Talk:Guy Stair Sainty

Weird Link

I have no idea who placed this in the External Links, 'World Orders of Knighthood and Merit', but it's a link to a page that says nothing about World Orders of Knighthood and Merit, every one of the eight pages in the menu are identical, and if you go to the 'contact us below' form, and submit a comment, it comes up with a 404 Error.JovanW 07:31, 29 October 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jovan66102 (talk • contribs)

Monarchists status

Is there a reference that Mr. Guy Stair Sainty is a Monarchist?Bnguyen 04:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

MVOSJ

This Gazette Link lists Mr Sainty as an "Associated Knight." What does this mean? Is this because he is part of the American Priory, or something?--Eva ^bd 14:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Gazette Links to Be Incorporated

I hope others don't mind, but I'm putting these three London Gazette links here on the talk page while I contemplate how best to incorporate them into the article. Also, is it best to cite these as London Gazette entries or as websites?

• Mr Sainty KStJ
• Mrs Sainty OStJ
• Mr Sainty CStJ

Also, some information about other orders to be added to the article:

• Savoy
• Constantinian St George
• others

Thanks much.--Eva ^bd 14:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I consider the bookplate a poor source, considering that (among other things) it displays the coronet of a baron. Also, it didn't display the insignia of a Knight of Magistral Grace, which makes me somewhat dubious; I removed the references to the Order of Malta until they can be substantiated (I'm sure Sainty himself knows how careful one has to be in alleged dealings with the SMOM). - fidei defensor

Article title

On May 29, 2007 ALoan changed the article title from "Guy Stair Sainty" to "Guy Sainty". Google shows 299 hits for "Guy Sainty" and 10,300 for "Guy Stair Sainty". Sainty always writes under the name "Guy Stair Sainty". Noel S McFerran 18:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. For the record, I asked ALoan to make the move because it seemed pretty clear-cut to me. But I'll be fine if it is at the current Guy Stair Sainty. Thanks for the note.--Eva ^bd 18:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

-I agree with Noel S McFerran that the article should remain as Guy Stair Sainty that is his professional name that is in usage by him throughout his career in heraldy and books about history of chivarly. Bnguyen 07:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Libel suit by Rosario Poidiman

COURT OF VICENZA

The Court of Vicenza, section week, re-united in Council Chamber and composed from Mr. Magistrati:

Dr. Giuseppe Bozza President

Dr. Valeria Zancan Judge rel.

Dr. Massimiliano De Giovanni Judge

on the promoted former claim art. 669 terdecies cpc from Stair Sainty Guy, assisted from avv.ti M. the Cats of the hole of Country house Monferrato and Russian S. of Vicenza:

against

Poidimani S.A.R. Dom Rosario assisted from avv.ti G. Parmeggiani of the hole of Padova and I. Magaraggia of Vicenza;

in point: former claim art. 669 terdecies cpc against the decree of the Court of Vicenza of the 4.06.04

it has emitted following

DECREE

read the claim deposited in date 24.06.04 from Stair Sainty Guy;

read to the appearance of constitution and answer for the resistant one deposited the 20.07.04; convened the parts;

melting reservoir assumed it to the audience of the 20.07.04;

premised that:

- With notified summons the 29.12.03 Poidimani Dom Rosario has convene in judgment Stair Sainty Guy in order to feel to condemn it, according to of the artt. 2043 and 2059 cc to the compensation of the endured damages as a result of the diffamatorio character of an article diffused from summoned person via Internet;

- In date 2.02.04 Poidimani actor, in course of cause, but before the audience first court appearance of the parts, has deposited rerun former art. 700 cpc directed to obtain the closing of the situated Internet www.chivalricorders.org or at least the elimination from situated saying of the pages of allegated diffamatorio content and the inhibition for the future to publish and to disclose the written object of cause;

- In date 4.06.04, in acceptation of the demand formulated in via subordinated in the resource to secure, it has been ordered to summoned person Stair Sainty Guy “to supply to the elimination of situated web www.chivalricorders.org of the phrases of the article titolato “To bref response to statements made by the supporters of the late Maria Pia de Saxe-Coburg-Bragance” like brought back to pag. 7 and following, etc. in italic character of the novellistic one and to abstain themselves for future publishing and/or to disclose and such shapes in any case phrases”.

