Talk:Derry Citizens' Defence Association

Political not sectarian

The Apprentice Boys parade celebrated the Siege of Derry: a political/military episode. Discontent in the Bogside arose out of grievances around housing and gerrymandering, which kept the unionists in control of the city council, i.e. it was political in nature. The terms "Protestant" and "Catholic" were used, and sometimes still are, but that was because nearly all unionists were Protestant and nearly all nationalists were Catholic; the conflict did not revolve around religious doctrine. Scolaire (talk) 07:34, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

A political/military episode of Protestant victory over Catholics, not British unionists over Irish nationalists; housing discrimination and gerrymandering might have been products of loyalism, but they affected Catholics without regard to their politics. You're right about religious doctrine but wrong about unionism and nationalism; the disaffected in Derry didn't start to come to the conclusion that a United Ireland might be the best long-term answer to their woes until months after the events described in this article: see [1]. Gob Lofa (talk) 08:34, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Not a political/military episode of Protestant victory over Catholics, a political/military episode of Williamite victory over Jacobites. It was part of the Glorious Revolution: "the overthrow of King James II of England, VII of Scotland and II of Ireland by a union of English Parliamentarians with the Dutch stadtholder William III of Orange-Nassau (William of Orange)." Religion was involved, but it was primarily a political conflict. It is disingenuous to say that the Bogsiders didn't want a united Ireland until some time after the deployment of the British Army. They and their fathers and grandfathers had wanted it (and seen it as a long-term solution to unionist oppression) ever since partition was first proposed in 1914. To quote the book you linked to:

A broad swathe of Catholic opinion, from the Catholic church and the Nationalist party through to the Independent Organisation accepted the presence of the army. They saw it as necessary, as much for the restoration of law and order and some form of 'policing', as for the 'defence' of Catholic areas in Derry. Initially there was a great deal of goodwill towards the army and there was what one Republican later described as a ‘pathetic love relationship’ between the army and people in the Bogside.

That's a far cry from being essentially unionist in outlook. The British Army was "accepted", only because they were preferable to the local "forces of order", not because they were in any way regarded as "our" army by the Bogsiders. There's nothing else that I can see in that extract that might conceivably be read as saying that they were perfectly happy to remain in the United Kingdom.

As to "they affected Catholics without regard to their politics", well of course they did. Catholics were targeted because they were all seen as nationalists, and therefore Catholics suffered regardless whether they had any political views at all. That doesn't alter the fact that unionist policies were political policies, aimed at keeping the minority in subjugation.

This is not to say that there was no such thing as sectarian conflict, or that there was no sectarianism within, for instance, the RUC. But the underlying cause of the strife between the people of the Bogside and the unionist authorities was political. Scolaire (talk) 12:25, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm not saying they were unionist, I'm saying their Irish nationalism wasn't a factor in their fight against state and civilian Protestant supremacism until well after the BotB. The tricolours only came later. Gob Lofa (talk) 12:56, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that is a complete distortion of history. The tricolours only came later? Have a read of this: "the Flag and Emblems Act...prohibited the showing in public of the tricolour. No one troubled too much about its provisions when it came to displaying the flag in Nationalist areas only..." This was in 1964, five years before the battle of the Bogside. Paisley's insistence on the removal of a tricolour from a building in Belfast led to riots just as serious as those of 1968-9. Nationalism was right at the heart of Catholic grievances against the unionist state at every period between the creation of said state and the abolition of Stormont – see this book chapter by D. G. Boyce and the entry on the Nationalist Party in the Encyclopedia of British and Irish Political Organizations. I'd like to see reliable sources of equal weight that say the opposite. Scolaire (talk) 19:05, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm talking about Derry just before and during the BotB. The book I linked to shows how this eventually changed, but at the start it was anti-supremacism, not nationalism, that drove them. Gob Lofa (talk) 09:58, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

At the start? How do you define the start? Did it not start with the creation of the state? Was the city cleared of Catholics in 1968, and were they replaced by non-nationalist, non-flag-waving Catholics who then began to be persecuted just because of their religion? Eddie McAteer, leader of the Nationalist Party between 1964 and 1969, who was elected to Stormont for Foyle (= Derry) in four successive elections, was a Derry man, as was his brother Hugh McAteer, an IRA leader who was the only non-unionist candidate in the Londonderry constituency in the Wesminster election of 1964. The DCDA – since this is what we were talking about – was formed by Seán Keenan, Paddy Doherty and Johnnie White, two of whom were IRA leaders in the city. The notion that in this one locality, in this one year, nationalism was abandoned even by IRA leaders, and sectarianism went from being part of the problem to being the sole problem, only for nationalism to suddenly and unexpectedly reappear a year or two years later, is untenable. It is certainly not what Ó Dochairtaigh says in his book. I have read that book from cover to cover; I am not just relying on impressions gained from a quick scan of an extract on CAIN. Scolaire (talk) 14:02, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I define the start as the beginning of the Battle of the Bogside. I'm not saying the people involved weren't Irish nationalists and I don't understand why you think I am. I'm saying their nationalism is not what drove them to stand up to the loyalists trying to keep Catholics in their place. Their nationalism did drive them to kill much later, but it wasn't a factor here. Gob Lofa (talk) 14:42, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Look, you have an idea in your head. I have shown you four times, in four different ways, that your idea is wrong. Just repeating it again will not make it right – not the fifth time or the fiftieth time. Please, just drop the stick. --Scolaire (talk) 16:27, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

The idea in your head seems to have been that I'm saying something different to what I'm actually saying. I'm at a complete loss as to what you think you've showed me. If you can show me how their nationalism was relevant to opposing the march, that'd be great. Otherwise, why not add other irrelevant attributes? You could always start referring to them as whites, for example. Gob Lofa (talk) 17:17, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I have endeavoured to show that the DCDA was a nationalist association whose aim was to protect the nationalist population of the Bogside from the RUC, the armed paramilitary police force of the unionist state, and mobs of loyalists, i.e. militant unionists. If that is what you were saying all along then I apologise. I was under the impression that you were saying it was religious in nature. Either way, I'd like you to stop this silliness. It's a complete waste of time. Scolaire (talk) 17:29, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

You have shown that the DCDA had Irish nationalists in it. That doesn't make it a "nationalist association"; it was a citizens' defence association. By describing it as a nationalist association, you give the impression that Irish nationalism was an intrinsic part of the DCDA; I see no evidence of that. Gob Lofa (talk) 18:07, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Goodbye. Scolaire (talk) 18:09, 17 July 2015 (UTC)