Talk:Halaib Triangle/Archive 1

Archive 1

Map

Searching high and low failed to yield a decent map of the Hala'ib Triangle showing towns, cliams, borders etc., so for the time being I've used the maps of Sudan & Egypt, which show this infomation. Obviously this isn't ideal however, so if there's a map out there, please stick it on. Grunners 23:23, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, a new map would be preferable. It's very difficult to locate the triangle at the size of the thumbnail on the page. Pimlottc 20:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I have travelled in the area just north of the Haba'ib Triangle three or four times in the last few years. The reason there is no decent map is that until recently there has basically been nothing there, the whole coast is a strip of desert between the Red Sea and the mountains 100km or so (varies) inland. There is virtually no water (99.9% of the area has no vegetation), and the native population consists of only a few very scattered groups of desparately poor people living in mainly in dodgy shacks. In the last few years, with the opening of Marsa Alam airfield to civil traffic, hotels are beginning to pop up along the coast and are spreading down the coast (there is great reef diving in the Red Sea, and guaranteed sun). These hotels are (sadly) not owned or staffed by locals, and are protected by the Egyptian army. Due to the disputes, the remote location, and the presence of bandits inland the Triangle is not yet developed. Gliderman (talk) 15:57, 26 July 2008 (UTC) i will leave that controversial part so when you read it you will understand that you made a huge mistake although i gave you a lot of advices but you were hard headded Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 10:06, 14 July 2010 (UTC) abd elhamid elsayed

Speaking of maps, someone seems to have deleted the ones used by this page and all the maps here and on the Sudanese regional pages display the triangle as part of Sudan. Can we get some protection here? -114.91.67.253 (talk) 08:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Bir Tawil (unclaimed area?)

There appears to be a small piece of unclaimed territory to the southwest of the triangle - anyone know anything about this, is it worth mentioning in the article, is it notable, etc —Random832 15:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That's something I've been wondering about for years. I used to imagine it as land that each party would say belonged to the other, making it a lawless area. Any information on claims and actual control would be appreciated. – Wikipeditor 18:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[1] seems to indicate it is administered by Egypt - but, then, it claims the triangle itself is administered by Sudan, too. —Random832 19:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That piece of land is called Bir Tawil or transliterated more exactly, like on some maps, Bi'r Tawīl, named after a water well in the center that area (detailed maps and sat images show no settlements, so the area is probably uninhabited). It was always shown as part of Egypt on maps, and is also in fact controlled by Egypt, although probably claimed by Sudan since it is south of 22° parallel. It also contains the southernmost point of Egypt, since it is the only Egyptian territory south of the 22° parallel. I bothered to measure around there with Wikimapia Geotools. The area is between 46 km (in the south) and 95 km (in the north) long east-west, and between 26 and 31 km wide north-south. It has an area of 2060 km². The southernmost point appears to be 21°43′30″N 33°33′50″E.--Ratzer (talk) 19:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

After an e-mail exchange with a Wikimapia-contributor from Egypt, I come to this conclusion: Egypt claims the original border from 1899, the 22nd circle of latitute, which would place the Hala'ib Triangle within Egypt and the Bir Tawil area within Sudan. Sudan however claims the administrative border of 1902, which would put Hala'ib within Sudan, and Bir Tawil within Egypt. Which means, both countries claim Hala'ib, and no country claims Bir Tawil (which is only a tenth of the size of Hala'ib and is landlocked). It seems unter international law there is no legal basis for Sudan or Egypt to claim both territories. Then this would be the only land area of the world outside Antarctica which is not claimed by any country. It would also be difficult if not impossible for any third country to claim the area, since it is accessible only through Sudan or Egypt.--Ratzer (talk) 15:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The official version of the government of Egypt is : no claim of any land south of the 22 parallel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdelhamidelsayed (talk • contribs) 19:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Wadi Halfa Salient