- With the claim under investigation deposited the 24.06.04 it is asked revoca it of the cited provision in data 4.06.04 deposited the 7,06, 04 in support of which three reasons of inammissibilità of the former resource come deducted art. 700 cpc and consequently of illegittimità of the provision of acceptation of the same one and just:

to) Inammissibilità for lack in the question to secure proposed in course of cause, the anticipatorio character of the eventual acceptation of the question of waited for merit that the sig. Poidimani in the summons has asked the sentence for summoned person the compensation for the former damage artt. 2043 and 2059 cc and that directing not to obtain the elimination from the situated Internet of the diffamatorie affirmations;

b) Inammissibilità for defect of jurisdiction of the Italian Judge being protesting (summoned person in the resource to secure) city American, resident abroad, not domiciled in Italy and not covering the contained affirmations in famous the 22.10.02 (doc. 11 fasc. attoreo) meant of acceptance of the Italian jurisdiction;

c) Inammissibilità for territorial incompetenza of the Court of Vicenza in how much, to wanting to think that Stair Sainty Guy has accepted the Italian jurisdiction, in famous the 22.10.02 recalled to the previous point b) summoned person in the former resource art. 700 cpc would have elect address in the circoscrizione of the Court of Monferrato Country house, in the circoscrizione of such court would find the serveur on which the diffamatorie declarations have been loaded the concerning pages; the formulated principles of right in Cass could not be adapted to the fattispecie. n. 6591/2002 and recall to you in the appealled provision - that they characterize the competent hole in the place of the address of the subject offeso - because the damage shown from the Poidimani in the summons re-enters in the figure of the “damage event” deriving from the lesion of the personal reputation while the derived patrimonial loss from the asserted lesion of the reputation (gives consequence) would be sfornita of every test;

- The appealled provision also comes censured in the merit for the deficiency of the fumus boni iuris relatively to the shown diffamatorio character of the written one disclosed via Internet and that because;

to) the translation of the text written up in produced English language in actions it would not be “sworne” and therefore it could not be valued to the ends of the decision;

b) the expressions used in the article object of the resource would not cover offensive character;

c) the censorships on the behavior of the Poidimani contained in the written one disclosed via Internet, quand' also suitable to discredit the image of the Poidimani, would be legittimate from the exercise from part of the odierno protesting of the right of critic concurred in how much directing to satisfy purpose of public interest and that is to put in guard eventual aspirants to nobiliari onorificenze and tito them from the risks to lead negotiations with the resistant one.

- The demanded Poidimani Dom Rosario in the appearance of constitution and deposited answer the 20.07.04 has contrasted the having followed reasons of the claim with reasonings,

to) on the inammissibilità of the former resource art, 700 cpc because not anticipatorio of the demand it pronounces of merit, the resistant one has eccepito the inammissibilità of the exception because not carried out in the previous phase to secure and however its infondatezza because the demand to secure of inibitoria would be instrumental regarding the risarcitoria action because having the function to prevent that the right for which the protection is asked it endures in the more a irreparabile prejudgment;

b) on the inammissibilità of the resource for deficiency of jurisdiction the resistant one abroad has marked the lacked protesting test of the foreign nationality and its residence let alone acceptance from part of Stair Sainty Guy of the Italian jurisdiction;

c) on the exception of territorial incompetenza the resistant one has recalled the theses made own from judging in the appealled decree:

d) on the deficiency of fumus boni juris the resistant one it has contested the opposing reasonings of merit and has deposited the translations asserted of the witnesses originally produced in English language between which the article diffused via Internet in contestazione.

- To the fixed audience for the examination of the claim, the parts have been brought back to the content of the limbs deposit to you;

All that premising, the Court OBSERVES:

1) On the issues of Italian jurisdiction and territorial competence.

The Court thinks that relative the prejudicial issues to the subsistence of the Italian jurisdiction and the territorial competence of the Court of Vicenza must be decided in the cause of merit promoted from Poidimani Rosario and in the within of the procedure not to secure.

In the phase to secure they they will have to be examined, only incidently and the relative judgment, necessarily highly summarized and carried out to the state of the actions, will be necessary to the aim to verify the subsistence of “fumus boni juris” of the pretension in relation to which the caution is demanded; that in how much, in case the prejudicial issues appeared founded, they could justify one decision of refusal of the resource to secure for the lack of the presupposed one of “fumus” without to the contempo binding the Judge of the cause pregiudicata to the definitive decision on the ritual issues.

In such perspective, reputa the College that, to the state of the actions, not sussista the defect of Italian jurisdiction or competence of the Court of Vicenza.

The odierno can in fact be thought incontroverso that protesting, convene in the former resource art. 700 cpc. he is subject resident abroad (New York) since the same resistant Poidimani has indicated in the summons the American residence of summoned person.

