Talk:Damour massacre

2005

User:Gramaic asked me to comment on this page. I know nothing about the specific incident, so I have little to say about the specific content, but I would suggest that this is the type of topic where references should certainly be given, and none are. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:40, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

references

Here's some of the references I looked at;

[1]

[2] .

BTW, according to those references, the Damour massacre is what later led to the Sabra and Shatila massacre. --Gramaic | Talk 18:49, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

• I have to say: I'm not particularly impressed by the only sources being one on GeneralAoun.org that ends with "God bless the souls of our martyrs" and an unsigned page on Geocities. I'm not saying any of this material is wrong, just that it's not very well cited, and you might do well to hunt down a press source, or a respected international agency, or some such, because inevitably this will be a controversial article and should probably have better citation. Anyway, I would suggest that if these are your references, you should add them to the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:03, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
  • I've justed added those two links to the article, but I will search for better sources. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 20:24, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

the massacre was carried by the saika which is controlled by damascus but not an islamist group. Also, I think that Saika is part of PLO but it's unclear if Arafat had any control on it--equitor 04:41, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

• • • LOL, shoot, well if ending with "God Bless of the souls of the martyrs" disqualifies documents from being sources, then I should never have made those changes to the bicycle article. Babajobu 20:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Inaccurate and full POVs

This article is fairly inaccurate and grossly fulled of POVs. It needs to be reviewed. For example; there's misinformation, vagueness and contradiction as to whom committed the massacre. The article states that the PLO and LVM are the ones who committed it while the real perpetrator were the As-Sa'iqa. The article goes on describing the horrible details of mutilation in an inflammatory manner inadequate to an Encyclopedia.WisamFarouk (talk) 13:07, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

source

as for the source, I think that that the priest in (father labaky) wrote a testimony book about the massacre --equitor 05:06, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

actually I am sure, but it's not for sale anymore--equitor 05:16, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

"Incident" section

Ian Pitchford, can you please tell why you keep deleting this section. What is stated in that section is a fact. You said in the summary "for which no references have been provided." I provided sources, and you deleted them. I would never add anything to an article if it did not have sources. Thanks, --Gramaic | Talk 20:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Cedarland.org

I replaced the anonymous Geocities link with a link to this Lebanese Christian website. It's exactly the same material, but claimed by the organization rather than just left floating out in cyberspace. The Geocities page was from an earlier effort by the same people who later created Cedarland.org Babajobu 20:49, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Sources of information

Here's a source I found as I searched through Amazon.com. To let everyone know ahead of time, the pictures shown on that site are quite graphic and disturbing. --Gramaic | Talk 08:12, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

An encyclopedia should be comprehensive, authoritative and cite relevant scholarly sources. Inaccurate web pages full of POV commentary don't qualify as "sources" in this context. How reliable can the pages be when they both have the date wrong? It will be a considerable boon to all interested in this event if we can find and list appropriate scholarly sources. --Ian Pitchford 15:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I have a hard time believing that multiple Lebanese Christian websites get the date wrong on a massacre of Lebanese Christians, and only Mr. Pitchford's "honorable white liberals" get it right. There's got to be more to this. However, I do agree that these should probably not be listed as sources...but they are definitely appropriate as external links. The aggrieved community's account of its own butchering is absolutely relevant. Babajobu 15:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Can you think of any reason why the date might be deliberately inaccurate? --Ian Pitchford 15:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I can, yes, but I can also imagine why sources favored by Robert of Arabia may have fudged the date, too. In general "when the swarthy colonials disagree, just ask Sahib Robert (or whoever is the nearest white male) what actually occured" is not a good strategy for getting at the truth. I'd like to see more sources before concluding that all the Lebanese Christians are lying because Sahib Robert said so. Babajobu 15:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Mordechai Nisan concurs and Fisk's account is eyewitness, not derived from "sources". --Ian Pitchford 16:23, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Eyewitness? Were the Palestinians pulling him there on a rickshaw so he could observe the silly little locals massacre one another, "good show, good show, sport"? How was he an eyewitness? Regardless, if it is true, and if it true that the family members of the massacred Lebanese are engaged in a cynical political disinformation campaign, I still think their account of their own communal butchering is notable as a link. Babajobu 16:33, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure we both want to assist readers by finding good sources and citing them - let's concentrate on that. --Ian Pitchford 16:34, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Okay. Babajobu 16:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I seem to remember there's something about a link between Damour and Sabra and Chatila in Friedman's 'From Beirut to Jerusalem', though he gets the date wrong too (Feb 1976). I'll check later. --Ian Pitchford 16:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

