroup P (Y-DNA): Tatiana M Karafet et al. 2015, "Improved phylogenetic resolution and rapid diversification of Y-chromosome haplogroup K-M526 in Southeast Asia", European Journal of Human Genetics, No. 23, pp. 369–373.
• From Haplogroup K2b1 (Y-DNA): Karafet 2014

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 12:52, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

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IMHO

I am surprised, that Nibiruans and Dravidians are/were not D bearers. Previously thought so. H and J looks like possible, but I bearers, in my opinion, travelled north from what is modern Indus Valley, over Caspian Sea, to Ural Mountains, where they met ice. Then they moved to Europe (I2), later to Scandianavia, only after LGM (I1). There are no enclaves of I on Near East, but there are G, so hypothesis of Anatolian rout of I migration to Europe is in my opinion false. Looks like mister K lived in what is now China, so called "Indoeuropeans" are Siberians in real.

Out of Africa theory: in my opinion mister CF and mister DE both lived in Africa before their descendants leaved continent, not out of Africa. C and D appears not only on East, but also among Cro Magnons in Europe, presumably they reached Europe through Spain from West Africa, so this is hard to believe, that they moved from India to Europe only after leaving Africa. Also a lot of E among Bantu people, not only Afro-Asians, this looks like in African context - as I know, in Eurasiatic gene pool there are Neanderthal genes, but not in Bantu populations. So, Natufian culture was of African origin (and I mean fresh from Africa, because we are all from Africa), together with G bearers from Anatolia inspiring both Sumer and Egypt - quite important for me, because I am working on fantasy universe based on these events, according to what mister A told to mister B.

Another riddle is proto-Semitic region, because looks, like Natufian E bearers were close cousins, but not ancestors of proto-Semits, presumably also E. One possibility is Sahara, second is Yemen from pre-Punt, pre-Kush, whatever name is proper, I cannot deduce it. Katepano (talk) 14:30, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Your great interest in the topic is certainly appreciated. However, personal opinions and theories are not appropriate for inclusion in the article, if that's what you're suggesting. Do you have valid sources and references to support your comments? Are they widespread academically? Such would be welcome. Greyspeir (talk) 22:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Visualizations

A map like [1] that shows the full current distribution in each country would help illustrate just how mixed humans are. The maps that only show the dominant group can give a rather misleading impression, especially where the dominant group is less than half the population. -- Beland (talk) 04:14, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

pronunciation

wye chromosome of igrek chromosome? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Herefordshirepopcorn (talk • contribs) 13:19, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Maps

The maps used on this page are seriously problematic. Compare the map of group F with the map of group R farther down the page and see where the two put F - one in Arabia (recent consensus), the other in India (which was proposed in the 1990s, pre-aDNA, and is now largely only propounded by Indian nationalists and people very far behind or biased in their reading on the subject), with a resulting difference in depicting the origins of all of the F lineage, both in these maps and in the global map (made by the same editor as the F map), which is entirely without reference and seems rife with Original Research. As much as maps can be a help to understanding, it is better not showing maps than showing maps that directly contradict each other, and contradict current consensus. Agricolae (talk) 19:27, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I gave it a month to be fixed. Now I have removed the problematic maps. Agricolae (talk) 20:25, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Outdated

The nomenclature of the haplogroups is in serious need of updating. The letter-number method (R1b1a2a, etc) has long been abandoned by the scientific community because it was too cumbersome. Greyspeir (talk) 22:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)