Ancorché presumes, in lack of various replies, than in the residence place the address of Stair Sainty Guy is located also, seems to the College that protesting, with declaration 22.10.02 (doc. 9 fasc. to secure whose asserted translation has been produced sub doc. 27 and 29 fasc. to secure) has meant eleggere address in Italy of art. 47 cc and that such understanding has been confirmed in date 28.10.02 (doc. 11 fasc. to secure) with the complete indication of the elect address.

It achieves the applicabilità of art. the 3, codicil 1 of the law n. 218/95 that arranges that: “the Italian jurisdiction sussiste when “domiciled” summoned person é. in Italy…”.

The deduction subsistence of the domiciliazione of summoned person in Italy absorbs the other relative issue to the subsistence of the Italian jurisdiction in compliance with art. the 3, 2° codicil L. 218/1995, before or second part with respect to which it seems however to the College that is condivisibili the theses formulated in actions in support of the subsistence of the Italian jurisdiction also second the norms of the private international right. Such norms, in fact, however interpreted, concur to cite summoned person in front of the Judge of the place in which the happened harmful event é and therefore it is that such place comes reported to that one in which the serveur is found that it has loaded the article as expects protesting is that ricomprenda the place in which they have been risentite the harmful consequences of the publication, like indicated from the protested one and in the appealled provision, such places are placed however in Italy.

Analogous, with reference to the raised issues of territorial competence, in the present center to secure is not thought necessary to comment the giurisprudenziale evolution in matter of competent hole in risarcitoria matter for the consequent damages to the realized defamation on linens and/or to opinare on iter the logical continuation in the appealled provision in order to assert the competence of the Court of Vicenza, appearing sufficient to evidence that the formulated principles of right in the sentence of the Supreme Court n. 6591/2002 and you flavored yourself in the appealled provision render “before facie” sufficiently founded the made right to be worth in judgment under the profile of the incompetenza of the dared judge.

2) instrumental and anticipatorio Character of the merit sentence.

The appealled provision is censured from protesting because the correlation would lack between asks of promoted merit (compensation to it of illicit the patrimonial and moral damage deriving from) and the demand to secure (elimination from the situated Internet of the diffamatori written ones).

The claim reason is not thought founded.

In via general, it is not true that the provision of urgency, emitted in order to temporarily assure the effects of the merit decision, must necessarily anticipate the content of the same one, On the contrary the atypical character of the provisions contemplates to you from art. the 700 cpc concurs to adopt the more suitable thought remedies, second the circumstances, to guarantee the made right to be worth and the ancipatorio effect of the merit sentence is only one of the remedies, from part of the osteggiato jurisprudence also, directed to assure the interdettale protection.

In the controversial fattispecie then the denounced defamation realized via Internet, where was effectively sussistente, lasting in the time, would be susceptible to cause continuous damages to the victim of the defamation being gone to aggravate the lesion to the right to the reputation for whose protection has been promoted the merit cause. Therefore, to the aim to safeguard the right set in action from the damaged one and not to aggravate in the time the prejudgment, the inibitoria demand appears the more effective instrument to set in action in via of urgency.

3) Contestazioni on the documentation produced in English language.

The raised issue on the possibility to estimate the diffamatorio character of the written one in contestazione, single product in English language is exceeded from the happened warehouse, during claim, of the translations asserted in Italian of documents originally produced only in English language.

Neither a problem of utilizzabilità of such actions is placed place that, to warning of the College, the translations asserted constitute an integration of the documentation previously produced and not new production documents used them in order to look on to made various from those deducted ones in the judgment to secure of first cures; indeed the translate article (doc. 27) concur better to appreciate the espositivo style and the content of the written object of censorship in its together and not limiting the judgment to the sun parts that had been brought back in existence of citation with the translation in Italian.

4) Fumus Boni Juris.

For how much it at last concerns the diffamatorio character of the article diffused via protesting Internet from the odierno, it thinks the College that the appraisal demanded to the Court goes lead examinee in unitary way the entire article inserted in the situated one of Stair Sainty Guy and not limiting the examination to single phrases or words espunte from the general context.

It is observed in purpose that the part centers them of the article composed of the paragraphs numbered from 1 to 32 in which it comes travelled over again the lead from protesting with respect to the succession to the Crown of Portugal and not censured historical search from Poidimani Rosario that never does not come to you name.

The critics pin on one phrase of the “introduction” of the article and on the final paragraphs of the written one, numbered from the n. 36 to the n. 42, that they represent one minimal part of the diffuse text and that, on the base of the contained premises in the part not censured of the text, enunciate, like corollario, the conclusion that the sig. Rosario Poidimani has not tito it in order to consider itself which expecting to the throne of Portugal.