(<--- move back to margin) Mr. Pitchford, I the linked pictures very clearly indicate that bodies, including those of children, were mutilated. It would be hard to imagine more explicit "proof" that such things occured. So I've reverted to the previous version (but made a minor copyedit). However, I won't engage in a revert war. If you want to revert back, go head. But I don't think it's justified. Babajobu 13:11, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I added the links to the pictures. They don't show any decapitations, mutilations or dismemberments. These events could have occurred, but I haven't yet been able to find any reliable references to them. --Ian Pitchford 14:20, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I must have followed Gramaic's link, which included pictures of children with their limbs removed. Is that link not in the article? Actually, if we do put it in the article, it needs not to be a hypertext link, and has to include a warning. Babajobu 15:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm willing to stick with your version, but I still sense a "sahib Robert is right, other people are wrong or lying to the extent that they deviate from sahib Robert's account" mentality here. If there were a Palestinian account of the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, would you head the link that this was "an extremely partisan and contentious account" of the massacre. I think the link should just state that it is a Falangist account. Babajobu 15:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

The Phalangist account is inaccurate - just read the opening sentence. --Ian Pitchford 16:02, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

About the mutilating and maiming, if the link I provided above is not enough proof that such incidents took place during the massacre, I don't know what is! Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 19:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Pitchford, you've stated it so that "some sources claim" that people were mutilated. How is that you are not convinced by the pictures of mutilated bodies? To me this is equivalent to stating regarding the Sabra and Shatilla massacre that "some sources claim that people were killed." Do you think that would be appropriate? Babajobu 01:53, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

You can find father Labaky's testimony on a lot of websites (some versions are slightly different because people edit the text). After some research I was able to find its origin: The PLO by Jillian Becker. ISBN 0312593791 --equitor 05:15, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

• "Nisan, M. (2003). The Conscience of Lebanon: A Political Biography of Etienne Sakr (Abu-Arz)." A biography by an Israeli of a leader of an Israeli proxy-militia is hardly a reliable source. It should be removed. FunkMonk (talk) 15:54, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Church in Damour

I added a statement to the article, about the church being used as a repair garage and a target practice. But I also added "Other sources claim" at the beginning of the statement so we can remain NPOV. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 20:09, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

--Gramic, i have a feeling that you are part of the lobbying group that is trying to distort some of th ewiki articles regarding Israel, PLO etc.. i have tried to look for an apropriate source including UN mission in Lebanon and none were to confairm claims that a church was converted to a "garage". Also after some research the deaths at that week did not exced 37 people from both sides Saika and the Damour natives. Saika is not part of the PLO they are a separates group that had direct ties with Syria. I advise wiki editors to re-examin this article, and its source.- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.173.162.129 (talk) 14:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Formatting

The text is "wrapped" around the small square Table of Context box in order to avoid ugly gaping holes of blank space. Try alternatives yourself and see the effect. "TOCleft" is preferably, unless there are reasons for setting it at the right. There is currently an editor going about making a mess of carefully formatted articles to satisfy some obscure personal agenda. --Wetman 21:52, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

BBC link

Do we need this link in the "External links" section? It talks about Lebanon, but there's no mention of even the word Damour itself. --Gramaic | Talk 00:08, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

forces who carried out the massacre

The intro refers to

the combined forces of the Lebanese National Movement, which consisted of Palestinians from the Fatah, Habash and Hawatmeh movements

This isn't what the LNM consisted of at all, although the Palestinian groups mentioned were allied to the LNM all right. This needs to be fixed.

