Talk:Cross-Strait relations/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Requested move 28 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Consensus against moving this page. (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 01:07, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

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Cross-Strait relations → China–Taiwan relations – Since all of the other pages are named "Country–country relations", there is no reason why this page should be an outlier. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 21:45, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: Given the unique situation between the PRC and ROC, the standard naming scheme doesn't work that well because both claim to be China. O.N.R. ^(talk) 23:38, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
  • Officially, the ROC is known as Taiwan. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 01:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
    • Umm, pretty sure you have it the wrong way around. Taiwan is the colloquial name, it is officially known as the Republic of China (ROC). 118.156.233.232 (talk) 10:27, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
      • Well China mainland is officially known as the People's Republic of China, yet all of the other articles refer to it as China. Also, the other pages about relations with Taiwan call it "Taiwan", not ROC. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 20:15, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NPOV. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 16:18, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't exactly see how those apply here. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 01:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: The potential POV issue noted by O.N.R. and Mx. Granger should be rather obvious, because the proposed title implies pretty strongly that Taiwan is not China. However, the current title does have a hypothetical problem of ambiguity – e.g., it could refer to relations between the UAE and Iran across the Strait of Hormuz. Perhaps a move to PRC–Taiwan relations or PRC–ROC relations or Relations between the People's Republic of China and Taiwan or Relations between the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China could be reasonable. However, there doesn't seem to have been enough concern about ambiguity to include a hatnote about it (at least not yet). Another possibility for refinement could be using lowercase for "Strait", since "Strait" (by itself) might not really be considered a proper noun. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:42, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

To my knowledge, the term "cross-Strait relations" is in practice only used in reference to the Strait of Taiwan and not any other straits. So I don't see an ambiguity issue here. But if that is a concern, I note that some sources use the term Cross–Taiwan Strait relations, e.g. [1]. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 19:47, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Another term I see in the article is Mainland–Taiwan relations, which might work. But I don't see a big problem with the current title. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 05:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I have never heard anyone call China "Mainland". Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 20:11, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, not out of concern regarding the new title, but because we name similiar pages with the X-Y relations WP:NDESC because there isn't really a name for them. In this case however, we have a WP:COMMONNAME name for the relations, which is Recognisable, Natural, Precise, and Concise, so I do not think we need to find an NDESC just to also hit the consistency WP:CRITERIA. CMD (talk) 10:00, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Per concerns raised above. 118.156.233.232 (talk) 10:27, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
• Comment None of the other pages are formatted by the full name. The country is officially known as Taiwan, and China is officially known as China. Taiwan is not casually referred to as "China". Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 20:10, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

  Oh yeah, and also, both North Korea and South Korea claim to be "Korea" but the article about their relations is still called North Korea–South Korea relations. That article might as well be moved to Korean Peninsula relations. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 20:17, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merger proposal from Cross-Strait conflict

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was merge. DrIdiot (talk) 14:39, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

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Request received to merge articles: Cross-Strait conflict into Cross-Strait relations; dated: November 2021. Proposer's Rationale:

The article Cross-Strait conflict screams WP:OR:

• The belligerents list makes no sense. Why is Cuba on the list? Why not France? Or the UK?
• The problem is that the scope of the "conflict" is not well-defined. China and Taiwan have huge trade volume, so in what sense are they in an economic conflict? Many countries have relations (informal or official) with both -- so whose side are they on? In what sense is this a conflict at all?
• Currently the content of the article consists only of military conflicts. But there are many years between the 2nd and 3rd Strait crisis... surely what happened during those years is of importance and should be discussed? I.e., as is done in the current article, Cross-Strait relations...?
• A quick google search shows that the term "cross-strait conflict" is basically never used, and mostly used in the context of a hypothetical future military conflict. Very few articles frame the current relationship between Taiwan and China as an "ongoing conflict".

DrIdiot (talk) 16:16, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

This is a bit off track but I would assume that Cuba is included because their military fought the Taiwanese military in Yemen (officially neither military was in theater). Not really sure the conflict in Yemen was part of the Cross-Strait conflict though, that has more to do with Saudi-Taiwan relations than anything else. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:52, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Support merge, I see nothing which suggests that the conflict is separate from the relationship. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:53, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support merge. I agree with DrIdiot's assessment of the article. The infobox seems like OR and does not need to come along for the merge. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 17:51, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
  • I think most of the content is actually copied from other articles as well, so the merging would mostly just check to make sure those articles are linked to from here and discussed in appropriate depth. DrIdiot (talk) 17:45, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 8 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 19:21, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

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Cross-Strait relations → China–Taiwan relations – To test User:Dosafrog, do you support or oppose? Media in recent years outside of Mainland China and Taiwan use such name. 142.112.227.19 (talk) 22:14, 8 February 2022 (UTC) 142.112.227.19 (talk) 22:14, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose and speedy close: The same proposal was just rejected 3 months ago and there is no indication that the situation has changed. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:30, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose and speedy close: Giving that the proposal was rejected in December, i think this discussion should be Speedy close per WP:SNOW. 125.167.59.74 (talk) 22:34, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support per the WP:COMMONNAME being China-Taiwan relations. BilledMammal (talk) 15:40, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Speedy close. Not enough time has passed since the last RM, so it's likely to reach the same result. O.N.R. ^(talk) 03:40, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NPOV and speedy close per above. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 16:27, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support per WP:PRECISE. Showiecz (talk) 20:10, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NPOV and speedy close per above. It's clearly a politically-motivated proposal. 2001:8003:9008:1301:D5FB:D4BE:2FD1:B90C (talk) 13:14, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support. I don't see much refutation of the premise of the move here, and yes the matter was discussed a few months ago but there seem to be important issues that were missed. Namely, high quality sources use the proposed name and it appears to be the WP:COMMONNAME, e.g. [2][3] and secondly there is a WP:RECOGNIZE issue here. I wouldn't automatically know what this article was about from the title, whereas the proposed one is crystal clear. Finally, given that we our articles on these two "states" are titled China and Taiwan, it's hard to see what is the "political" reason for not titling it accordingly. If there's an issue with that, then raise it at one of those two pages. This is WP:NOTAVOTE and Without any significant refutation of the underlying rationale, it should be moved. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 23:00, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.