Talk:Eswatini/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Life expectancy

There are currently two very different claims regarding life expectancy, both of which are cited to what I would generally consider reliable sources. In the lead life expectancy is put at 58. Farther down in the Health section it put at 50. The former is cited to The Economist. The latter is cited to the World Health Organization. My belief is that WHO is probably the better source but I would like input before making any changes. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:04, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

The one in health is from 2015, the lead is from this year. --Khajidha (talk) 02:41, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

That's an improvement bordering on the miraculous, if both sources were accurate. While I do not dismiss divine intervention in my personal beliefs, here we generally deal with more science based evidence and sources. I think it would be helpful if we knew where the Economist is getting their data. WHO is pretty close to the gold standard where these kinds of statistics are being cited. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:48, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

According to the CIA World Factbook [1] life expectancy in 2017 was 52.1, tying with Gabon for the 4th lowest globally. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:10, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it is not as miraculous as you might think. Over the past 10-15 years the overall acceptance and reduction in the stigma of HIV/AIDS and antiretroviral medication has been improving steadily. As Swaziland (and the neighboring region of Southern Africa) were so severely hit by the AIDS epidemic the overall life expectancy was thus significantly depressed. Since antiretrovirals (ARVs) are so effective at re-establishing a more normal life expectancy for an HIV patient, things are now just returning to a more normal situation in the country. Thus, we get a big bump in the life expectancy in a very short period of time. I would agree that the WHO data would be the preferable option normally, due to the global reach of the institution, however, seeing as the Economist's data is just so much more recent, I would say that it will be the better option of the two in this case. - Wiz9999 (talk) 19:16, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Actually, upon reviewing the WHO source I can see that the wrong number was taken for the life expectancy value in the first place. The table in the source clearly says Swaziland has combined a life expectancy of "58.9" years from birth. There is a value just to the right of it under a heading that says "Healthy life expectancy at birth (years)" as the value that is reflected in the article, namely "50.9" years. I will make the correction for it now. - Wiz9999 (talk) 19:28, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Survey of reliable sources

WP:NAMECHANGES states, "If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match." It's now been nearly six months since this country's name was changed, so here's a survey of what reliable sources now call it. I've avoided listing wire services more than once, but AP, Reuters and AFP stories are posted on hundreds of reliable news outlets' sites.

Local Media

• Times of Swaziland: Eswatini[2][3][4][5][6]

Despite the newspaper still being called Times of Swaziland, I can't find a recent story in the paper that calls the country Swaziland.

• Swazi Observer: Eswatini[7][8][9][10][11]

Major Media in South Africa

This article is written in South African English and is about a country largely surrounded by South Africa. SA has three major newspaper publishing groups: Times Media Group, Media24, and INMSA.

• AFP via The Times (Times Media Group): eSwatini[12]
• News24 (Media24): eSwatini[13]
• African News Agency (ANA) via IOL (INMSA): eSwatini[14]
• SABC: eSwatini[15]
• eNCA: eSwatini[16]

Major Media in Other English-speaking Countries

• BBC News: eSwatini[17]
• Reuters via The New York Times: eSwatini[18]
• The Associated Press (AP) via The Washington Post: Eswatini[19]
• CNN: Swaziland, eSwatini[20]
• The Guardian: Eswatini[21]
• The Telegraph: Eswatini[22]
• The Sydney Morning Herald: eSwatini [23]
• The Hindustan Times: eSwatini[24]

Other International Broadcasters (English)

• Deutsche Welle: eSwatini[25]
• Al Jazeera: eSwatini[26]
• NHK: Eswatini[27]
• TeleSUR: eSwatini[28]
• RT: eSwatini[29]

International Governments (English)

• United Nations: Eswatini[30]
• Kingdom of Eswatini: Eswatini[31]
• South Africa: Eswatini, eSwatini[32]
• U.S. State Department: Eswatini[33]
• UK Foreign Ministry: Eswatini[34]
• Government of Canada: Eswatini[35]
• Australia Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade: Eswatini[36]
• New Zealand Foreign Affairs & Trade: Eswatini[37]

More than twice as many of the above news outlets use eSwatini vs. Eswatini. Governmental bodies use Eswatini, but Wikipedia tends to use news media over official sources for determining a page name. Media in the country itself use Eswatini. Media in South Africa use eSwatini, and this article is written in South African English. Pdxuser (talk) 13:16, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I feel the reliable sources have overwhelmingly abandoned "Swaziland," and Wikipedia's policy is for us to follow suit. Whether to capitalize it as eSwatini or Eswatini is a closer call. On balance, I lean toward eSwatini, due to it being more common in news media and overwhelmingly more common in the South African English dialect that the article is written in. However, the capitalization is a less significant matter, and whichever one is chosen, the article will note the alternate style. Pdxuser (talk) 13:16, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Would like to see more stories from each source to verify that this isn't just a one time thing for each of them.Say, a rundown of all stories in each since the name change. And stories that basically say "Hey, guys, you know that country Swaziland? Could you please start calling it eSwatini?" will count for nothing.--Khajidha (talk) 17:13, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

I've been thinking anecdotally that reliable sources have gone very heavily over to eSwatini for some time. Have been meaning to do a more thorough evidence check but not found the time yet.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:16, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I'm leaning towards support, but want to see good evidence. Too many times I see people saying that "the country wants this and the UN followed it, so we should, too" but the country's wishes and the UN's policies are pretty much irrelevant to actual usage. I want to make sure we are following actual usage. --Khajidha (talk) 17:25, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

I didn't cherry-pick. Several sources have not done more than one original, non-wire story since the name change. The only inconsistency I found was with the Associated Press, which has done stories using eSwatini as well as Eswatini, but I chose an Eswatini article because it was more recent. Pdxuser (talk) 18:05, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Also, none of the stories I cited are about the name change itself, because Wikipedia's policy is to ignore those. Pdxuser (talk) 18:11, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

All I am going to say in response is to re-iterate two points from above:

1. The concept of WP:COMMONNAME is that wikipedia should follow natural English language use, and the WP:CRITERIA will not be followed if the "eSwatini"/"Eswatini" change is enacted. It is more important that the spirit of these two guidlines be followed than the strict mechanisations described within WP:NAMECHANGES, which is just a subsection of the WP:COMMONNAME guideline. (Namely, that the mechanisations within WP:NAMECHANGES describe that the majority of RS's be followed to demonstrate a change in name use, despite the relatively low level of actual adoption by English speakers.)