Besides Hala'ib Triangle and Bir Tawil, the only other place where the Egypt-Sudanese border does not unanimously follow the 22nd circle of latitude is the Wadi Halfa Salient, a finger shaped area obviously belonging to Sudan and protruding northward 25 km into Egypt, along the Nile River, or Lake Nubia/Lake Nasser, 9 km wide, area about 210 km², land area (only along the eastern banks>) about 30 km² (measured from Wikimapia with Geotools). Most of the area got flooded in 1964 when Lake Nasser was created by the Aswan dam. I don't know if the original 1899 border followed the 22nd circle of latitude also here, or if the area was added to Sudan in 1902 by the new administrative border, or later. The northernmost point of the area (and of Sudan, if the Hala'ib Triangle is not recognized to be Sudanese) is located at 22°13'19"N 31°28'22"E.--Ratzer (talk) 15:46, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The town or city of Faras, now flooded by Lake Nasser, appeared to fall within that area.Ratzer (talk) 21:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

More towns in the Wadi Halfa Salient that disappeared in Lake Nasser are listed here: [2]--Ratzer (talk) 21:26, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Highly detailed map of the area from before flooding: [3]--Ratzer (talk) 10:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The Needed Citations

I see that there are citations needed for the words from the Sudanese president about the sudanese not making any concessions. It's said to be according to the AP. After searching the AP archives I haven't found anything, but that could be because I'm not very good in this. What I on the other can do is find what seems to be the original quotes which is this url:

http://www.amcham.org.eg/publications/businessmonthly/october%2002/reports(machakosstallsegyptiannilefearseased).asp

In it it says that the Sudanese president had said it in a interview with the Sudanese newspaper al-sahafi al-dawli,august 17 2002. I don't know how to insert a citation so please, anybody that knows how to please fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.144.91.52 (talk) 20:33, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Article moved without discussion

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus not to move. Ucucha 18:50, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

---

Hala'ib triangle → Halayeb Triangle —

• Running move dispute :: please get it settled. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:50, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose move - In April, an editor moved the article Hala'ib Triangle to Halayeb Triangle without discussion here. A Google search found that there were over 145,000+ hits for "Hala'ib Triangle" compared to only 1,240 for "Halayeb Triangle", indicating that "Hala'ib Triangle" is, by far, the more common name. Because of this I requested that the page be moved back where it was, and this has been done.

  If anyone believes that "Halayeb Triangle" is a better name for the article, please make the arguments for that move here. If the consensus of the discussion agrees, then it can be requested that the article be moved again, but please do not attempt to do so without having consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

• this is abd elhamid elsayed

  when you pronounce the word halayeb in arabic in front of many english writers , the majority of them will write halayeb and not hala'ib , beside that many people in the english speaking multitude have no understanding of the symbol (') in the word hala'ib Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 22:52, 20 January 2010 (UTC) abd elhamid elsayed or abdlhamidelsayed

• The article was moved back because of the very large number of sources on Google (in English) that referred to it as the "Hala'ib Triangle". Your version -- "Halayeb Triangle" -- is still in the database as a redirect, so anyone who searches on it will find the correct article.

  If you have any other arguments for why the article should be moved, other then the argument from pronunciation, you should make them here. If a consensus is found to agree with you then the article can be moved, otherwise, it's best that it stay. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:09, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

• This looks like that Hala'ib is the Classical Arabic pronunciation and Halayeb is the Egyptian Colloquial Arabic pronunciation :: which to follow? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

• I rather think that the question of pronunciation is a red herring -- after all, if we went by the French pronunciation of their capital city, we would call our article on it "Paree" (and for all I know there may indeed be a redriect to "Paris" under that spelling). No, the issue is very much which of the two choices before us are in common usage in English, and the answer to that seems clear by the disproportionate number of Google hits: "Hala'ib" is the preferred usage, so that is what the article should be called. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:39, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

• Agreed. Our job is not to decide how to transliterate Arabic or whether WP articles should have Classical or colloquial titles. Our job is to identify what is the dominant, established transliteration appearing in reliable English-language sources, which is Hala'ib. --Atemperman (talk) 01:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support the return to Hala'ib. Check the English sources. "Halayeb" is unattested outside of Wikipedia. — AjaxSmack 07:58, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

• Just to be clear, at this moment, the article is at Hala'ib. It was moved twice to Halayeb without discussion, and moved back at my request, so your "support" !vote means that you Oppose the suggested move. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:05, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

