Talk:Freedom Party in Carinthia

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 03:08, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

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Freedom Party in Carinthia → The Freedomites in Carinthia – The party's official name in German is Die Freiheitlichen in Kärnten, thus the obvious translation is "The Freedomites in Carinthia" not "Freedom Party in Carinthia". Checco (talk) 06:59, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: No evidence is given that the party is known by the proposed name in English sources. We go by what English sources call the party. We do not make up a home-made translation of our own because it looks nicer. Skinsmoke (talk) 10:08, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
  • There are no authoritative English-language sources using "Freedom Party in Carinthia" for this party. --Checco (talk) 09:42, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: per WP:COMMONNAME. There are very many more references in English-language sources to the Freedom Party. Brocach (talk) 13:07, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
  • You're probably confusing the regional party active in Carinthia, subject of this article, with the national Freedom Party of Austria. The two parties are now in close alliance, but they are distinct and separate, as suggested by the different names. --Checco (talk) 09:42, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
    • That's a little patronising - I wouldn't be here if I was so ignorant of the topic. I have added copious references to the various forms of the name used in English-language sources; Freedom Party in Carinthia is the commonest. Brocach (talk) 19:08, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: amusing proposal, but no such word. (and search "Party Jörg Haider"). In ictu oculi (talk) 20:41, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Jörg Haider? The FPK was founded a year after his death... --Checco (talk) 09:42, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: The comments above look very misguided to me. In fact, there are no English sources on the "Freedom Party in Carinthia". "The Freedomites in Carinthia" is the only possible translation and it is also the "official" one (see source; see also this one). In case we could move the page to "The Libertarians in Carinthia", what is sure is that "Freedom Party in Carinthia" is wrong, misguided and deceptive. --Checco (talk) 09:42, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
  • More sources on "Freedomites in Carinthia": source 3, source 4, source 5, source 6. --Checco (talk) 10:02, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
• Support: The party's name in the German language translates directly and easily into Freedomites in Carinthia. Also, the party is a separate organisation from the FPÖ branch in the Austrian state of Carinthia and should not be confused with it.--Autospark (talk) 12:46, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: How can the name "translate directly and easily into Freedomites in Carinthia", when the word Freedomites simply doesn't exist in the English language, no matter what sort of bastardised English is favoured by one or two Austrian websites? There isn't, quite simply, an English word that even approximates its sense in German (mind you, I am struggling to find a German dictionary that recognises freiheitlichen as a word either). The best would probably be the phrase freedom lovers, but that clearly doesn't work in this context either. It might just be better to stick with the German title, and move the page to Freiheitlichen in Kärnten. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:36, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: as can be seen from my recent edits, there are four current alternatives to the "only possible" version, with many authoritative sources for them such as BBC, Reuters, NBC, Der Spiegel etc. I can't see why the peculiar "Freedomites" should lead off the list, sourced as it is to blogs, an LLC "book" generated from Wikipedia articles, a government ministry that also uses at least one other version, and one reliable source, the Bundeszentrale für politische Bildung (which is a short English translation, possibly using Wikipedia, from a German-language article). Brocach (talk) 19:08, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: We need an English title, I think. I found here that a translation of freiheitlich is liberal. I still prefer to have "The Freedomites in Carinthia" as article's title, but what do you guys think about "The Liberals in Carinthia"? And what about "The Libertarians in Carinthia"? --Checco (talk) 13:44, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: it's not about what we think is the best translation of Freiheitlichen - in which case Libertarians would be close - it's about finding the most commonly-used English name for this organisation, in reliable sources. Freedom Party in Carinthia, then, unless/until you produce a plurality of RS references to another form. Brocach (talk) 17:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: I do understand Checco's concern about Freedom Party in Carinthia being ambiguous. But why this overwhelming desire to force an English name onto an organisation that doesn't really translate, and on which the sources differ? After all, we have articles on Lega Nord in Italy, Plaid Cymru in Wales, Fianna Fáil in Ireland, Unión Popular in Argentina, Vlaams Blok in Belgium, Grupo Inconfidência in Brazil, Parti Québécois in Canada, MAPU Obrero Campesino in Chile, Partido Auténtico in Cuba, Eniaion in Cyprus, Kadima in Israel, Bund der Deutschen in Germany, Nouvelle Résistance in France, Leefbaar Eindhoven in the Netherlands. Although political parties are usually translated into an English version of their name (because that's what the sources agree on), we don't do it in every instance. There may not be many examples out there, but some do exist where the German form is used:
  • Wahl Fieber Politische Prognosen (an online betting website) (How many votes (in %) will the Die Freiheitlichen in Kärnten - FPK win in the Kaernten federal election, 2013? )
  • The EU Representation Office of Carinthia (Since January 2010: State Vice Chairman of the Freiheitlichen in Kärnten (FPK) (Carinthian Liberal Party))
  • Austrian Times (The magazine News claims an audiotape it released yesterday (Thurs) reveals how the Die Freiheitlichen in Kärnten leader offered a Russian businessman easier proceedings in becoming an Austrian citizen if he invested five million Euros in a project in Carinthia and donated five to ten per cent of the sum to his party.)
