Talk:Houlgate System

Requested move 6 November 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:14, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

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Houlgate System → Deke Houlgate – Deke Houlgate was a notable football statistician/personality. Los Angeles Times biography. The "Houlgate System" was one aspect of that notability and can be covered as a section. He was also notable for other things such as coining/popularizing the phrase "Now we’re cooking with gas!" as a PR man. PK-WIKI (talk) 02:40, 3 November 2022 (UTC) — Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:45, 11 November 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 22:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Happily888 (talk) 00:07, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@PK-WIKI, DrVogel, and UtherSRG: queried move request Happily888 (talk) 00:08, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I suppose the 3 options here are: 1) have 2 separate articles, 2) cover the person as a section of the system and 3) cover the system as a section of the person. If you're arguing that the 2 topics are independently notable, then option 1 seems best. For options 2 or 3, we'd have to see some evidence of which of the 2 topics is the most important. Dr. Vogel (talk) 18:05, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

The person is notable mainly for various college football related things. He released the "Houlgate System" rankings in newspapers, and also later wrote a book The College Football Thesaurus that contained additional college football rankings, etc. The book is itself notable but seems to be conflated with the system. I'd like to write the article to discuss his entire contributions and properly state the chronology of the rankings/books. I think it makes most sense to use option 3 "cover the system as a section of the person". PK-WIKI (talk) 18:50, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I suggest creating enough of Draft:Deke Houlgate to attempt to show notability, but leave out the majority of what Houlgate System covers (but leave a placeholder for it). If the draft can't pass WP:N, then there's no way this article should be moved. If it does pass notability, there are two options: merge the draft bio into the system article, or flesh out the draft and bring it into its own as a full article.

Given how things are currently, I'd say this move would not be uncontroversial, and will move it to the contested section. - UtherSRG (talk) 19:31, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Sounds like a good way forward. Dr. Vogel (talk) 23:04, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

As suggested, could we see Draft:Deke Houlgate before we decide the move proposal? Jeff in CA (talk) 06:36, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per above, the Houlgate System seems to be notable in and of itself, and quite important as the determiner for the championship for many years. Since Houlgate himself seems independently notable, let's also flesh out the current draft into a full article. Per Duckworth–Lewis–Stern method (which is not just a section of Frank Duckworth or Tony Lewis (mathematician)) a similar example.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:43, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Also relisting, as this RM has a date of 3 November despite only being listed on 7 November, and is already "elapsed". Could do with another week at least.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:45, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  The difference with Duckworth–Lewis–Stern method is that the Houlgate System math formula itself is not very interesting or notable. What's notable is the fact that Deke Houlgate sometimes used this math system to make national championship selections, and that his picks were picked up by the NCAA records book.

  A better comparison would be David Rothman (statistician) or Jeff Sagarin, where their national championship selections using a math system are presented as a section. The article on the person being used as an overarching article for all of their football ranking contributions.

  Houlgate has several items related to college football rankings, not all of them the "Houlgate System", that are constantly conflated with each other:

  • Houlgate System mathematical ranking formula
  • Houlgate System rankings as syndicated in 1930s/40s newspapers.
    • These were pre-bowl final selections.
  • The Football Thesaurus (1954) picks for 1800s-1926.
    • These seem to be based on historical research and/or reporting contemporary picks, not by using the Houlgate math system to rank the teams.
  • The Football Thesaurus (1954) picks for 1927–1958.
    • These are post-bowl Houlgate System re-rankings in 1954 (+ supplementary pages until 1958) of the old seasons. Post-bowl picks seem to be published in this book for the first time.
  • NCAA records book major selector "Houlgate Sytem"
    • Lists the selections from The Football Thesaurus (1954), not the contemporary Houlgate System newspaper picks.
    • Early historical research(?) picks from the thesaurus, marked retrospective.
    • Houlgate System math re-rankings for 1927+ made in 1954, marked contemporary but actually(?) retrospective.

  There really needs to be a single page to explain all of this and present the various selections in context with each other. That's what I've started at Draft:Deke Houlgate @Amakuru.

  PK-WIKI (talk) 00:20, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Contemporary Champions

Champions in the NCAA book are from the 1954 edition of The Football Thesaurus. Have not yet found contemporary publishing of post-bowl Houlgate champions.

Contemporary champions were pre-bowl. Making a list below. These are additionally listed in The Football Thesaurus, and a note is made where the champion had changed from pre- to post-bowl.

  Y Merger complete. (table moved to article) Houlgate System#National champions

PK-WIKI (talk) 02:09, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

So 20th-ranked Alabama’s claimed and much ridiculed 1941 “national championship” was a retroactive selection solely by Houlgate and not even contemporaneous. LOL. Jeff in CA (talk) 01:09, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

It appears that way, although I suppose it is possible that post-bowl ratings were printed in some newspaper at the time. Haven't found any mention of that yet, though. A trophy was awarded in 1934-1936 (at least) to the pre-bowl champion, so those years' re-ratings are definitely retroactive. I'll be uploading scans of this book as time permits. PK-WIKI (talk) 06:13, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

In August 1942, the Helms Athletic Foundation published a pamphlet containing their retrospective picks since 1883. Don't have a copy yet, but the booklet was reviewed in various newspapers. The booklet also apparently carries the Houlgate System picks since 1926, and lists 1928 USC (not Georgia Tech) and 1934 Stanford (not Alabama). PK-WIKI (talk) 09:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

References