• Opposed until any actual reason to move it it provided.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 09:52, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move it to Halayeb Triangle for many reasons. Even in the most official documents in Egypt and Sudan, it is spelled as حلايب ħ-l-ā-y-b not حلائب ħ-l-ā-ʔ-b and both peoples pronounce it without glottal stops, also it is cleaner to spell words in English with English alphabet, rather than apostrophes, when nothing is omitted here. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 10:28, 27 February 2013 (UTC)     The claim that Google or some search engines find more results with a spelling more than others is not relevant, since Google finds much less results with the name Modern Standard Arabic than Literary Arabic or Standard Arabic. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 13:02, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Borders

There is, of course, a necessary distinction to be made between the two borders, the differences between which created the Triangle, but since both borders were set by political processes (albeit different ones), they are both "political" borders. A better adjective needs to be found to describe the non-administrative border. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:56, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

See [4] Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:13, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Discussions with User:Abdelhamidelsayed

"Facts"

I am moving some discussion from my talk page here, where it is most appropriate to appear:

dear friend

i do speak arabic , while you do not so it is more accurate to say halayeb triangle instead of hala'ib triangle . this is something called logics or common sense and you can answer the people who decided to post an article as hala'ib why they did that , but if there is censorship in halayeb i will never trust wikimapia no more , because if you ask the majority of the arab speaking people that you can meet they will tell you that the correct wording for it in english is halayeb triangle and i am ready to talk to you if you want [redacted] and if you do not want to spend your money just post your phone number and i will call you and if either solutions does not meet your concensus [redacted e-mail addressed] and indeed the triangle is egyptian and sudan claim it under wrong assesments and many people in the western world do not understand what is the symbol (') which is present in hala'ib and you try to pronounce both words in front of an arab and ask him to say which one is right after he writes in arabic the word halayeb by abd elhamid elsayed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdelhamidelsayed (talk • contribs) 22:29, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

dear sir

why you canceled some facts about halayeb like the borders fence and others?
isn't wikimapia about facts?
Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 22:43, 20 January 2010 (UTC)by abd elhamid elsayed

Wikipedia is about facts that are verified by reliable sources. Find a reliable source which says what you want to say, and it can be added to the article. In the meantime, I would prefer that all communication regarding this matter take place on the article's talk page, and not here. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:06, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Any additional discussion can take place here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:14, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

For the sake of completeness, I'm moving two additional posts here from my talk page. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:43, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

dear friend ,

you have not yet answered my questions regarding the facts you erased from halayeb a fence is a fact and can be seen in google earth and other facts , why you erased the fence paragraph , i saw it in august 2008 and it is there to stay not only for symbol of power but to stop contraband regarding my profile , i have no enemies because what i post are facts and more of my profile is available in facebook. i am not of that type that hides behind a nick name like you do and if i had more computer knowledge , i would post more and more in wikipedia. and if you threaten me to block me in wikimapia , this is the so called policy of some in the western world - either you are with us or against us , blocking me will not get halayeb from the egyptians because i firmly believe in deep of my soul that it belongs to egypt and the army is there , i saw this and our policy toward sudan is considering that the sudanese have not to talk about this matter the president of sudan was in egypt meeeting with the president egypt and at their backs was displayed a big map of egypt showing halayeb in our territory and the sudanese president was silent. you could have drugs in your home and i know about that , so i can come to visit you or not . why he came to visit egypt knowing that the egyptian control a part of what he considers his country . best regards , it was a pleasure writing to you. Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 00:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC) abd elhamid elsayed

I've answered your question in the only way possible on Wikipedia: it doesn't matter what the "facts" are if you cannot back them up with something from a reliable source. Go to this link to find out what a reliable source is, then do some research, find a reliable source that reports the things you want to add to the article, and they can be added. Without them, you will not be able to do so.

One other thing, please do not post on my talk page about this again -- all discussion should be on the article's talk page: Talk:Hala'ib Triangle. Thank you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

fact that has been ignored : the fence is visible in google earth - why it has been removed from the article? just answer Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 22:26, 23 January 2010 (UTC)abdelhamidelsayed

(1) I could not see it on Google Earth. (2) Even if I could, that would be original research. At the risk of repeating myself, if you want a fact such as this in the article, get a citation from a reliable source that says it. There's no other way it can be added. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:28, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

arabic language and the pronounciation and spelling of halayeb (hala'ib)

Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 22:17, 23 January 2010 (UTC)abdelhamidelsayed dear ladies and gentlemen i am asking all those involved in this article to ask someone expert : what is the correct spelling of the word (حلايب) in english ? best regards