Also, the peculiar reference to the "Habash and Hawatmeh movements" should be changed to "the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine" if these groups were indeed involved. Palmiro | Talk 12:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

We've all been struggling with the paucity of sources here. If you have something useful you should go ahead and add it. --Ian Pitchford 18:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I didn't realize that "Habash" here actually referred to George Habash, founder and leader of the PFLP. Makes sense, I'll change the reference. Babajobu 19:01, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Introduction makes more sense. That's a good change. --Gramaic | Talk 00:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Contradiction?

The claim that none of the 349 remaining villagers survived seems to contrast with the broader range of possible victims given in the introduction. I wouldn't know which one is correct, but I guess the wiser thing to do would be to remove the "349" from that sentence, if it is known that there were no prisoners taken. Arre 04:27, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

War.of.lebanon documentary

In the documentary made by Al-jazeera TV channel, communist leader George Hawi said that the damour invasion was a syrian response to what was happening in the east beirut camps, especially the LF attacks on Tal-al-Zaatar. He also mentioned that syrians had US backing on this issue at that time. Thats why "al-Saiqa" forces where present, they were under strict command of Hafez al-Assad. Similar quotes were also made by Phalange member Karim Pakradouni in that documentary. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by H-CTR (talk • contribs) 25 Feb 2006.

Weak citation

The citation for 1000 dead at Karantina is from 111101.net, basically a literary webzine based in Beirut. They do not provide a citation for their number. I'm not saying the number is wrong; I am saying that it could use a better citation. - Jmabel | Talk 04:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Very dubious edit (& probably copyvio) reverted

I have reverted to the version of 14 March 2007. This was massively rewritten on 17 March, with what appears to be a straight plagiarism of the uncited and rather biased www.cedarland.org/damour.html. - Jmabel | Talk 05:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Picture annotation

PLO guerrillas locked in the women and children before lighting the church on fire.

Strange annotation seeing as the picture is of the South Lebanese Army HQ in Damour. It is also strange that the reasoning for choosing to attack Damour is missing from the article....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 14:47, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

• The pictures are hardly owned by the Lebanese Forces, as is claimed, have no sources either, so they should either have fair use rationales or be removed. FunkMonk (talk) 16:19, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Its not claims or by the Lebanese forces the LF didnt even exist at this time they came in 1977 to protect cghristians from stuff like this. i am saying this as someone who doesnt come from a LF family (believe me I dont) but whats stated about the horrific ats here are all true and sad thing is history has overlooked it because Arafat bought the Media with his millions from the gulf. This is what the Christians and those survivors of this massacre have testified and their photos the PLO took sadistically themselves that even show it. The palestinians did do that, they also turned Churches into Garages and put Arafats picture on the manifest. I can upload a picture of the Children they mutilated and cut into pieces grotesquely its very graphic and groesteque but if that isnt a enough a realible for you.♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 01:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

How is it overlooked? By the time of Damour, there had already been the Tel al-Zaatar and Karantina massacres, which are arguably even more overlooked. The fact is, the massacre on Palestinians like the Sabra Shatila one were on a much larger scale, therefore it might, deservedly, have gotten more attention. The Israelis and Kataeb could have bought the media just as well as the PLO did, certainly had the resources for it. FunkMonk (talk) 11:49, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

More like on a much more reported scale even in Lebanon the goverement and Media overlook the victims of the PLO onslaught (Which i am sorry did outnumber palestinians) but nobody forgets Shatila and Sabra. The PLO did buy the media even the Lebanese papers many of them were bought by the Gulf or Arafat to write in POV of the PLO, Kataeb had nowhere near the amount of money as the PLO were getting from the Gulf and Arab states even Said Aql noted this was one of the biggest challenges that Christians & Lebanese faced. PLO used those massacres for their propaganda this is not my words this what even one of their supporters Robert Fisk. Tell Zattar you should keep in mind took THREE MONTHS to siege that camp and it was an attack against the PLO (in their thousands) who used that camp to attack the Christians of that area with it was becomming a ceasspole for terrorists even the Lebanese Front were still using weapons from Ww2 while the Palestinians had more men and advanced weaponry. Really more against Palestinians? You can only name those 3 I can name ones I bet you never heard of since Cameras or Press werent sent there or bothered to report them.