To prescind less from the veridicità of the thesis diffused via Internet and from the seriousness or of the lead historical search from its divulgatore, the article appeared on the situated one of protesting does not have, to warning of the College, diffamatorio character.

The principles elaborate to you from the jurisprudence of legittimità in topic of action for damages of the damages from defamation to means of the press indicate, which not travalichi unsurpassable limit because the historical critic in personal offense to the subject object of the critic, that one of the expressive continenza and the aggression ingiustificata to the person.

Formal Continenza is that one for which the exposure of the facts it must happen misuratamente. It must also consider that the expressions or the images used in the narration of the facts cannot be founded on universal parameters and sicché the formal continenza must be verified in tightened adhesion to the context in which must operate.

It can also happen, moreover, that the exposure of facts determines (report to you) is rendered with to the opinions (critical) of who completes it, so as to at the same time to constitute critic and report exercise.

In these cases the appraisal of the continenza (substantial and formal at the same time) cannot be lead through the single criteria forms indicates them before to you, but it is attenuated in order to leave space the subjective interpretation of the facts that are represent to you and in order to carry out the censorships that in general terms are wanted to be expressed (Cass. 7628/2002).

The critic of the other people's acts, for being lawful, must therefore be exercised through exposure of facts carried out in measured and pertinent way and, in case the critic is suitable to offend the reputation characterizes them, it does not have to resolve itself in a personal attack, but object of critic (Cass must be justified from the public interest to the acquaintance of the fact. N. 7628/2002; n. 3477/2000).

The article examination object, for how much concerns the formal correctness of the exposure, does not seem has used a language of offensive character: the censured terms and evidence to you in boldface in the summons are words of common use, not gross in how much such, used in an appropriate context and that they do not denote personal acrimony in the comparisons of the criticized subject.

The used “idiot” term to paragraph 37 is not a epiteto reported to the Poidimani, but rather to subjects thirds party that the author of the written one considers of “unprovided” because the inclined ones to believe to the rivendicazioni of the resistant one that, second the thesis of protesting, is in obvious and evident way infondate. For such reason also the use of a word not just pertinent, in the context total and held account that the attempt of the author é that one to censure the behavior of the Poidimani, does not seem to have old the pertinenza limit, cosi like indicated from the jurisprudence.

As far as the total tone of the article that in the appealled provision is defined like “intentionally insinuating, allusive, ambiguous and suggestionante” it seems to the College that those little paragraphs that express they make reference the Poidimani, lungi the being I alluded to you, are on the contrary extremely clear, also if expressed in ironico tone, in asserting that the information supplied from Poidimani on other situated Internet are not to veritiere and deceptive and that the titles nobiliari them of which the same one fregia they have not acknowledged from the European nobiliari associations.

That that is true less is not important issue to the ends to assert the diffamatorio content of the written one that thesis represents spreading of one correspondent to the free affirmation of the thought of the sig. Stair Saint Guy, constitutionally guaranteed.

The conclusions deriving from the historical searches brought back in the text under investigation are sure fruit of a subjective interpretation of the author, that it can less or be shared, but that, when it is expressed without travalicare the limits of expressive continenza cannot be prohibited.

Since you é doubt that the content of the article involves I do not discredit to the credibility of the criticized person, to the ends to estimate the fondatezza of the set in action risarcitoria pretension, appears necessary to on one side contemperare the opposite interests of the safeguard of the reputation of the Poidimani and the free manifestation of the right of critic of the controparte.

Such balance, second the legittimità jurisprudence is ravvisabile in the “pertinenza of the critic to the public interest, that is in the interest of the public opinion to the acquaintance of the fact critic object”.

In the species it seems to the College that sussista a public interest to being informs on the regarding vicissitudes the person to you of the resistant one.

From the objective point of view the relative issue to the dynastic vicissitudes of the Real ones of the Portugal is argument of historical and cultural interest that justifies one public argument and the spreading of the various opinions in purpose.

If then expecting to the throne of the Portugal thinks that the censured article is suitable to damage the own financial activity of intermediatore - as evince from the content of the former resource art. 700 cpc - that it leaves to presume that the pretension acquisition of tito them nobiliari is indicated which credential of reliability they trades that, also from the subjective point of view, she confers public importance to the dealt issue because directed not only to that narrow one cerchia of persons interested to the dynastic vicissitudes of the Real Houses, but more in general terms to who wants to gather information on who introduces like intermediary in transactions founding the own credibility also on high ranking acquaintances and rights to the real succession.