With all due respect, you seem to be totally missing the concept here: asking an "expert" will not solve the problem as far as Wikipedia is concerned, since anyone with access to the Internet can come here and say they are an expert, or say that they consulted an expert. Wikipedia accepts things that can be verified from reliable sources, not by second-hand hearsay or the views of the editors. Until you understand this, I'm afraid you're going to have serious problems trying to edit here, as any information you attempt to add, especially controversial or contentitious information, is liable to be removed if it doesn't have a citation from a reliable source to back it up. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:34, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Borders fence

A border fence erected by the Egyptian army runs along the 22 north parallel of latitude.Several border patrol stations are on the north side of the fence and are manned by the army.This border fence can be clearly seen only by zooming-in in Google Earth. The best place to see this fence is the only border gate between Egypt and Sudan , east of the Nile river , located at the following coordinates : 21 59 59 40 north and 36 43 32 48 east at eye altitude 2000 feet. http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=713025. A picture of the border gate between Egypt and Sudan (taken from the north facing south) can be seen at ---> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/23532132 and also at http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=22.0004347&lon=36.7259216&z=17&l=0&m=b&show=/10907558/Border-point-between-Egypt-and-Sudan Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 06:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)abdelhamidelsayed

I do see what appears to be the border crossing and a line which, most probably, is a fence - thanks for the specific coordinates. Still, seeing it on Google Earth changes nothing: if you want it to go into the article, get a citation from a reliable source which mentions it. What you or I may interpret as a fence may not be, and our interpretation is, in any case, original research. Only a cite from a reliable source will do the trick. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:00, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article33415 the article clearly talks about a borders gate

He said that Egyptian border patrols prevented him from entering by closing the main gate despite their knowledge of his planned visit.

Do you consider any sudanese website a reliable source ? Please answer Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 04:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)abdelhamidelsayed

That there is a gate certainly implies that there is a fence or a wall, but it says nothing whatsoever about the nature of the wall or gate, its length, where it goes, etc. If it's important to you to get a description of the fence into the article, as it obviously appears to be, I'd think you would be more than willing to do the necessary research to find a reliable source that describes the fence. Once you have that, you're set! Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:29, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Halayeb triangle inhabitants choices

Halayeb triangle inhabitants are human beings as all the other humans worldwide. They dream of a decent life as everyone. And the dream of decent life has many aspects and by their own words , their first request to their fellow Egyptians when Egypt asserted control over the area was : water , because water was scarce in the area. Ealier requests to the Sudanese unlawful occupiers was met by silence. When the Egyptians arrived they brought civilization with their arrival. A new salt water desalination plant was erected , roads were paved , houses were built , transportation was established by 4 daily busses connecting the area to Cairo and other cities , health care was finally available after decades of negligence , schools were opened , local people were involved in the decisions regarding the area by local authorities because they were in the local government and the major achievment the population achieved after water was to be counted as Egyptians , because they considered themselves Egyptians because they lived north of the 22nd north parallel of latitude and whoever was willing to remain behind as Sudanese was allowed . Whoever lives there appreciates the progress brought by the Egyptians . Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 03:48, 27 January 2010 (UTC)abdelhamidelsayed

Please note what it says at the top of this page:

• This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Hala'ib triangle article.
• This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

In other words, discussion here should not be about the people in the Hal'ib triangle and their wants and desires, nor should it be about your deeply held belief that the triangle is and should be Egyptian (as expressed on your user page), all discussion here should be about how to improve the article. If you have thoughts on that, please feel free to post them, but otherwise, you need to find some place else other than Wikipedia to post your ideas. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Halayeb triangle border pass point between Egypt and Sudan

Halayeb triangle border pass point between egypt and Sudan Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 01:54, 28 January 2010 (UTC)abdelhamidelsayed http://googlesightseeing.com/locality/continents/africa/sudan/

I have reverted the material you posted. Unfortunately, "Google Sightseeing" is not connected with Google, it's a weblog which explicitly says at the bottom of the page that they are not responsible for the content of the posts. Generally, blogs are not acceptable as reliable sources -- took a look here for the reasons why.