• Chekka Massacre
• Jdeidit Baalbak Massacre
• Al Kaa Massacre
• Ras Baalbak Massacre
• Aychiyeh Massacre
• Barouk Massacre
• Batmeh Massacre
• Breeh Massacre
• Deir Achach Massacre
• Deir Jenin Massacre
• Kfar Nabragh Massacre
• Maasir Beiteddine Massacre
• Machghara Massacre
• Kaddam Massacre
• Maasir Massacre
• Mazraat El Chouf Massacre
• Tall Abbas massacre
• Jieh Massacre
• Achrafieh Massacre
• Hosh Barada massacre
• Akhe Massacre massacre
• Ain El Remmaneh massacre

Taalabaya, Jwar el Hoz, Aintoura, Abaydiyeh, Araya, Chebanieh, Maasser Beiteddine...villages were partially or completely destroyed and its inhabitants massacred. I could list more

How many article in Wikipedia mention of have been made for those massacres? ♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 22:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

If you can find reliable sources describing those as massacres, well, you should create articles about every single one of them instead of complaining about them not being covered. That's how Wikipedia works, after all. I doubt the scale of the massacres you list are anything near the three ones I mentioned, and that's what I meant by "scale", not the number of alleged massacres. There were more minor massacres on Palestinians as well, just like there were more minor massacres on Maronites. But nothing done against the Maronites compares to what was done to the Palestinians in scale. You haven't explained any details on these massacres, only given a list, which doesn't really help much. And again, don't tell me the Israelis wouldn't be able to help the maronites with propaganda, they did so in many other cases, and supported them financially as well. FunkMonk (talk) 23:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Dont worry I will be adding these articles very soon Actually the biggest "Massacre" against the palestinians was not done by Kataeb or in Shatila and Sabra but by the Shia of Amal in the war of the camps but this is never brought up in historic context or talked as a massacre simply because 1) the Israelis werent there 2) the PLO didnt use it for propaganda for their cause Yes your right the Maronites had their country destroyed and power in the country dimished and millions now live in diaspora but its still only the Palestinians who should be recognized as victims and their role in the root of this war ignored and we should continue to lynch the Maronites instead. The PLO had billions from the Arab states, Kataeb didnt have billions or where getting money from Israel.Infact even America was against the Christians this is something however their current leadership doesnt put into perspective.Give me an example of them helping Maronites in the media propangada? infact Christians were terriably demonized in the Media by the Press and to this still are by Leftists like Robert Fisk and other radical progessives. All the Journalists where based in West Beirut so please dont even bother denying Arafat had the media biasly in his favour.Most of those listed massacred happened before Israel even entered the war, the alliance the Christians had with the Israel was one out of survival and desperation, The palestinians got their money and weapons for free from the Arabs whereas the LF had to Pay for every bullet that got from the Israelis and no one bought media, its clear you are a PLO apologist for its crimes in Lebanon. Some in the Gemayel family were even skeptical about making a formal relationship with Israel Pierre Gemayel against the opinion of Ettienne Sakr thought making a peace pact with Israel or normalisation would be closing 22 doors and opening 1

LOL I am not a Maronite I'm Orthodox many of those alleged massacred as you put it happened in our areas and towns aswell.Alledged massacres? yes all lies only palestinians and the PLO tell the truth ♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 00:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I neither accused you of lying or of being Maronie. All I'm asking for is reliable sources. And maye some numbers, to put things into perspective. FunkMonk (talk) 00:43, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

References

Syrian

The Syrians were not PLO supporters. Fact Syria had a PLO purge in syria at this time....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The Syrians were ARMING both sides, they switch to siding with the PLO back and forth when it suited them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.45.201 (talk) 13:12, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

1500 dead at karantina?

Who the hell writes this stuff? I was there, I'm Lebanese, I lived through all of it, and the amount of palestinians killed in Karantina was less than 20. Could not even be called a massacre. This page should be written from trusted sources, not from some ignorant westerners who can't even find Lebanon on the map and have a pro-palestinian POV and want to justify anything the palestinans did.