2. There is a currently a pending internal court case that has been raised in direct opposition to this change, and it would be logical to not be hasty and to await the verdict of said court case before making any drastic changes to the article.

I do not doubt that established media has adopted this name, you have clearly demonstrated above that they have, with copious amounts of evidence. However, this still does not reflect actual adoption and usage of the name, which logically remains low, despite the established media's widespread acceptance. - Wiz9999 (talk) 12:11, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Given that you don't doubt that established media have adopted the name, your opposition no longer makes sense, and WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES say the exact opposite of what you're saying. Once it's established that reliable sources have changed, we should change. Court cases are irrelevant to that, since they have no bearing on the current common name. If the court decides to reverse the change, presumably RS would follow suit and so would we. But for now, it seems like we should be going ahead and making the move.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:17, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME does not state the opposite of what I have stated, it states that the majority of RS's should be used, which still remains "Swaziland" throughout this article despite the recent change (and in the history of these media outlets as well). My point above is that, in this case, WP:NAMECHANGES is in violation of WP:CRITERIA and WP:COMMONNAME the latter of which it is just a subsection, due to WP:NAMECHANGES here violating the "natural language"/"naturalness" concepts present in both WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA. Surely, WP:COMMONNAME takes precedence over WP:NAMECHANGES here, as this is just of subheading of former. I mention the court case because the official name change by the Swazi government could be undone anyway in a couple of months, at which point, I am sure, the media will immediately do a 180° shift on their adoption of this name. Just as they were so quick to accept it, I have no doubt they will be as quick to drop it. - Wiz9999 (talk) 12:44, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Additionally, any exceptions being made for countries/states to violate what is natural common usage has been met with universal opposition thus far in a discussion begun on the talk page of Wikipedia:Article titles at Wikipedia talk:Article titles#When a country changes its name... (discussion about the WP:COMMONNAME policy). - Wiz9999 (talk) 12:58, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

You write that "the majority of RS's should be used, which still remains 'Swaziland' throughout this article despite the recent change." What reliable sources are you referring to that are still mostly using Swaziland? Pdxuser (talk) 13:35, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

These: Swaziland#References.

Yes they are historic references, but that is my point. "eSwatini" causes a conflict between WP:NAMECHANGES and WP:CRITERIA/WP:COMMONNAME, therefore we should go by what WP:COMMONNAME states as WP:NAMECHANGES cannot be used as described, due to the violation of the "naturalness"/"natural language" of eSwatini over Swaziland. Thus the more acceptable common name is Swaziland, due to the historic sources. - Wiz9999 (talk) 13:49, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Besides, there are still media outlets that are less well established than the big media agencies you listed above that have not adopted the "eSwatini" name. e.g. [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46]. Admittedly these do carry less weight than the large organisations you listed, but there is still an extant presence of media outlets that have chosen to not adopt it or are ill-informed of the term. - Wiz9999 (talk) 14:06, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

"These: Swaziland#References": Not reliable sources cited in the article, current reliable sources out there. Largoplazo (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Adding to your point, it seems unreasonable to determine what the title should be based on sources from before the name change, when WP:NAMECHANGES explicitly says to use reliable sources from after the name change. Also, WP:COMMONNAME says it "prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria." This is the only specific test proposed in the policy page for attempting to objectively determine what meets the five criteria, including naturalness, and WP:NAMECHANGES just modifies that test to say that when there's been a name change, look at the reliable sources from after the change. I don't think there's really a conflict between COMMONNAME and NAMECHANGES. Pdxuser (talk) 15:40, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

"I don't think there's really a conflict between COMMONNAME and NAMECHANGES." That is a matter of interpretation. - Wiz9999 (talk) 16:30, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

There's no conflict there because WP:NAMECHANGES qualifies WP:COMMONNAME. Since the whole point of WP:NAMECHANGES is to apply to cases like this (where there is a change declared in RL that sources may or may not have adopted), any such conflict would render WP:NAMECHANGES meaningless. The appeal to all the sources from before the name change would imply that we should never change an article name until many years after the name becomes common usage.

WP:COMMONNAME says that Wikipedia "generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)". WP:NAMECHANGES tells us that when judging what that is we should give extra weight to post-change sources, and change if they have changed. Ultimately, what matters here are the sources and particularly the sources written since April. Hence the survey above.

For my part, while I have my concerns (individual instances of usage do not imply policy on usage, so I'd much rather see style guides being cited than individual news articles), I think there's a pretty good case for change. Kahastok talk 19:24, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

The only news sources I recall publishing multiple original stories about the country post-change were local media, which I included multiple examples from, and wire services. I only included one example from each wire service because I didn't want to seem to be padding the number of reliable sources by citing, say, six AFP stories on different prominent sites. Here, though, are some relatively recent AP stories mentioning the country[47][48][49][50], some from Reuters[51][52][53][54] and more from AFP[55][56][57][58]. The only news outlet I'm familiar with that lets you search their updated stylebook for free is the AP, which doesn't have entries for Swaziland[59] or Eswatini[60], but they do seem to have settled on Eswatini, while the other two are going with eSwatini. Pdxuser (talk) 03:04, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 12 October 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to eSwatini. WP:NAMECHANGE, WP:COMMONNAME and even a surprise appearance from WP:ENGVAR in the nomination all were used to support the move; meanwhile, WP:COMMONNAME was also used against the move (with the sources that back supporters and the sources that back opposers both falling under heavy attack). Which name is more WP:NATURAL was also brought up, with the idea that it is the old name Swaziland. Nevertheless, no real answer to the WP:NAMECHANGE argument (give more credence to sources posted post-change), let alone the WP:ENGVAR argument (go with South African English usage, all else being equal), was found. This article will be moved. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 00:33, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