In any event, there's nothing whatsoever unusal or notable about there being a pass point between two countries, and so no particular reason to include that information in the article, especially as a separate section, and considering that the existence of the pass point is explicitly mentioned in another section, which describes a Sudanese official being prevented from entering the area by Egyptian forces. The article makes it quite clear that Egypt has de facto control over the Hala'ib Triangle area, and is investing in improving the infrastructure there, so I fail to see why the border pass point is significant in establishing anything. The border fence might be significant enough to mention, if you can find a source that explicitly talks about it, but, then again, such fences are not unknown in that part of the world. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:03, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Egypt Sudan border fence

Moved here from User talk:Beyond My Ken for reasons expressed below. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:25, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

dear , do you consider www.fao.org a reliable source? if they mention a fence and a picture in an article on their website would you find extra excuses to erase my post? best regards, please answer back Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 05:15, 30 January 2010 (UTC)abdelhamidelsayed

• 1. Simply mentioning the fence shows nothing, as I've said to you before. If the cite describes the fence, fine, then the description of the fence in the citation -- and not your own, personal description -- can go in the article.
• 2. Please review the Wikipedia policies on assuming good faith of other editors. I've done you the courtesy of assuming your good faith, I would appreciate it if you would extend that same courtesy to me.
• 3. I've asked you a number of times not to post on this subject on my talk page, but instead on the article talk page. I'm going to transfer this latest comment and my response to the article talk page, but from here on out, any posting by you to my user talk page about Hala'ib triangle, Hala'ib, Shalateen or Wadi Allaqi or related subjects will be deleted unread. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

dear , if we have this dispute about the names and about the fence , who is the judge between us , or are you abusing the power you have in wikimapia?

i hope some big bosses do intervene. Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 06:50, 30 January 2010 (UTC)abdelhamidelsayed

I have no "power", I'm merely another editor, like you.

• Regarding the names of the four articles you moved without discussion - I asked for them to be moved back because they were clearly moved outside of policy. Some admins agreed with those requests and moved them back to where they had been. To facilitate your request to move them to other names that you think are more appropriate, those articles all have "move requested" tags on them that represent what you want to do. Make your arguments there, on each article's talk page (as you have already done on two of them) and eventually, after a week or so, an admin will come along and decide what should happen to the articles, based on those discussions.
• About the fence, WP:reliable sources is a basic bedrock Wikipedia policy, so it's highly unlikely that any "big boss" is going to intervene if you insert material without sourcing and I revert it. So far, you've established that there is a border pass point, and that's in the article, and you established the existence of some kind of fence, but no particulars about how long it is, how much of the border it covers etc. You've certainly not provided any sources that support the specific language which you wish to insert in the article. I promise you, if you find a reliable source that backs that up, I will not remove it, but as long as your sources do not describe the particulars of the fence as you wish it to be described, I will continue to revert your edits as being unsourced and therefore not allowed under Wikipedia policy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:05, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

By the way, this is Wikipedia not Wikimapia, which is a completely unrelated website. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:19, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Sources in English, please

While it is not unexpected that many of the sources for information on this subject are in Arabic, because it is a controversial subject sources in English are to be preferred so that they can be understood and evaluated by other editors -- this is, after all, English Wikipedia. This is especially the case when information is added by editors who have an admitted bias towards a particular side in the conflict between Egypt and Sudan. [5] Because of their expressed POV, their information is suspect to begin with, and not being able to weigh it makes it useless. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:27, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

i will leave that controversial part so when you read it you will understand that you made a huge mistake although i gave you a lot of advices but you were hard headded Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 10:07, 14 July 2010 (UTC) abd elhamid elsayed

From User:Abdelhamidelsayed:

Abd Elhamid Elsayed or exactly Abd Elhamid Mahmoud Abd Elhamid Elsayed Habsa is an egyptian citizen born the 13 july 1952 in the village of Kafr Elbagour - Menoufia - Egypt , and living in USA. My main mission is to show the whole world that Halayeb (Hala'ib) triangle is egyptian. All the maps circulating worldwide showing Halayeb triangle as disputed territory should be disposed. A true researcher has in the world wide web an enormous source of information and could find by himself all the historic facts about the egyptian claims to the triangle to be true. A lot of historic maps do show the triangle to be egyptian , none of them has showed it to be not egyptian. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=34065457122&ref=nf#/photo.php?pid=5644408&id=844545724}}