The sources say so, whatever you claim is irrelevant. FunkMonk (talk) 03:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I have to step in here. The amount killed at karantina is certainly greater than 20(though most killed were militants, many civilians were killed), but according to most of the sources I heard, it didn't amount to more than 200 at the most. The sources reffered to ,like fisk, are all from western pro-palestinian activists who at the time were living at the other end of the world with no ability to know what was happening, and probably couldn't find karantina on the map. But then again, if the all-knowing White Man says so, then who cares about the eywitnesse accounts and bodycounts of the stupid natives who were there and went through all of it.--94.187.96.34 (talk) 19:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

See the sources in the article, they all say the same. Find credible sources that claim otherwise, your opinion doesn't matter at all. And tell me, did you personally count the bodies or what since you seem so sure? FunkMonk (talk) 03:17, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

And your opinion does not matter either, FunkMonk, nor does that of the biased pro-Palestinian sources you are using. When you find some unbiased sources, we'll be more than happy to accept the numbers you put forward. --λⲁⲛτερⲛιξ^[talk] 17:00, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

You have not substituted the sources (which have been there for years without my involvement) with others. Blanking refs is vandalism. FunkMonk (talk) 19:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Note the article's now on a 1 revert per 24hrs restriction along with all the other Israel/Palestine articles.--Misarxist 10:31, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

What exactly does it have to do with that conflict? Israel was not involved in any way at all. In any case, reverting obvious vandalism (which contradicting the sources used in a sentence and thereby making it look like they state something they do not certainly is) is allowed. FunkMonk (talk) 11:49, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

This article was mentioned on I/P collaboration discussion page. I guess 1 revert per 24hrs restriction's aim is to reduce edit wars and to encourage dispute resolution via discussion. Totally appropriate here. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 12:53, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, it's meant to reduce edit wars in relation to the Arab Israeli conflict, not the PLO/Phalangist conflict. And 1 rv rule here would be counterproductive, since the edits of Lanternix and friends, which are clear POV pushing OR and pretty much vandalism, would be harder to get rid of. FunkMonk (talk) 16:51, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me, FunkMonk, I did not review sources yet, so I can not express any opinion on content dispute in hand, though as restriction goes, it is formally defined by membership projects. Sometimes Food fight could break up even in surprising place like Falafel... AgadaUrbanit (talk) 18:26, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

But it is not within project Israel, for example. FunkMonk (talk) 11:34, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Great, the Palestinian editors can say whatever they want, and anyone who doesnt like it is a "POV pusher and vandal". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.42.185.83 (talk) 10:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

No, anyone who adds credible, published sources can add whatever they want, but people who remove these and replace them with unsourced and made up claims are pov pushers and vandals. Should be obvious. FunkMonk (talk) 11:32, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The only reason you call them "credible, published sources" is because they satisfy your own point of view. You take a ridiculous figure of 1500 dead seriously when there isn't even a single picture of a dead body? Where you even alive at the time kid? Where you watching the news like everyone else in Lebanon?(I'm assuming you're lebanese too since you're editing this article, but you probably aren't). Did you see the news like everyone else? Did the news show any masses of dead bodies piled on top of each other like in Damour and in Sabra and Shatila(which by the way are supposed to have a smaller death toll that than Karantina). Can you cook up a single picture of a dead body from those "thousands" of dead at Karantina? Could the armies of photographers and reporters missed 1500 dead bodies? You are willing to impose on everyone the "credible" sources which also say that "the Palestinians were trying to 'save' Lebanon form the evil christians"? The sources which are apologists for the PLO? Did anyone here step in when you were trying to find an excuse for the damour massacre by filling the whole article with "Palestinians avenging karantina in damour"? Did you even know that the attack on damour actually began on the 9th of January, before karantina? And in any case did anyone on wikipedia make an excuse for the Karantina massacre that it was revenge for the massacre at Deir 3shash?

