Talk:Gwent Police

Article title change

I'm not sure that the recent renaming of this article to Heddlu Gwent Police is correct. Translated that would mean 'Police' Gwent Police wouldn't it? I would have thought the name hasn't actually changed but like traffic signs in Wales the force website displays both the Welsh and English versions? Anyone able to clarify? Dibble999 (talk) 18:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

No, I think they really do call themselves that officially. Welsh word order is "Heddlu Gwent" and English word order is "Gwent Police" - so the adjectival proper noun "Gwent" gets craftily shared. I'm sure there are many other examples around. I guess it's a kind of `Corporate Wenglish'. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:51, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we ought to Anglicise this one too? Should go down well with fellow wikis west of Offas Dyke. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:30, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Per the guideline Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), I moved the article back. "Heddlu Gwent Police" is not in English, but rather a totally useless (in terms of people trying to find an encyclopaedia article) piece of corporate branding. ninety:one 21:13, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Useless maybe, branding maybe, not in English maybe. But apparently a fact. I thought wp had to pay some heed, however begrudging, to facts? Perhaps en:wp not meant to cope with entities that are neither purely English nor purely Welsh, but an (attempted) amalgamation of both? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

"The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language". "Heddlu Gwent Police" is not in English, and no-one looking for the article would put that into the search box. ninety:one 21:40, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

You're quite right. So this one too? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:45, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Feel free :P ninety:one 21:54, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Haha, how polite. I'll think about that one. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

You're not at work today because of personal reasons...? Oh and that wasn't meant to be impolite, apologies if it came across that way! ninety:one 22:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

In my experience they are usually called "Gwent Police", "the police", or even "the heddlu" (!). In fact, they are called a lot of things, but almost never "Heddlu Gwent Police". That's just the name they'd like to think they call themselves. But that is the name on the badge, on the stationery and (very clearly) on the website. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:25, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

As a few of you have commented here, the actual name of the organisation is Heddlu Gwent Police, it isnt Gwent Police, it isnt Heddlu Gwent. The title of the organisation is Heddlu Gwent Police, which was a consious effort by that organisation to have a bi-lingual title. Similarly to Cymdeithas yr Iaith it would be wrong of us to adapt the title of the organisation to fit with wikipedia editors. The same being for Heddlu Dyfed-Powys Police gtanswell (talk) 22:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The name of Heddlu Dyfed-Powys Police seems less clear, as their badge seems to say "Dyfed Powys Heddlu Police" and their website is plainly branded as "Dyfed Powys Police". But I think what you say about the name of Heddlu Gwent Police is correct. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:54, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

(undent) There are a huge number of articles where 'adapting' the name of an organisation has occurred in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME. The English-language name of the organisation, and therefore the title of the article per WP:ENGLISH, is "Gwent Police". Moving the article in the middle of a contentious discussion is hardly conducive to building a better encyclopaedia either. ninety:one 22:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I cant see why there is an issue with the title remaining as 'Heddlu Gwent Police' when I have just searched for 'Gwent Police' it has still come up with that same article. And so surely it is perfectly acceptable for the wiki community to respect the name of the organisation and to leave it as it should be? You couldnt change 'Cymdeithas yr Iaith' to the 'Language Society' because that isnt the name of that organisation but is an english translation, and so I dont see why keeping a bilingual title is such a problem gtanswell (talk) 23:03, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

With respect, if you read WP:ENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME you will see exactly why - "Heddlu Gwent Police" is not in English, and it is a guideline that all article names are in English - the majority, if not 99% of users, will search for "Gwent Police". On the Welsh-language encyclopaedia, Heddlu Gwent would be perfectly logical. But here it is not, because this is an English-language encyclopaedia. Furthermore, it is clear from the website that when they are writing in exclusively English or Welsh, such as in the reports, they use either "Gwent Police" or "Heddlu Gwent". "Heddlu Gwent Police" is a convenient and effective way of branding the force where both languages are used, but that is all it is. ninety:one 23:14, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Conversely Cadw is actually named "Cadw: Welsh Historic Monuments" but the wp article is simply called Cadw. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

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