You really should not be editing this article, given your clear declaration of bias. You are an editor with a single purpose (an WP:SPA) and a point of view you are pushing. (WP:POV). Every edit you make here is automatically suspect, and needs support from absolutely pristine sources to be included in the article. Please do not add stuff to the article that isn't accompanied by a citation from an English-language reliable source so that other editors can evaluate them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:29, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

@beyond my ken , the section about the sudanese men in egyptian prisons is from sudanese arabic source and still you accepted it , but when i provided sources in arabic about the involvment of these men of illegal army trafficking from sudan to the halayeb triangle , you dismissed it , you are bias and this can be noticed by any researcher that follows this article because the first citation about these imprisoned men was from a sudanese source and someone - i have not checked it, may be you - changed it to egyptian newspaper. when i changed it to sudanese, you changed it again to egyptian and you made a huge mistake because you do not dig deeply after i gave you all the proofs. and this mistake will hunt you forever. and you erased all the evidence of correspondence with me but your huge mistake is still there in the history and will taunt you forever.

and who care about your opinion, you are to learn yet a lot , and mainly that this halayeb triangle is in solid control of the egyptian army and whatever is your nationality nobody and i do repeat nobody can take the triangle over from the egyptian army , and the sudanese army soldiers are trapped inside it and a whole new contingent has to come and replace the present contingent every year before the first is allowed to leave for sudan , and this means that the sudanese soldiers have just few meters to move inside the triangle and their position is east of these coordinates {(22 13 32.47 n 36 37 02.79 e) which is a major road intersection clearly visible in google earth at elevation 1000 ft.

you are hiding beyond a ken like a cockroach while my personal information is available to everybody.

halayeb triangle is and will be forever egyptian. Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 05:41, 15 July 2010 (UTC)abd elhamid elsayed

That belief is exactly why you should not be editing this article. Please also take the time to read WP:NPA; personal attacks on other editors are not allowed on Wikipedia. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:40, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

The area is sometimes referred to in Egypt as the "Sudan Government Administration Area" or SGAA

I Abd Elhamid Elsayed Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 23:40, 27 November 2010 (UTC)Abd Elhamid Elsayed object to the above mentioned phrase The area is sometimes referred to in Egypt as the "Sudan Government Administration Area" or SGAA.[3] by pure logic thinking, how can Egypt nowadays claims the tiangle as its own territory and claims it as a sudan government administration area the two phrases contraddict each other , that is why I changed is to was. Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 23:40, 27 November 2010 (UTC) Abd Elhamid Elsayed

Please note the following text from the User page of the above editor:

My main mission is to show the whole world that Halayeb (Hala'ib) triangle is egyptian. All the maps circulating worldwide showing Halayeb triangle as disputed territory should be disposed. A true researcher has in the world wide web an enormous source of information and could find by himself all the historic facts about the egyptian claims to the triangle to be true. A lot of historic maps do show the triangle to be egyptian , none of them has showed it to be not egyptian.

As I have said before (see a number of threads above) this editor has a pre-determined point of view about this subject, and should not be editing the article at all, yet he continues to do so. His opinions and suggestions about the article and the subject should be ignored as inherently untrustworthy, given his bias. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:33, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 02:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)abd elhamid elsayed I ask a professor of english grammer to examine the following phrase:

The area is sometimes referred to in Egypt as the "Sudan Government Administration Area" or SGAA

and decide if it is exact to write it with ----- was or is , because is means nowadays, and nowadays egypt claims it of its own, while was is in the past and Egypt in the past gave the area to Sudan to administer without conceeding the political and geographical sovereignity. Only for the grammatical logical sake. Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 02:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Abd Elhamid Elsayed

It's grammatically fine.

Please don't edit this article again, you have a serious self-announced conflict of interest and nothing you add to the article can be taken with good faith because of it. If you wish to change the article, make a suggestion here, and if another editor without your bias agrees with it, they can add it to the article, as long as it is sourced – that means it must be accompanied by a citation from a reliable source.

