Talk:Holy Qurobo

Redirection

Adding Redirection

MB, Holy Qurobo and Holy Qurbono are synonyms for the Eucharistic Celebration in the West Syriac Rite. However Holy Qurbono is already redirected to article Holy Qurbana. But Holy Qurbana is the East Syriac Eucharist. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 01:47, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

MB, Please note, When the article Holy Qurbana split into two different articles, the user Br Ibrahim john did not consider the fact that West Syriac Rite churches like Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, Malabar Independent Syrian Church,Marthoma Syrian Church uses the term "Holy Qurbana" for their Holy Mass/Divine Liturgy - --John C. (talk) 16:37, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Please check below a few links to understand West Syriac Rite churches also uses the term "Holy Qurbana"

Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church: https://mosc.in/the_church/liturgy/holy-qurbana
Jacobite Syrian Christian Church: https://archive.org/details/jacobitesyrianch0000adai
Marthoma Syrian Church: https://marthoma.in/lectionary/the-sacrament-of-holy-qurbana-ch-25/
---John C. (talk) 16:44, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

MB, the West Syriac Churches in India use the term Holy Qurbana instead of Holy Qurobo because of their pre-1665 allegiance to East Syriac Rite. And this aspect was explicitly mentioned in the article. However, that does not mean that Holy Qurobo (or Holy Qurbono) can be called Holy Qurbana in a Wikipedia article.
User:Johnchacks has unilaterally moved the page Holy Qurobo to Holy Qurbono (West Syriac). It could have been okay if he had moved to Holy Qurbono since Holy Qurobo and Holy Qurbono mean the same thing. However, the additional insertion of 'West Syriac' in the title is useless and meaningless since Holy Qurbono itself means liturgy in West Syriac Rite. Similar move has also been done in the page Holy Qurbana by the same user. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 16:47, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

User:Br Ibrahim john, I don't understand the logic how come Wikipedia article can not use the title "Holy Qurbana" for the churches who refers their Divine Liturgy as "Holy Qurbana" ? Who can force them to use another term which is not familiar for the common people in these Churches? When you split the single article "Holy Qurbana" into two, you should have taken care of the naming of the titles of new articles. Now what was happened is, the term "Holy Qurbana" is restricted only for East Syriac rite churches and forcing millions of people in West Syriac Church who are also using the term "Holy Qurbana" to use either "Holy Qurobo" or "Holy Qurbono" which is not even heard of many of the lay men in those churches. It is totally injustice. Also it is going to add more confusions in Wikipedia articles. ---John C. (talk) 17:10, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Johnchacks, People can call anything as per their own requirement. You can call a crow a dove, a tiger a lion etc. But however that does not alter the status. Holy Qurbana refers exclusively to liturgy in East Syriac Rite. The West Syriac liturgy is called Holy Qurobo or Holy Qurbono in all the traditional West Syriac Rite Churches, including the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Maronite Church. The West Syriac Saint Thomas Christian Churches in India call their liturgy as Holy Qurbana because this of their historical relationship with the Church of the East and the misidentification of the East Syriac liturgy with the West Syriac liturgy. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 17:18, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Br Ibrahim john, Disagree. Whatever you mentioned above are biased views. Its NOT based on people's requirement. Its based on facts. I already given links to understand many of the West Syriac Churches are also using the term "Holy Qurbana". Then how does the statement //Holy Qurbana refers exclusively to liturgy in East Syriac Rite//become true?. Go through the links and understand the facts. And please note, there is no such classification as as "traditional West Syriac Rite Churches" or "modern Day West Syriac Rite Churches". How come any one can say that the term used in many prominent West Syriac Rite Churches to refer their liturgy as a "misidentification"?? Understand that the terms used in many Apostolic Churches have their origins from different languages like East Syriac, West Syriac, Coptic or Greek. Its up to the Church/Churches to decide which term to be used. Wikipedia has to simply follow that. We are not here to judge we are here to follow the facts. Here "Holy Qurbana" is the term used in many(not just one) West Syriac Rite Churches and hence we can not restrict that term for only East Syriac Rite Churches ---John C. (talk) 18:47, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Johnchacks, if there was a confusion, you should have added a redirection from West Syriac Holy Qurbana and Antiochian Holy Qurbana to Holy Qurobo. You should not have moved the pages unnecessarily and unilaterally as in this case. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 17:30, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Br Ibrahim john, First of all, even now the title "Holy Qurbana" itself leading to a confusion. We need to sort it out that first. Currently its a redirection page to "Holy Qurbana (East Syriac)". Thats only partially true. That to be modified as a disambiguation page having links to Holy Qurbana of East Syriac Rite Churches and Holy Qurbono/Holy Qurbana of West Syriac Rite Churches ---John C. (talk) 18:47, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Johnchacks, utterly foolish and arrogant attitude. You are misusing your rights. I have already told you that if you guys or the West Syriac Rite in India are using a different term other than the original term used by the traditional West Syriac Churches in the middle East, it is undoubtedly a misidentification or a misonomer. It is clearly explained by the historical change in liturgy of the Indian Puthenkūr Churches from East Syriac to West Syriac during the Seventeenth century. If you have a confusion about it, then that is because you do not know. If it was a cause for many, you should have added a disambiguation page, and restrain from moving pages in favour of malicious desires.Br Ibrahim john (talk) 01:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Br Ibrahim john, "utterly foolish"?- That's again your perception. I can not help in that. "arrogant attitude"?- I must say what you did/ are doing is arrogance. You are contributing in Malayalam Wikipedia also, right? Then you must clearly know many (or all most all) West Syriac Rite Churches centered in Kerala use "Holy Qurbana" to refer their Eucharist. Then how come you can restrict the title "Holy Qurbana" only for East Syriac Rite Churches? On what basis you are asking to Malankara Orthodox Syrian/Jacobite Syrian/Marthoma Syrian/Malabar Independent Syrian Church to change their terminology "Holy Qurbana" to "Holy Qurobo", a term which is not even heard in these Churches? It "was" causing confusion and it "is" still causing confusion, we should make the "Holy Qurbana" as a disambiguation page. ---John C. (talk) 01:52, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Johnchacks, let me clear you misunderstandings.
first: to which dialect the word 'Qurbana' belongs to?
Second, is there a single traditional West Syriac Church that is, among the West Syriac Churches in the middle East, who uses the term 'Holy Qurbana' instead of 'Holy Qurobo'??
According to your argument, the West Syriac Churches in India call their liturgy as Holy Qurbana and for that reason the article for liturgy of Edessan Rite should be renamed. However, 'Holy Qurbana (East Syriac)' which is equivalent to 'Eucharist in East Syriac Rite (East Syriac)' . This is nothing other than foolishness.
Now about the West Syriac Rite Churches in India: none of them were initially West Syriac and they all used to belong to East Syriac Rite before 1665 and the Coonan Cross Oath. So they have misidentified the West Syriac Eucharist with the East Syriac one. To solve any confusion that may arise due to this usage, there can be a disambiguation page. You should have also known that the Latin Catholics in Kerala often call their Holy Mass as Holy Qurbana due to their cultural association with the East Syriac Catholics. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 02:08, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Br Ibrahim john, No, Latin Rite Catholic Church in Kerala is not officially referring its "Holy Mass" as "Holy Qurbana". But that is not the case with the West Syriac Rite Churches like Malankara Orthodox Syrian/Jacobite Syrian/Marthoma Syrian/Malabar Independent Syrian Church. They officially use the term "Holy Qurbana". But what you have done is you restricted the usage of that term in Wikipedia only for East Syriac Churches and forcing these Churches/Church members or any editor to use some other terms to refer these Churches Eucharists !! So that need to be reconsidered first and the page 'Holy Qurbana' should make as a disambiguation page. I can not agree with your statement //So they have misidentified the West Syriac Eucharist with the East Syriac one//. If its a misidentification, they would have corrected it centuries back. ---John C. (talk) 02:59, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Johnchacks, there are a number of latin Catholics who often call their liturgy as Holy Qurbana in latin Rite. And you can ofcourse create a disambiguation page, but however the title Holy Qurbana (East Syriac) and Holy Qurbono (West Syriac) is foolish and confusing. First of all you should understand that Wikipedia is not just for Indian West Syriacs who have misidentified their Holy Qurobo with the eucharist in East Syriac Rite. If the West Syriacs in India want to call a peacock as a tiger and so on, we cannot consider their claims.