It thinks the College in conclusion that, on the base of the actions, it does not join sufficiently proven the diffamatorio character of the entitled article “To Brief answers to statements made by the supporters of the late Maria Pia De Saxe-Coburg-Braganca, her grandson Carlos Miguel Berrocal y Blais and her alleged cognete; Rosario Poidimani in respect of their claims to the throne of Portugal,” published on the situated Internet www.chivalricorders.org and therefore that the demand caution cannot be received for the deficiency of “fumus boni juris” of the right to the compensation of the damage set in action in the merit cause.

The demanded provision goes therefore revocato.

On expenses of the present claim it will come disposed in the merit judgment.

P.Q.M.

The Court of Vicenza, approval art. the 669 terdecies cpc, in acceptation of the claim deposited in date 24.06.04 from Stair Sainty Guy, REVOCA the emitted former provision art. 700 cpc of the 4.06.04 from the court of Vicenza in the cause n. 8304/2003 RG and object of the present claim.

Expenses to the definitive one.

Therefore decided in Vicenza the 5.08.04

THE PRESIDENT

Dr. GIUSEPPE ROUGH DRAFT

THE CHANCELLOR

DEPOSITED IN PAPAL CHANCERY

THE CHANCELLOR

-This was found at the site - http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.icocregister.org/Poidimani_Sainty.htm&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DPoidimani_Sainty.htm%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Bnguyen 07:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Poidiman Reversions

This is obviously a contentious issue. Can someone explain why these edits keep being reverted as vandalism in spite of the fact that the editor consistently claims that he is making good-faith edits. Let's try to be collegial here.--Eva ^bd 21:57, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The editor claiming to make good faith edits is a known vandal who frequently inserts POV into articles regarding the Portuguese succession and so on. Charles 22:08, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

To be precise, the editor is an associate of Poidimani who has frequently sparred with Sainty and others on Usenet, and who has a long history of involvement in this article. Choess 00:36, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that as well. Charles 01:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, M.deSousa is attacking again! He was just blocked yesterday, but only for a short time. I believe he should be permanently blocked! The Ogre 14:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, you've all convinced me. I'll keep an eye on this, as well. Thanks.--Eva ^bd 14:47, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Eva ^bd! The Ogre 15:26, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

DOB and Image

Can anyone provide a date-of-birth or free use image for Mr Sainty (typed while winking toward the man himself)?--Eva ^bd 19:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

ABOUT THE LEGAL VICTORY OF THE PORTUGUESE PRETENDER DOM ROSARIO POIDIMANI AGAINST MR STAIR SAINTY GUY

The Court of Vicenza (Italy) sentenced for defamation against Mr Guy Stair Sainty in favour of the portuguese pretender Dom Rosario Poidimani,requiring compensation of twenty thousand euro. Here the entire sentence: [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.21.233.237 (talk) 10:50, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

It seems that Guy Stair Sainty was not informed of the case beforehand. His response can be seen here. Heraldic (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:17, 2 May 2011 (UTC).

This is completely false. Mr Stair Sainty know very well this case because for this same in the web site [2] of his friend Pier Felice degli Uberti boasted of winning only because an investigating judge has not obscured his web site containing defamation against the pretender Dom Rosario Poidimani. Now at the end the Court of Vicenza condemned Stair Sainty for defamation. Mr. Stair Sainty was fully aware of this case, only that he could not win because the claims of the pretender Dom Rosario Poidimani are based only on official documents and not talk like this Stair Sainty and his disciples are used. The law condemned Stair Sainty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.252.55.226 (talk) 19:14, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

It should be noted that these unsigned posts have IP addresses that resolve to Trieste, Italy, where Poidimani lives and/or works. Bricology (talk) 17:05, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Poidimani suit

"The Court of Busto Arsizio in the first instance sentenced him to 5 years in prison in January 2011, has already asked the same appeal Appeal sure of his innocence.[23] On April 15, 2013, the Court of Appeal of Milan has definitely fulfilled the pretender Rosario Poidimani by the various charges above because the crime does not exist, the offense is not, not having committed the crime, because the fact is not required by law as a crime and in one case for prescription to which the same Poidimani has already said he would appeal before the Court of Cassation to get the full absolution on the merits and the right compensation for damage suffered." I'm guessing this was written by someone whose first language was not English; I'm not even sure what he or she is trying to say. Would someone more familiar with the subject please review and revise? Biblioteqa (talk) 04:45, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

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