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Swaziland → eSwatini – With the survey of reliable sources above, it is clear that Swaziland is not longer WP:COMMONNAME, with only one news outlet after the official name change using "Swaziland" in its article. WP:COMMONNAME uses the "common name" as determined by "its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources," which as can been seen above has virtually all shifted away from Swaziland. Whether to move it to eSwatini or Eswatini can be further discussed, but given that this article is mainly written in South African English, whose papers mainly use "eSwatini," it seems more appropriate to adapt the spelling "eSwatini," although clearly that can still be discussed. Regardless, it is time to move away from this not common name anymore. DTM9025 (talk) 21:16, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support I didn't really think this name would be taken seriously when it was first announced, but from the sources in the discussion above and anecdotal evidence, it seems clear that things have moved quickly and most English reliable sources now use the new name. I also think eSwatini is the correct capitalisation, again per sources. And the argument in the nom about southern African English is a persuasive one. I would expect to use Kenyan English in an article about Kenya, in a similar fashion.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:44, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support, though I would caution that if the court case previously mentioned is expected to be resolved in the near future that we wait to see how it affects things. It would make little sense to change now if the situation were to reverse itself in a short time. If the court case is expected to not be resolved soon we can go ahead with the move now and decide on our response to it later. I just don't want us to be moving this multiple times in short order. --Khajidha (talk) 23:16, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

  I searched for the court case and there was a lot of talk about it in early July, but nothing since. Do we know if its still pending? Either way, it doesn't seem like there's any imminent change likely so there's not much value in delaying when we don't know how long it will be. If we do have to change back again it's not the end of the world anyway.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:42, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support When the legislative elections took place last month, nearly all media sources I read were using the new name. Considering the UN and several others organisations have updated as well, as mentioned on this page, it seem normal for wikipedia to follow suit.--Aréat (talk) 00:42, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support Long overdue, it's clear that's what reliable sources are using at this point so we should too. Smartyllama (talk) 01:56, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
• Weak support. I think that the above probably demonstrates that usage has changed. But I would find evidence from style guides and other descriptions of usage to be far more convincing. The advantage that these sources have is that they tell us what organisations' policies are (whether or not they are followed). Individual news stories tell us little more than the choice of a single writer and cannot be used to infer policies of writers or organisations. Kahastok talk 09:24, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support - sources such as the BBC are now using the updated spelling - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45845485 - Londonclanger (talk) 10:11, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support The United Nations has the country listed as eSwatini. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 11:16, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment What the United Nations calls a country isn't a criterion under Wikipedia's guidelines for determining what the article on it will be titled here. Largoplazo (talk) 17:14, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Not yet In ictu oculi (talk) 15:57, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

The Guardian seem rather inconsistent from one month to the other [61].--Aréat (talk) 16:17, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

And also, the fact that a few isolated sources here and there still use an old name is not in itself a reason to delay moving. The question is what the latest WP:COMMONNAME situation looks like, which means evaluating a wide range of sources. From the review in the section above, it seems like the majority have made the switch now.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:18, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

This is rather why I ask for style guides. The the Guardian style guide commented either way, we'd know that one was the paper's choice and the other the writer getting it wrong. As it is, without a fairly serious study there's only so much we can say. Kahastok talk 08:39, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support move to Eswatini as that is the spelling that the U.N. and Britannica are using. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:00, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Until I see a notable change in the following trend:[62] I will not be convinced that the "eSwatini"/"Eswatini" name is the primary name used in common spoken English over "Swaziland". Despite the widespread acceptance of this name by large established media organisations, the name is still not being used in common vernacular over "Swaziland". This may change in time of course, but it hasn't changed yet. I know that the majority of weighty reliable sources have now shifted their use to "eSwatini", which then complies with the technical aspects of WP:NAMECHANGES, but the change will violate the natural language statement in WP:COMMONNAME, and the naturalness point of the five points in WP:CRITERIA (possibly the recognisability point too). - Wiz9999 (talk) 08:26, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support Similar to the Zaire/DR Congo name change about 20 years ago (yes I am old enough to remember that), which was initially sneered at but quickly accepted, this should be done sooner rather later. And also FIFA ([63]) and the Confederation of African Football have already done their change ([64]). Chanheigeorge (talk) 13:05, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
• Comment - Not trying to have an WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, but if we move this one, we should probably also move East Timor to Timor Leste/Timor-Leste, and Ivory Coast to Cote d'Ivoire/Côte d'Ivoire. Also, how would the new name be sorted alphabetically? Under "E" for eSwatini, or "S" for eSwatini (since the "e-" is just sort of a grammatical prefix like in "d'Ivoire")? Paintspot Infez (talk) 18:08, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

I don't see how that follows. What one country is called is irrelevant to what another is called. --Khajidha (talk) 18:21, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

That is precisely the problem. The claim by supporters of this move is that "Timor-Leste" and "Côte d'Ivoire" have a completely different situation, due to neither one of these terms being commonly used in English. Only the 'official names' of each nation are "Timor-Leste" and "Côte d'Ivoire", but the common names of them are "East Timor" and "Ivory Coast" respectively. The argument being made for change here is that "eSwatini"/"Eswatini" is the common name in primary use by English users, over "Swaziland" (this is not correct, see [65]), in addition to "Kingdom of Eswatini" being the new official name. The argument they are making is that the majority of official sources have adopted the "eSwatini" term and thus it is the most commonly used term. In all likelyhood, if the move were to pass, the spelling order would depend on which spelling was subsequently accepted "E" for "Eswatini" and most likely "S" for "eSwatini". But I still oppose the move in general, as per my opposition statement above, and my many comments in the previous sections above. - Wiz9999 (talk) 21:31, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

• East Timor and Ivory Coast are irrelevant because each case is considered on its own merits. Thus we moved Burma to Myanmar (eventually) because the common name in sources supported that, but we moved Cote d'Ivoire to Ivory Coast (the opposite move) because in that instance sources supported the English version not the government recommended French version.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:45, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

  Not to mention the fact that English is an official language in Swaziland/Eswatini but not in those other countries, making the burden of proof lower for this caae.--Khajidha (talk) 21:50, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