• Holy Mass means Eucharist in Latin Rite
• Divine Liturgy is the Eucharist in Byzantine Rites.
• Holy Qurobo is the Syro-Antiochene Eucharist.
• Holy Qurbana is the Eucharist in East Syriac Rite.

I am not interested in further discussion as you are doing things undiscussed out of your own claims.

Br Ibrahim john (talk) 03:26, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Br Ibrahim john, I already clearly mentioned even if some Latin Catholics referring their liturgy as Holy Qurbana - its not the official usage. Its not the case with the Churches I mentioned. They officially refer their Eucharist as 'Holy Qurbana'. Then why are you again bringing that example. Yes, a disambiguation page is required at the earliest. That is for "Holy Qurbana". For your kind information, you can not discard/sideline Indian West Syriac community, they are also a major part of Syriac Christianity. Don't keep on say "misidentified", "misidentified" by West Syriac Churches in India, they deliberately referring their Eucharist as "Holy Qurbana". The term "Holy Qurobo" is not even used in clergies of these Churches. And on your peacock & tiger example: I am not telling to call a peacock as a tiger, I am insisting to call a tiger as tiger. I am also not interested in further discussion without fact and figures. There is no point in talking further without a table having list of Churches officially using the term Holy Qurbana/Holy Qurbono/Holy Qurobo and which rite they fall into.. Thanks ---John C. (talk) 04:04, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Not interested in further discussion. I have expressed my stand clearly. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 04:16, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

No issues. Anyway I would be initiating a discussion from my end for making the title 'Holy Qurbana' as a disambiguation page. Even now its a redirection page to the article only related to Holy Qurbana of East Syriac Rite Churches which is not completely true and misleading for the fact/reason I mentioned above--John C. (talk) 04:38, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Undiscussed page move

Johnchacks, you have moved the page without holding a discussion. I oppose the move since there is no requirement to rename the article from Holy Qurobo to Holy Qurbono (West Syriac). When saying Holy Qurobo or Holy Qurbono, it is understood that it is West Syriac. Then what is the requirement for further detail in the title??? Br Ibrahim john (talk) 16:07, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Br Ibrahim john, refer above talk section, lets have the discussion at a single place---John C. (talk) 17:13, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Title of the Article

The title of the article to be changed as "Holy Qurbono". "Holy Qurobo" and "Holy Qurbana (West Syriac)" should be redirect pages.---John C. (talk) 08:22, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

I oppose in part. The title should remain Holy Qurobo as it is more popular among the West Syriac Churches in the Middle East (the homeland of the Rite). Holy Qurbono and Holy Qurbana (West Syriac Rite) should be redirect pages. Currently, there is a disambiguation page for Holy Qurbana to resolve 'confusion', if that is a case, for Indian users. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 08:32, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Okay, now things looks fine with the new disambiguation page. It removes the confusion introduced . Also agree on the suggestion on redirect pages.---John C. (talk) 08:41, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 13:26, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

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