Talk:Hiwassee River

Untitled

John Muir Trail linked to John Muir Trail, which is in California. Couldn't find a page for this John Muir Trail, so renamed link, now its a dead link though. Pfly 04:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Made a page for the TN one.... also adding a image of the river to my todo list. --ChristopherM 04:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Snail Darter

Should we include a link to the Snail darter controversy, wince this is where they ended up? Llamabr (talk) 20:33, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

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Needs reliable sources

This article needs Reliable Sources and citations for every paragraph, especially for claims about the competitive history in the region between the Muscogee Creek and Cherokee. It is unusual to see such an article with so few citations and sources.Parkwells (talk) 22:09, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

User:Parkwells, I would advocate we remove it all. It's from anon 75.90.51.175, but I'm confident that is just Talamachusee (who has identified himself as Richard Thornton in Talk:Chisca and possibly elsewhere). Same time period, same content: revisionist insertion of southern Muskogean peoples into the Appalachian region (i.e. the Apalachee, who were known to be in the Tallahassee area), clear slant against Cherokee, and original spellings such as "Tama-tli" instead of "Tomotley" because the former looks vaguely Mesoamerican. The edit history reveals that articles with few or no citations/sources are the norm for him.

Not just WP:unsourced, but I believe the lack of citations just obscures that it's his own WP:Verifiability#Self-published_sources. I'd argue anything he's written here or elsewhere that's similarly unsourced is just him trying to replicate his various blogs (Formerly People of One Fire, now Apalache Research as discussed in the Chisca talk page, replicated on sites such as Access Genealogy and The Examiner) in wikipedia, inappropriately. Even when he leaves his fringe theories on Mesoamerican & Andean connections to Southeastern natives out of it. Yesterday I reverted his 2010 contributions to Nottely River, maybe prematurely and definitely without consensus. Is it warranted to for me to go through his history and cull unsourced edits that haven't already been fixed over the years? Seemingly mostly lingering on pages for various rivers and such.

Y'all have dealt with him, do you agree with the above? User:Doug Weller User:Heironymous Rowe User:Carlstak

Thanks,

Iaksones (talk) 17:05, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I’m very happy with that. Go for it. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 17:47, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

There were fewer remaining bad contributions from him than I thought. Searched article text for some of his favorite buzzwords like Itsate and Hitchiti and Apalache with one e, and I saw nothing out of order. Iaksones (talk) 18:45, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely. Glad to see you do this. I'll chip in if I can find some time. Carlstak (talk) 20:11, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

User:laksones User:Doug Weller User:Carlstak-

I agree - lacking reliable cites for the material, we can delete it. Thanks for your review and work, laksones. I had seen Richard Thornton's comments elsewhere but did not know as much about him and his writing.

I recommend Pekka Hämäläinen's 2022 history, "Indigenous Continent: The Epic Contest for North America"; still reading. A view from the indigenous peoples. Will let you know if I find material related to this discussion about Cherokee and Muskogee competition.Parkwells (talk) 15:10, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, family is always saying I'm hard to buy Christmas gifts for--I might have to pass along that book name!

I have read that Muskogean peoples, from the Koasati in the TN River Valley and Muscogee proper in the Georgia Piedmont (but not the Apalachee or Hitchiti as Thornton loves to believe), existed in what would become mostly Cherokee areas later, I guess by the 18th century or so. Exactly when and to what extent, I'd love to read more on

Iaksones (talk) 16:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

It's a big book (available in paperback) and fascinating. He uses a wide range of published and new sources, including oral histories. He stresses the indigenous peoples' changing strategies and tactics in their own pre-Colombian empires, and later strategies for managing the colonists (long after colonists' versions referred to conquering the Indians), and later the US government. Based at Oxford University, he has published two other books on similar themes: The Comanche Empire (2008; won the Bancroft Prize and several others), and emphasized their dominance through an equestrian empire. Another is Lakota America: A New History of Indigenous Power (2019).

Another book of interest is "The Heartbeat of Wounded Knee: Native America from 1890 to the Present" (2019), by David Treuer (Ojibwe), better known as a novelist. Have not read this yet. Parkwells (talk) 20:19, 5 December 2023 (UTC)