  I'm not saying that each case should not be judged on its own merits. What I am saying is that this case does not have sufficient merit to proceed forward with the change. This happens to be similar to how "East Timor" & "Ivory Coast" do not have sufficient merit to proceed forward with a proposed change to "Timor-Leste" & "Côte d'Ivoire". - Wiz9999 (talk) 21:55, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

  English may be an official language, yes, but the most widely spoken language is SiSwati (95%), which also holds the status of "national language", thus giving it primacy. Anyhow, why should the burden of proof be lower for one state verses another on the sole basis of the language spoken within? To me that seems like double standards, and it should not be relevant to the English speaking community as a whole (for whom this article is intended). - Wiz9999 (talk) 22:04, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

• Very weak support - I actually wanted to Oppose on the basis that Swaziland is used a lot more - in the past month (on Google News) "Swaziland" gives you 13 pages[66] whereas "eSwatini" gives you 11 pages[67] which to me would indicate Swaziland is still the most commonly known/used name .... that being said respectable sources on both sides use either names so there's not really a case to oppose as such, I still believe per COMMONNAME the article should remain however like I said there's not really anything to oppose over as such. –Davey2010^Talk 18:47, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. Too early for that change. Let's wait for the literature and other reliable sources to make the new name a prevalent one.--Darwinek (talk) 19:56, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

The survey of reliable sources above clearly shows that the literature and other reliable sources have moved on from Swaziland so it is definetly not too early. --DTM9025 (talk) 17:35, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. We do not follow official usage. The proposed name is quite new and I suspect a majority of English speakers who have heard of Swaziland have never heard of Eswatini. We should wait for common usage to catch up. Given that the name change happend this year, usage has not remotely caught up. There is no rush: the present title is not wrong. Srnec (talk) 23:19, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME determines its criteria by "its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources," not by Google trends data. The survey of reliable sources above clearly indicate almost all reliable English sources now no longer use Swaziland. So yes, usage has definetly caught up and is now virtually unanimous. --DTM9025 (talk) 17:35, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support – I think that moving the page is the right thing to do now, since almost all websites refer to the country as "eSwatini" instead of "Swaziland" now. I also want to mention that the CAF and FIFA started to use the names "Eswatini" and "eSwatini" instead of "Swaziland" a few months ago. Ben5218 (talk) 15:54, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per @Wiz9999. The Google Trends clearly show a move towards eSwatini, but it is still a long way from being the WP:COMMONNAME. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:37, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME determines its criteria by "its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources," not by Google trends data. The survey of reliable sources above clearly indicate almost all reliable English sources now no longer use Swaziland. --DTM9025 (talk) 17:35, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but under WP:NCGN we can use google trends data for geographic names, specifically in the section under Multiple local names, of which this "eSwatini"/"Swaziland" debate would potentially fall under. Also, @BrownHairedGirl I disagree with the perception that there is a move towards "eSwatini" in the trends data. If anything the data shows that the ratio between "eSwatini"/"Swaziland" usage has remained roughly the same since the official name change back in April. (This may change in time of course, but the current trend is that "eSwatini" is still proportionally low compared to "Swaziland"). - Wiz9999 (talk) 22:01, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. Again. Not the common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:08, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

It is the common name according to the survey of reliable sources above. On what ground do you say it isn't?--Aréat (talk) 17:52, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

That is not a broad enough survey of reliable sources. Srnec (talk) 00:05, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Can you provide more, which are still using Swaziland, then? --Aréat (talk) 17:39, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Every source published before this year. Srnec (talk) 19:19, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:NAMECHANGES we "give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change is announced". If we had to take full account of all pre-change sources, we wouldn't change any article name until many years after the new name became common usage. Kahastok talk 20:04, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

I was unaware of that policy and it strikes me as misapplied in the case of countries. It is not comparable to Bruce Jenner becoming Caitlyn Jenner, or the Sears Tower becoming the Willis Tower. The period after the change over which it is reasonable to make an analysis should be longer, since you cannot expect all kinds of sources to respond to the name change (either by adopting it or ignoring it) in a short time. Books, e.g., are not (usually) published so fast. The exception would be when the country itself changes (i.e., if Saudi Arabia ceases to be ruled by the House of Saud). Srnec (talk) 02:08, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. Again, the common name is still Swaziland in English. We will see in the next future.-Enzino (talk)
• Support The above survey suggests eSwatini has been quickly adopted and is now the preferred name, especially in Southern African usage. The trend is quite clear in that regard. AusLondonder (talk) 10:36, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Maybe in the neighbouring Country South Africa the new name is used, in most English speaking countries still Swaziland is in use, e.g. Canada, United States, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, India, Pakistan, Singapore, maybe other countries in Oceania also. In other European countries with English as a foreign language also Swaziland is in use. So I think South African English is in absolute minority if you look on the topic globally. -- 77.20.253.134 (talk) 17:03, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support eSwatini seems to be the name mostly used by reliable sources now. There is no point in continuing this because from here on out the trend will continue to move in favor of the usage of the nation's new name. Prancer16 (talk) 20:48, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support The support side has provided sources of the change to the new name. Most of the Oppose arguments are weak with little or no evidence, or inaccurate arguments. For example Google Trends (of course more people are familiar with the old name and will search for it, including things like "new name for Swaziland") or statements claiming common name in the absence of evidence, probably based on subjective bias, etc. It's clear from the evidence provided that the majority of current reliable sources have switched to the new name. Greenman (talk) 21:57, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

eSwatini vs. Eswatini

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Now that the move request has been completed in a civil manner (congratulations to the supporters of the move request for their well argued points), I wish to remind all involved, before the move proceeds, why the article currently lists two spelling formats for "eSwatini"/"Eswatini". Hopefully we can have as equally a civil discussion on the matter as we have done in the previous move request.