  • TV Tropes (Far Right: Freiheitliche Partei Österreichs (FPÖ) (Freedom Party of Austria), except in Carinthia where they're called Die Freiheitlichen in Kärnten (FPK) (The Freedom Party of Carinthia) )
  • Austrian Times (again) (Styrian ÖVP governor Franz Voves and Carinthian Die Freiheitlichen in Kärnten (FPK) governor Gerhard Dörfler said they were against any plans to build asylum seekers’ centres in their provinces.)
  • International Constitutional Law (The fact that the BZÖ (now renamed into Die Freiheitlichen in Kärnten; FPK53) continues to have a strong hold over Carinthia, while having very little electoral success in the rest of Austria, shows just how powerful the heritage of Jörg Haider is, an important part of which is the continued resistance to the implementation of the 2001 decision.) Skinsmoke (talk) 04:26, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: it's not about forcing an English name onto the FPK: it's about using in English-language Wikipedia the name that English-language reliable sources most commonly use for the FPK. Among your sites, Skinsmoke, "reliable sources" doesn't include an English-language interface for a German betting site; www.bka.gv.at might qualify but it also translates it as "Freedomites", see Checco's 12 Feb message above; the Austrian Times site almost always uses "Carinthian Freedom Party" or "Freedom Party in Carinthia", as footnoted in the article; tvtropes.org doesn't even pretend to be a reliable source ("We encourage breezy language and original thought. There Is No Such Thing As Notability, and no citations are needed."); and finally, the Kettemann essay also refers to "the 'Freiheitlichen in Kärnten' [Freedom Party of Carinthia]". I believe that we are stuck with "Freedom Party in Carinthia". (In cases such as Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin, Vlaams Blok, Plaid Cymru etc. it is easy to show that these are actually the terms most frequently used in English-language sources.) Brocach (talk) 16:38, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: I don't particularly disagree with you on the reliability of the sites for establishing that the German language form is the established name in English. That isn't what I was saying. I was simply saying that we may have to accept that there isn't an established form in English that works. If that is the case, we either have to come up with a translation of our own (difficult, as freiheitlichen doesn't really translate into English) or stick with the original German form. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:55, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
• Support: "Liberals" or "Libertarians" should be avoided, because the term freiheitlich has a connotation in Austrian politics that is very much different from "liberal" or "libertarian". While "Freedom Party in Carinthia" or "Carinthian Freedom Party" seem to be quite common in English-language sources, they have the disadvantage that they are inaccurate translations of the actual German name (It's not Freiheitspartei, there is no "Party" at all in the name) and lead to the misperception that the party were a state branch of the Freedom Party of Austria, which it claims not to be. "The Freedomites in Carinthia" would be the direct translation of the German name, "Freedomites" is a very uncommon word in English, but several English-language sources use it (at least seven google books hits, albeit all about the "third camp" of Austrian politics in general, not specifically about its recent Carinthian incarnation). Using the German name (like some English-language sources do) might be a solution, although it contradicts Wikipedia:Use English. Therefore, I have a slight preference for "The Freedomites in Carinthia" or Die Freiheitlichen in Kärnten. --RJFF (talk) 10:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment @ RJFF: the "Partei" is understood in the name, as shown by the initialism FPK, and it is sometimes referred to in German as Freiheitlichen Partei Kärnten, Freiheitliche Partei Kärnten or Freiheitliche Partei Kärntens. Brocach (talk) 10:53, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: Good God! Three names in German? They could have left some for someone else to use. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:11, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • All three German versions are legit and mean roughly "Carinthia Party of Libertarians", "Libertarian Party Carinthia" and "Libertarian Party of Carinthia". I think Libertarian is technically the best translation: Freiheit=freedom, freiheitlich=pro-freedom, Freiheitlich(en)=pro-freedom person(people), and Libertarian captures that, whereas Freedomite is an extremely rare English form (though used in relation to a Canadaian Dukhobor movement. But accurate translation isn't the point. WP uses the commonest version of the name as used in English-language reliable sources, even when that version is not English (e.g. Sinn Féin). Having spent (too much) time looking at English-language reportage on Carinthia, I'm certain that the dominant versions are "Freedom Party in Carinthia", "Carinthia Freedom Party" and "Freedom Party of Carinthia". So Checco's proposal has to fail. Maybe we could now turn to improving the article! Brocach (talk) 20:35, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: I'm not at all confident I would get away with "improving" this article in the way I would like to! Skinsmoke (talk) 20:40, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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