If you continue to use those biased sources, then I'll be happy to use some myself too, like the Kataeb site or the LF site.--63.216.124.116 (talk) 14:41, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Now please tell me "The sources say so, your argument is irrelevant.", so I can add my sources too.--63.216.124.116 (talk) 11:25, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Even if the sources were biased, they would be leagues more valid than no sources. Understand? This is a basic Wikipedia principle. And by the way, a person like William Harris[3] is in no way comparable to an involved party like Lebanese Forces in reliability. FunkMonk (talk) 11:36, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, your ridiculous claim that these one-sided propagandists and lyers are anymore credible than the Kataeb site, I'll accept. So I used a credible source, the al-akhbar newspaper, which by the way is a pro-palestinian communist-leaning newspaper, and it says, in a long article paying homage to the victims of the massacre, that 300 died. So if a pro-palestinian article says 300, the actual amount is probably far less. Now find a source as credible as this one if you want to keep arguing, otherwise, it's vandalism and POV-pushing.--63.216.124.116 (talk) 14:41, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Don't replace the sources, give an estimate, from 200 to 1.500. And by the way, William Harris, who gave the 1.500 number, is pro-March 14, so hardly pro-Palestinain or "Communist". FunkMonk (talk) 16:44, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Like was said before, a pro-palestinian western activist who can't find lebanon on the map,gets figures and estimates out of thin air, and simply multiplies the actual figure by 10 because he wanted his "revenge massacre" at Damour to be justified, is not a credible source.

Want me to repeat it again? Pro-palestinian biased source-No good Source. Clear enough?--63.216.124.116 (talk) 17:07, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

No one wants you to repeat anything. Now Lebanon is pro-March 14, and Harris is pro-March 14, so please, keep your misinformation to yourself. "William Harris is a professor in the department of political studies at the University of Otago in New Zealand. His most recent book is The Levant: A Fractured Mosaic (Princeton: Markus Wiener, 2005), which won a Choice Magazine Outstanding Academic Title Award. He is currently working on A History of Lebanon, 1640-2007 for Oxford University Press in New York." And: "William Harris, preeminent scholar of the Levant and author of the classic text, “Faces of Lebanon,” speaks exclusively to NOW about the current situation in Lebanon, his recent article in the Wall Street Journal, the state of the international tribunal – and what’s in store for us all if the tribunal fails to take place."[4] Looks like we've used up our reverts, by the way. FunkMonk (talk) 17:13, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Again, if someone find sources that give another number, add them ALONG with the older sources, don't replace them FunkMonk (talk) 16:39, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

And whatever the IP said about "eyewitness accounts", if it has a valid citation, feel free to put it in, but for the 17th time, DO NOT REMOVE OTHER REFERENCES. FunkMonk (talk) 12:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Dead Link?

I read this section, and reviewed the low-speed edit war in the lede. I thought perhaps something giving high and low estimates would work. But when I checked the sources, it turned out that this one: http://www.al-akhbar.com/ar/node/173626 , the one that Propagandist and the IPs have been trying to use, does not respond. Temporary? If not, it has to go. And in any event, the other sources are reliable, and should be restored. Jd2718 (talk) 15:44, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Yep. FunkMonk (talk) 16:36, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060114230542/http://www.freelebanon.org/articles/a381.htm to http://www.freelebanon.org/articles/a381.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060418174633/http://gallery27973.fotopic.net/c72041.html to http://gallery27973.fotopic.net/c72041.html

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"empty the city"

Its WP:SYNTH to combine Fisk calling it an act of ethnic cleansing and the ICTJ report, which never once calls it ethnic cleansing, to connect the quote with Fisk's usage of that term. Im moving the quote to the body, and attributing to Fisk "ethnic cleansing" as that does not appear to be the common way of referring to this massacre, or any in Lebanon really. Im also restoring that it was revenge for an earlier massacre. nableezy - 19:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

This page lacks adequate sourcing.

There are numerous dead links, including to sites that seem to have a partisan bias. 2600:4040:6068:9B00:C81A:A64D:F2B2:BA28 (talk) 01:49, 5 November 2023 (UTC)