To reiterate, the reason why the article currently lists "eSwatini"/"Eswatini" with the latter spelling whenever its 'OFFICIAL name' "Kingdom of Eswatini" is used is due to this full term being the only spelling officially being used by the Swazi government when referring to the country/state in English (see [68][69][70]). However, it has currently been assumed in the article that the most prevalent spelling format for the country's 'COMMON name' is actually "eSwatini". This is most certainly due to the influence upon English from the spelling in the local siSwati language, which is undisputedly spelled correctly as "eSwatini" (in siSwati "Swatini" is the base term, which is then modified by putting the "e" prefix on the base to designate its required proper use as the name of the country/state). However, this spelling convention may or may not be consistent with prevailing current usage in English, as the sources seem fairly split down the middle as to which spelling should be used. The reason why the Swazi government chose to spell this term so differently in English when using the full official country name "Kingdom of Eswatini" remains a bizarre mystery. Nevertheless, their adoption of this format seems to have spawned the usage of "Eswatini" as a possible spelling format in English in competition to the "eSwatini" loanword coming directly out of siSwati into English ("eSwatini" has been the name of the country/state in local siSwati for decades, regardless of the use of "Swaziland" in English). This has resulted in clear confusion in media outlets, with approximately half of them adopting one or the other spelling format.

The question I ask to all is; are you satisfied with the current spelling arrangement, and do you support maintaining it, or do you feel the article now needs to use the "Eswatini" spelling throughout instead? - Wiz9999 (talk) 02:41, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Please state in bold whether you are in favor of Support eSwatini or Support Eswatini. All statements simply stating 'Support' will be understood to be equivalent with Support eSwatini, and all statements simply stating 'Oppose' will be understood to be equivalent with Support Eswatini. - Wiz9999 (talk) 10:10, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support My current opinion is that the status quo is to be maintained, unless sources in future predominantly start to use the "Eswatini" spelling over the "eSwatini" spelling. - Wiz9999 (talk) 02:41, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support maintaining status quo of "eSwatini" per above. Paintspot Infez (talk) 16:29, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support - I was under the understanding that the above move request already decided this issue, but just in case there's doubt, yes I also support eSwatini rather then Eswatini, per WP:COMMONNAME. I think the status of the "official name" is debatable, as I've mentioned to Wiz9999 before. Third party sources, for example, [71] say explicitly that the official name is "Kingdom of eSwatini". Whereas the assertion that it is "Kingdom of Eswatini" looks like WP:OR since it was established by inferring somethign from the government's website rather than it actually being explicitly stated anywhere. But either way, the common short name is eSwatini. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 16:34, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

On the contrary, this spelling usage by the government is not just based on the website, but also by publications in the swazi government gazette (see [72], as originally posted by QBear above). Now, seeing as this image appears to be just be a photo of a document instead of a pdf copy, I can understand how its legitimacy could be questioned. However, media reports that mention the specific "Legal notice No. 80 of 2018" document also seem to reflect the fact that it uses "Eswatini" in its spelling of "Kingdom of Eswatini" (see [73]). Besides all this, the UN[74] and other organisations that the Swazi government has made applications for an official name change have accepted the country with the spelling format "Kingdom of Eswatini" when using the country's official name. The evidence does really seem support that this is the 'proper' way of spelling the official name. The common name however, well that is a separate issue. Both spellings do appear to be used by different media outlets, which is why I raised this discussion. However, it does appear to me to make the most sense to not move away from "eSwatini" as the spelling for the common name, due to the crossover from siSwati into English, etc. as I explained above. We will see if other contributors here have the same consensus or not. - Wiz9999 (talk) 06:28, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't think it counts as a WP:COMMONNAME yet. PrussianOwl (talk) 16:45, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support - As mentioned above, I personally prefer eSwatini and would prefer to maintain the status quo. I am open to hearing arguments for Eswatini though and do think this discussion is warnted. For now though, I think that we should keep the status quo untill there has been a shift in usage. --DTM9025 (talk) 18:36, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose the status quo. Support change to Eswatini Our decision to change the name from Swaziland to the current one was made upon the number of sources, either of government, international entities or newspapers using the new name. I think we should decide in a similar way on the spelling. On first look, it seem pretty much evenly split, yet I can't help but notice the swazi government, all of the local swazi newspapers, as well as most of the govermental entites use the "Eswatini" spelling. In my opinion, the Eswatini spelling thus has more "weight". We may need to wait a bit more to see what eventually take roots, but if I had to chose right now I would go with the latter for this reason, which also has the merit of being the usual english way to capitalise words.--Aréat (talk) 18:53, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
• (note that I did not add this "oppose" comment myself; it's unclear to me what I'm supposed to be opposing. I only added the following text, intended as a comment:) I believe the article should at the very least be moved to Eswatini because "eSwatini" is clearly not a valid English spelling (nor is it the common name, because most English speakers know the country as Swaziland). I also don't support the move from Swaziland in the first place; are we going to move other countries to their local forms, e.g. Deutschland, Polska, Latvija, or does this privilege only apply to African countries? --Tataral (talk) 18:22, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Your argument was, along with others, already discussed thoroughly, so please read the previous discussions to find out what all the pertinent responses are instead of soliciting people to repeat them all over again here. The short answer is that we aren't remotely concerned with what any of these countries "should" be called in English but what they are being called. Largoplazo (talk) 21:10, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

@Tataral: Look, I wasn't pleased with the result either, as I strongly supported sustaining "Swaziland" as the title. However, I cannot deny that the move request was performed correctly, and I cannot deny that there was far more support for moving the page then for not moving the page. Therefore, I can accept the results or be obstinate about it. I choose to accept the current circumstance and try to address the resulting consequences. Then I can do what I can to mitigate, as much as possible, the fallout of the move decision, even though I opposed it. - Wiz9999 (talk) 21:57, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia article titles are based on WP:COMMONNAME. The common name is Swaziland. I also note that this move proposal was already rejected twice over a short time span. Starting endless new move requests when your proposal is already turned down multiple times is not a good basis for consensus on the article title. --Tataral (talk) 10:49, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