I have removed your latest edits to the article because "trapped" is a point of view word, which we avoid here, and the information about the election is unsourced. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:13, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The word trapped is mentioned in the link which is present in the article http://www.sudantribune.com/Egypt-bars-Sudanese-official-from.html Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 04:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Abd Elhamid Elsayed

border fence

to the user named beyond my ken ::::: i have given a reference from the food and agriculture organization , why have you removed my edit? Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 02:28, 23 March 2011 (UTC)abdelhamidelsayed

Your reference was a photograph, with a caption that said it was near the border and pointed out a fence in the background. That is not in any way sufficient to show the existence of a fence all along the border. We've been through all this before, you must have citation from a reliable source which actually supports the contention that the border is fenced all along its length. As for the idea that you can see it on Google Earth, that's original research pure and simple.

You've been told all this before, numerous times (see above), and yet you keep coming back to try to get it in again. That's not going to happen unless you find a reliable English-language source to support your contention. When that happens, it can stay in the article, otherwise, it will be deleted. I happen to get to it first,because this page is on my watch list, but if I don't delete it, some other editor will, as it is clearly not compliant with our policies.

In the meantime, as I've told you numerous times, you should not be editing this article, as you are pushing a particular point of view about the Hala-ib triangle, as shown by the statement on your user page. As far as I have been able to tell, every edit you have made has been with the purpose of pushing that POV, something that we do not allow. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:04, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

thank you for your reply , I will be searching Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 04:27, 23 March 2011 (UTC)abdelhamidelsayed

From User:Abdelhamidelsayed:

Abd Elhamid Elsayed or exactly Abd Elhamid Mahmoud Abd Elhamid Elsayed Habsa is an egyptian citizen born the 13 july 1952 in the village of Kafr Elbagour - Menoufia - Egypt , and living in USA. My main mission is to show the whole world that Halayeb (Hala'ib) triangle is egyptian. All the maps circulating worldwide showing Halayeb triangle as disputed territory should be disposed. A true researcher has in the world wide web an enormous source of information and could find by himself all the historic facts about the egyptian claims to the triangle to be true. A lot of historic maps do show the triangle to be egyptian , none of them has showed it to be not egyptian. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=34065457122&ref=nf#/photo.php?pid=5644408&id=844545724}}

Name

In arabic Wikipedia the name is حلايب not حلائب (notice the hamza).--ZealousGnome (talk) 23:58, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

1902???

I can't find any reliable sources concerning the 1902 map or agreement, I have searched IBS archive and found that document: http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/limitsinseas/ibs018.pdf, It has no mention of the 1902 Boundary, so from what blue hell (other than some internet propaganda) came the 1902 boundary? since the later published 1960 maps show nothing about a triangle in that area? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.131.121.216 (talk) 03:12, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Populated place

So the main populated place is .... some name other than Halaib. And the "only other populated place" is ... some other name, other than Halaib.

But then the reference for Halaib, says "it is a town ... ". So is it a "populated place" , or not ?? Eregli bob (talk) 10:06, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

total population?

Should report approximate overall population... AnonMoos (talk) 05:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Message

beyond my ken  ::::: thank you for your edits — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdelhamidelsayed (talk • contribs) 20:31, 10 February 2016 (UTC) sorry , forgot to sign abdelhamidelsayed Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 20:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

You're welcome. BMK (talk) 00:57, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

beyond my ken : thank you again 2017 01 22 Abdelhamidelsayed (talk) 04:41, 23 January 2017 (UTC)abdelhamidelsayed

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110716161744/http://www.sudaneseonline.com/cgi-bin/ar4/exec/view.cgi/7/2561 to http://www.sudaneseonline.com/cgi-bin/ar4/exec/view.cgi/7/2561

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Requested move 28 August 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved per the consensus below. L293D (☎ • ✎) 18:08, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

---

Hala'ib Triangle → Halayeb Triangle – It's called مثلث حلايب (halaYeb triangle), has always been named and spelled this way. There's no such thing as حلائب (hala'ib) unless this is the exception, not the rule. It's Halayeb. References:

• • 1. https://www.thoughtco.com/halayeb-triangle-1435449
  • 2. http://www.egypttoday.com/Article/2/49872/Russia-Today-apologizes-for-Halayeb-Triangle-poll
  • 3. http://amp.albawaba.com/news/egypt-and-sudan-agree-not-escalate-halayeb-triangle-dispute-1094238
  • 4. http://www.africanews.com/amp/2018/04/19/sudan-protests-to-un-over-egypt-voting-in-disputed-halayeb-triangle/
  • 5. https://outpostmagazine.com/travelling-halayeb-triangle-desert-caught-two-worlds/
    •  MatthewS. (talk) 03:28, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• And also Hala'ib → Halayeb (copied from Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests) Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). MatthewS. (talk) 03:51, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose move -
  • "Hala'ib Triangle" gets 84,300 Ghits
  • "Halayeb Triangle" gets 11,500 Ghits
  • "'Hala'ib Triangle'" gets 17,300 Ghits [6]
  • "'Halayeb Triangle'" gets 9,780 Ghits [7]
  • "'Hala'ib Triangle' -Halayeb" gets 18,400 Ghits [8]
  • "'Halayeb Triangle' -Hala'ib" gets 10,100 Ghits [9]
  • "Hala'ib" gets 1,100,000 Ghits [10]
  • "Halayeb" gets 40,500 Ghits [11]

Clearly "Hala'ib" and "Hala'ib Triangle" are preferred over "Halayeb" and "Halayeb Triangle". Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:10, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• @MatthewS. and Beyond My Ken: It likely depends on whether in fully vowelled Arabic spelling there is a hamza on the 'y', changing its pronunciation from 'y' to the glottal stop. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:01, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Our only concern is what is the most widely used WP:COMMONNAME in English. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:28, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• The funny thing is the article here and under Hala'ib say "Hala'ib" and then right next to it the spelling of "Halayeb" in Arabic. Nobody says Hala'ib at all. I'm from Egypt born and raised and we NEVER say or hear it said "Hala'ib," and also in the Sudan they say Halayeb. It will always be Halayeb, even if some maps or someone on Wikipedia wants to pretend otherwise. Also upon checking, Google Maps has Halayeb and then "Hala'ib Triangle" (probably because Google tends to cite Wikipedia though) and then right under that the supposed equivalent in Arabic, which is "Mosallas Halayeb." (Right it's Halayeb, you read that right). MatthewS. (talk) 11:41, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• حلايب ḥalā'ib or ḥalāyib looks like a broken plural of حليب ḥalīb = "milking". The Classical Arabic form should have a glottal stop, but Egyptian Arabic seems to have a 'y' instead. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:35, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• I speak and can read and write Arabic, and حلايب (with the يـ "ye") is just Halayeb; Hala'ib or Hala'eb (with the glottal stop sound) would be spelled حلائب with a ئـ, and this is a valid Arabic word indeed but not the name of the region. Halayeb in Arabic is almost always spelled with the Ye (يـ), even here on these very Wikipedia articles it says in Arabic what reads as "Ḥalayeb," with a Ye, not a glottal stop. This is my whole argument. --MatthewS. (talk) 18:01, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• This is all interesting, but irrelevant The question does not hinge on anything but the question: What is it called in English? Many places in the world got their English names through misunderstandings or mistakes, but they are nonetheless the accepted name. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:30, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose move. There is no concrete evidence that the Triangle's name is commonly transliterated as "Halayeb" in English. Though I admit that ghits are unreliable (especially with Wikipedia hits included within the count), they can certainly be used as a starting point. On top of that, MatthewS. provided proof that Google Maps calls the Triangle "Hala'ib". ONR (talk) 22:49, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Yes, Ghits can definitely be misleading, which is why I included a variety of different search terms, all of which had more hits for the "Hala'ib" form. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:51, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

For Google Map, the whole system is a cancer of the internet, it did really really bad on transliteration on foreign name, which the English transliteration of Chinese place and company were often wrong (especially the latter). They definitely broken its own data checking system ([12]). I prefer to use some name of the triangle that was published in some real map publisher. Matthew_hk tc 05:50, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Well, what about a middle ground? I'll just edit it to mention the alternative spelling. MatthewS. (talk) 03:54, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

No. I've reverted those edits. Get a consensus, you don't have one now. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:13, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. "Hala'ib Triangle" is substantially more common than "Halayeb Triangle" on Google Books.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:55, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not a straight line!

Only the southern 290-kilometre (180 mi) demarcation, which follows latitude 22°, is a straight line.
The only parallel that is a straight line is the equator. 22° is not the equator. 22° is curved.--Adûnâi (talk) 22:28, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Not in the sense that is meant in the article, only in the very pedantic sense. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:57, 3 March 2019 (UTC)