I reverted the addition of the Oppose tag I added to your comment, I did state in the description of that edit that you should just revert it if you were unhappy with my addition. In future, please use Comment if you wish to simply comment on the ongoing poll to make it clear that you do not wish to be counted either for or against a proposal. - Wiz9999 (talk) 11:47, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support eSwatini usage is fairly evenly split globally, but both the Mail & Guardian and Independent Online (South Africa) primarily use eSwatini, so per WP:ENGVAR let's stick with this capitalization. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:32, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Are you proposing that South Africa is the suzerain of Eswatini? I don't think that South African usage matters one whit. The principle of ENGVAR is based on 'national' varieties of English, and Eswatini is clearly not part of the South African 'nation'. RGloucester — ☎ 21:54, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

eSwatini is an enclave of bordered on three sides by South Africa; it is to be expected that English usage in the two countries will be similar unless there is evidence to the contrary. It is also expected that the local sources would be most aware of the "correct" usage; it would be very difficult for me to go from the United States to eSwatini to research the matter, but much easier for South Africans. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:57, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

That's not what either WP:TITLEVAR or WP:ENGVAR says. South African usage should not dictate how we refer to Eswatini, anymore than should Australian or British usage. In any case, WP:COMMONALITY applies. RGloucester — ☎ 22:05, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

I don't believe there is enough variation between the English spoken in Swaziland, from the English spoken in South Africa, essentially meaning they are both using "South African English" and would not be considered to be separate dialects by a linguist. This is just an opinion though, only a linguist could properly weigh in on the matter, you don't have to take my word for it. However, if you agree with me, then due to the widespread use, number of speakers, and overall dominance of the much larger South Africa vs. the much smaller Swaziland, then Swaziland would be considered effectively a part of South Africa, linguistically speaking, and the ENGVAR would apply here for South African English. - Wiz9999 (talk) 22:16, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

ENGVAR has nothing to do with dialects. This encylopaedia is not written in dialects. There are different forms of standard written English in use in different countries, and we allow the use of these varieties, which largely differ only in spelling, but regionalism never takes precedence over WP:COMMONALITY. But, again, this discussion is beside the point. ENGVAR is about national varieties of standard written English, not about linguistics, not about dialect. It is completely irrelevant to this discussion. RGloucester — ☎ 22:39, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

But the local sources in the country itself use Eswatini. Surely you can't say the source of a neighboring country are more local than the source in the country itself.--Aréat (talk) 01:42, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose, Support Eswatini – In as much as both forms are used, I think we should use 'Eswatini', as this is more natural in English, and avoids WP:ASTONISHing our readers. The American state department and British foreign office both use 'Eswatini'...it clearly is a valid option. From an aesthetic and stylistic point of view, 'Eswatini' makes more sense. There is no reason to go out of our way to use an irregular form when reliable sources use the natural one as well. See WP:NATURALNESS and WP:COMMONALITY. RGloucester — ☎ 21:48, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Meaning you 'Oppose' the proposal to continue using eSwatini? - Wiz9999 (talk) 22:18, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

I would support standardising on 'Eswatini'. RGloucester — ☎ 22:41, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support Eswatini This should have been decided BEFORE the page move and name change edits were done. That said, fully agree with RGloucester. --Khajidha (talk) 22:00, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Meaning you 'Oppose' the proposal to continue using eSwatini? - Wiz9999 (talk) 22:18, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

I really think you should edit your question and ask for everyone to simply state in bold whether they're in favor of eSwatini or Eswatini. I'm under the impression some users here are misinterpreting the vote with the switch from Swaziland.--Aréat (talk) 01:49, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

The whole conversation should be restarted. As it is currently written, "Support" means the same thing as "Support eSwatini" but not "Support Eswatini". And "Support Eswatini" means the same thing as "Oppose". That is a good recipe for a totally messed up vote. DO NOT just edit the proposal again, as that confuses the issue as to what each comment here was referring to. --Khajidha (talk) 11:46, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Frankly this needs to be redone anyway, as it is becoming clear that a move proposal request is needed for this now, as it is starting to seem like roughly half the users are for a change to 'Eswatini' and half are for keeping the status quo 'eSwatini'. - Wiz9999 (talk) 11:56, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

As I said, the question of whether to use "eSwatini" or "Eswatini" should have been posed before the article was moved in the first place. Yes, the decision was to move FROM Swaziland, but the question of exactly how to present the new name should have been settled before the move was actually done. --Khajidha (talk) 12:36, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

I agree with your sentiment. - Wiz9999 (talk) 12:38, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

If you really need it spelled out, then yes. I am for standardizing on Eswatini. --Khajidha (talk) 11:42, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, we do need this, just see all the confusion that happened when Tataral above was not clear that his statement was just a comment. - Wiz9999 (talk) 11:50, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

"All the confusion" happened because this poll iwas horribly malformed from the beginning. --Khajidha (talk) 11:56, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support Eswatini: If the sources are really split in half and both spellings are equally common or widespread, then we should adopt the spelling that (1) is officially adopted and (2) conforms most to the usual English spelling of proper nouns. $\color {blue}\chi$_chi (talk) 11:33, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 24 October 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus is to move to Eswatini. Consensus is most reliable English sources are going with the more conventional spelling. (non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 19:24, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

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eSwatini → Eswatini – In light of the recent move of the article to "eSwatini", it has become clear that it needs to be decided which spelling format to use for the article's title. Yes, this should have been decided prior to the move request away from "Swaziland", but unfortunately this did not happen this way. Now that the move has already been completed, it still needs to be decided which spelling format to use.
Do you support the move of this article to "Eswatini"? If so please use "Support Eswatini" or use "Support eSwatini" if you feel that we should keep using "eSwatini" instead.
Note: This is NOT a discussion on reverting the name back to "Swaziland", as that move discussion was already conducted above in the 12 October 2018 move request. If you wish to further discuss that issue please do so in another section, or use "Comment" if you feel it relates to this spelling change for some reason. Wiz9999 (talk) 12:35, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Eswatini - just simplify it. No need to have both choices given as "support", you're just asking for more confusion. --Khajidha (talk) 12:50, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Also, this isn't really a move discussion, per se, it is more a clarification of the result of the move discussion. --Khajidha (talk) 12:57, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes it is a move discussion, as there will be a page move made if "Eswatini" is accepted. - Wiz9999 (talk) 13:01, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Of course it's a move discussion. The article's at one place. The outcome will be either "moved" or "not moved". One can support the move or oppose the move. There's nothing here that calls for special instructions on how to cast one's !vote. Largoplazo (talk) 13:03, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

The move discussion was phrased as to be "away from Swaziland" with "eSwatini" or "Eswatini" being set aside for further discussion. Am I the only one who saw that as saying that the process would go 1) decide whether to move at all, 2) decide what format to move to, and ONLY THEN 3) actually move? --Khajidha (talk) 13:26, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

It was my understanding that this would be what would occur as well, which is why I opened the previous section. I did this after the previous move discussion closed. However, the page was then moved to "eSwatini" two hours after I created the section, in defiance of my discussion request on the spelling issue. - Wiz9999 (talk) 13:37, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Besides, the move request was from Swaziland to Eswatini, so it shouldn't have been moved to eSwatini in the first place without a discussion. --Aréat (talk) 14:15, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Actually, the move request was to "ESwatini", with the double capitalization meaning that the display title template would be used. However, the mention that the eSwatini/Eswatini issue would be discussed later made me (and apparently others) think that that choice was just to have something in the discussion title. The written request seemed to be saying, "don't worry about capitalization yet, we'll figure that out if we actually decide to move". --Khajidha (talk) 14:19, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

• eSwatini − I support keeping the title of the article as "eSwatini". The 'OFFICIAL name' is "Kingdom of Eswatini", which is where this new "Eswatini" spelling format originated from. However, (when not considering the term "Swaziland") the spelling that should be used for eswatini, if it is to be considered the 'COMMON name', should be "eSwatini". This is due to the origin of this word in English as a loanword out of siSwati ("eSwatini" has been the name of the country/state in local siSwati for decades, regardless of the use of "Swaziland" in English. In siSwati "Swatini" is the base term, which is then modified by putting the "e" prefix on the base to designate its required proper use as the name of the country/state). The reason why the Swazi government chose to spell this term so differently in English when using the full official country name "Kingdom of Eswatini" remains a bizarre mystery. At this point in time, both spellings seem to be in common use by media outlets in a roughly 50%/50% split. If the spelling "Eswatini" starts to show prominence one day then the page can be moved to this spelling format then, otherwise the status quo should be maintained as "eSwatini". See my many comments in the above sections on these term/spelling issues. - Wiz9999 (talk) 13:02, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose on procedural grounds. Stare decisis for now. Out of the Support !votes that led us this far and that mentioned either spelling, one mentioned only the "E" spelling, one mentioned both spellings, and all the rest mentioned only the "e" spelling. Largoplazo (talk) 13:07, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose and speedy close. The capitalisation issue was part and parcel of the RM above and this version found consensus, so no need to keep flogging this.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:11, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

This was absolutely not the case, it very clearly said in the RM above: "Whether to move it to eSwatini or Eswatini can be further discussed". No consensus was reached on a spelling format, it was not discussed, only consensus was reached on the principal of which term to use, as this was by far the greater issue at hand. - Wiz9999 (talk) 13:52, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Not my sentiment as well. We discussed on the move from Swaziland, but not on the exact spelling of the new name. It seem apparent that several of us in favor of a move expected the discussion to switch to it once the change was approved, and ended up surprised by the sudden move to eSwatini.--Aréat (talk) 14:44, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

• Eswatini: It is mentioned that the sources are split in half and both spellings are equally common or widespread. Therefore, all else being equal, we should favour the spelling that (1) is officially adopted and (2) conforms most to the usual English spelling of proper nouns.

I would also hardly call eSwatini the "status quo", seeing as it has only just recently been hurriedly renamed. $\color {blue}\chi$_chi (talk) 13:13, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

It is the status quo as it is being used in the article's body whenever eswatini is mentioned (not just the title, which was a recent change). However, when the official name is used in the article, then "Kingdom of Eswatini" is used, which is correct, despite the confusing usage. Don't blame editors for this, blame the Swazi government for creating this confusing circumstance by adopting a spelling that was never used prior to their name change announcement in April. - Wiz9999 (talk) 13:43, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

• Eswatini – In as much as both forms are used, I think we should use 'Eswatini', as this is more natural in English, and avoids WP:ASTONISHing our readers. The American state department and British foreign office both use 'Eswatini'...it clearly is a valid option. From an aesthetic and stylistic point of view, 'Eswatini' makes more sense. There is no reason to go out of our way to use an irregular form when reliable sources use the natural one as well. See WP:NATURALNESS and WP:COMMONALITY. RGloucester — ☎ 13:41, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support Eswatini for now per the arguments presented by editors Χ and RGloucester above. I would also note that the eSwatini proponents only succeeded in moving the article to that title just recently, after their proposal had already been rejected twice this year. I don't consider this a very good basis for a consensus on the article title. It is likely that editors who aren't as invested in the attempt to move the Swaziland article to eSwatini would get worn out by the endless (three in a short time span) move requests created by eSwatini proponents when their previous proposals failed. At the very least least we should use the English spelling of this new name (or should we also move Russia to Росси́я?) Surely the exact spelling was never the issue of this most recent RM; the main issue of that discussion was whether to ditch the English WP:COMMONNAME Swaziland in favour of a local form, a highly problematic and contentious issue in itself. --Tataral (talk) 13:46, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
• Eswatini - if it is 50:50 for 'eS' or 'Es' in equally important sources, thus both equally common, Wiki should prefer the one which makes more sense and logic (long name Eswatini-> short name Eswatini) and meets English spelling conventions (1st letter capitalized). Or in this 50:50 case prefer the one with more official recognition among government agencies in English speaking countries. IMHO the previous move was hasty, everyone was happy to get rid of Swaziland but it was not decided which variant of eswatini is the correct one to move it to... - That's why don't say "eSwatini" is status quo, it was justed rushed mistake and it can still be undone :) Chrzwzcz (talk) 14:10, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
• Eswatini - As stated above, our decision to change the name from Swaziland to the current one was made upon the number of sources, either of government, international entities or newspapers using the new name. I think we should decide in a similar way on the spelling. On first look, it seem pretty much evenly split, yet I can't help but notice the swazi government, all of the local swazi newspapers, as well as most of the govermental entites use the "Eswatini" spelling. In my opinion, the Eswatini spelling thus has more "weight". We may need to wait a bit more to see what eventually take roots, but if I had to chose right now I would go with the latter for this reason, which also has the merit of being the usual english way to capitalise words.--Aréat (talk) 14:31, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
• Comment – The Swazi mission to the UN uses 'Eswatini', as do official documents they release. In addition to the American and British foreign office examples listed above, the Australian, New Zealand, and Canadian foreign offices do the same. Britannica also uses 'Eswatini', which is relevant, as the usage of other encyclopaedias is mentioned as being of significant weight in the WP:UCN policy. RGloucester — ☎ 20:40, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support Eswatini - As others have stated, if the English media has a 50/50 split, the name that makes the most grammatical sense should be used. While there is good reason that it is eSwatini rather than Eswatini in Swazi, this does not mean that that name should be transliterated into English. We don't do this in any other language even if they do have the same grammatical rules as English (Munich, not Muenchen; Germany, not Deutschland; etc.), so I don't see any real reason to make an exception in grammar rules, especially because it confuses readers when something so significant, such as a nation's name, does not follow standard English grammar conventions. In addition, as RGloucester points out, the Swazi mission to the United Nations uses Eswatini, the official name of the nation is Kingdom of Eswatini, and while there is some presence of eSwatini, most Swazi organizations use Eswatini. Therefore, until the Swazi government clarifies, we should us Eswatini.

• "Swazi"? What are these "Swazi" of whom you wrote? Surely the point behind "eSwatini" is that it's the country of the Swati people (or the emaSwati). Largoplazo (talk) 00:18, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

I haven't seen anything that would suggest that the usage in English of the Swazi name for the country has any implications for the terms for the people or their language. --Khajidha (talk) 10:43, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Swazi is still a perfectly acceptable term to use to describe the people and/or language of the Swazi/Swati ethnicity that exists in approximately equal numbers in South Africa and in neighboring Swaziland. Just because the common name of the state has possibly changed does (A) not mean the English version of the language's name or the English version of the ethnicity's name will have necessarily changed, and (B) it also does not mean that all English speakers HAVE to use it or accept the "eSwatini" term. Many will undoubtedly still prefer "Swaziland", as that is the term they have used since they were children (such as myself), its possible to have multiple names for places in English without there being a problem caused in normal English communication (See List of alternative country names for a list of many of them). It is why redirects exist (WP:OTHERNAMES). - Wiz9999 (talk) 13:16, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

• Eswatini: The official name of the country is “Kingdom of Eswatini”, Eswatini is used in Eswatinian government documents, U.N. uses Eswatini, U.S. Department of State uses Eswatini. It’s pretty clear that the official English name for the country is Eswatini. (As a sidenote, I think that the rulers of Eswatini made a mistake and should have chosen Swati or Swatia as the official English name for their country. But that’s not for me to decide, of course.) 46.242.13.150 (talk) 18:09, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
• Eswatini as per above and as per official usage by the government of Eswatini. ― Дрейгорич / Dreigorich Talk 19:51, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
• Comment: I have noticed that the Government now uses Eswatini on their official page - [75] although it would be worth finding an official act renaming the country for final conclusion.--Twofortnights (talk) 20:59, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
• Comment: I believe that was brought up in a previous discussion, but I'm not sure where. I remember hearing that it was officially Eswatini. ― Дрейгорич / Dreigorich Talk 01:22, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
• Comment I'm fine with both "Eswatini" and "eSwatini" but I would oppose "ESwatini" with two consecutive capital letters. Regardless of the outcome, I think we should be consistent throughout the article. I noticed that the article uses possible variation of Eswatini in the earlier parts of the article, and then it goes on to consistently call the country "Swaziland" in the later parts of the article. I think it's fine to continue referencing "Swaziland" in sections focusing on history, but we should use the article name in the majority of references to the current day country. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 14:39, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Clarification: If the outcome is for "eSwatini", there's no way to force the underlying title to be "eSwatini", because Wikipedia titles always begin with a capital letter. We can only use the template, as is being used now, to display the title with the lower-case first letter. Largoplazo (talk) 15:25, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Clarification: "Swaziland" occurrences throughout this article (bar historical references) will in large part be changed once this move discussion on spelling has been concluded. - Wiz9999 (talk) 20:46, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you both for these clarifications. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 16:50, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

• Eswatini Based on secondary source and some primary (such as [76] stated above). Matthew hk (talk) 08:25, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

• Eswatini After much consideration, I am ready to !vote. I think the best course of action is to use "Eswatini" primarily as it's what the Eswatinian/Swazi government uses, and it's what I'm seeing many sources use. We can - and almost certainly will - continue to note that in the Swazi language, weSwatini / eSwatini is the name used, but the official name is in fact Eswatini. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 16:50, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Renaming 435 categories

Please see this discussion at CfD. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:22, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Many thanks to @Lugnuts for posting this notification.

I just want to add that this is a BIG renaming. It consists of Category:Swaziland and 434 of its sub-categories. It would helpful to have input from members of this project, on the CFD page at WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 November 5#Swaziland. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:04, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Demonym

Has any consensus been reached on whether the demonym "Swazi" should be replaced with something else?

We currently have Category:Swazi people and its subcats, plus others giving a total of 163 categories using the word "Swazi". If there a clear consensus to change the demonym, I would be happy to do another mass CFR like the mass renaming proposal which I started earlier today for 435 categories containing the word "Swaziland". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

As far as I am aware, there has been no change to the demonym in recent years. The English translation of "siSwati" (the term for "Swazi language" in the local language) is still "Swazi", and the English translation of "emaSwati" (meaning "Swazi people" in siSwati) is still "Swazi". Unless something has changed that I am unaware of, in English "Swazi" remains an acceptable means of referring to the language and the people that inhabit Swaziland and South Africa in roughly equal numbers. - Wiz9999 (talk) 16:13, 5 November 2018 (UTC)