Talk:Coronation Scot

Coronation-Class locos after #6229

user:Redrose64 (Undid revision 510294820 by ErkDemon (talk) 6235-6244 (to traffic June 1939-July 1940) were also streamlined and crimson when new; black began with 6245 in June 1943) (undo)

Mmm... but I think that the photo caption talking about "the next fifteen streamlined locomotives" is potentially (and perhaps unnecessarily) misleading, since it might be taken to imply that this was a batch or run of fifteen. There was a first batch of five blue-with-silver-stripes streamlined locos (6220-6224), which were designed to run with the matching blue-with-silver-striped Coronation Scot carriages, so those are obviously relevant ... the next order for ten locos in the Class were half-and-half, with five more streamliners (6225-6229) and five unstreamlined (6230-6234), but these streamliners were in red with gold striping to match the new planned second-generation version of the train, with more luxurious and prestigious carriages designed to compete with the Pullmans, in LMS-based colours.

That run of five red streamliners is relevant to the Coronation Scot, because the last of them, 6229, was sent over to the USA with the new prototype red-and-gold Coronation Scot carriages on a promotional tour. However, it got marooned over there with them when the war broke out in late 1939, and those carriages didn't get shipped back over here until after the war ('46?), by which time the train was extinct. So I don't think that any of the "red" locos other than 6229 ever had the chance to haul the "red" set of Coronation Scot carriages, as the Coronation Scot. They were on the wrong side of the Atlantic.

Unless LMS ran red locos with the blue carriages, or ran a nominal "Coronation Scot" service using the red locos with other carriages (which I haven't yet checked), I'm not sure how relevant locos subsequent to 6229 are to an article about the train.

As you say, locos 6235-6244 were also ordered as streamliners, but only three of them are listed as having been in service before the war broke out (and we're talking July/August, with Poland invaded on September 1st, so they'd have had a narrow window of opportunity). I don't have the exact date as to when the Coronation Scot stopped running - the sources I have to hand say "the outbreak of the War". I also don't yet know the exact dates at which they started painting/repainting the locos black - the ones that hit the tracks before the war (e.g. City of Birmingham 625) would have been initially crimson, but sources seem to be a bit vague about the initial paint-jobs of the rest of this batch - the people maintaining the "Livery" section of the Wikipedia page on the Coronation Class seem to have chickened out and skipped 6235-6244 altogether, which perhaps suggests some potential uncertainty or disagreement. Sources say that the locos were repainted black "quickly" or "rapidly" after the start of the war, I don't yet know whether this means that any were repainted so quickly that they were already black by the time they went into service ... or not.

My suggestion would be that since this is an article about the train rather than the associated loco class (which has its own, much more detailed and better-sourced page), we initially restrict ourselves to only including information about the first two batches of locos, five blue and five red, 6220-6229, and treat all the locos after 6229 as being assumed to be mostly out of the scope of the article ... unless and until anyone can offer up any info suggesting that any of those post-6229 locos ever ran as part of the train (in which case we look at it again).

I'm going to try to get hold of the LMS book, if any post-6229 locos were involved, hopefully the book might document it. ErkDemon (talk) 01:42, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

The livery history of the locos is covered extensively in

• Hunt, David; Jennison, John; Meanley, Bob; James, Fred; Essery, R.J. (2008). LMS Locomotive Profiles, no. 11 - The 'Coronation' Class Pacifics. Didcot: Wild Swan. ISBN 978-1-905184-46-0. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Discussion of the livery begins on p. 136 and runs to p. 159. The individual loco histories on pp. 164-171 record initial liveries and all subsequent changes. It is clear from this that 6225-29 and 6235-44 were all delivered in crimson (Hunt et al. 2008, pp. 139, 165, 167–8); and the first loco delivered new in black was 6245, to traffic 26 June 1943 (Hunt et al. 2008, pp. 141, 169). At least one loco was repainted from blue to crimson - no. 6221 in Novemver 1940 (Hunt et al. 2008, p. 139); repaints to black occurred from 1943 (Hunt et al. 2008, p. 143). --Redrose64 (talk) 14:16, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Cool. But do we have any indication or suggestion that any of those post-6229 locos ever hauled the Coronation Scot? ErkDemon (talk) 13:27, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Again, Redrose64! I was just thinking, your detailed info on 6235-6244 liveries might be useful for the LMS_Coronation_Class page. They have a section on liveries, but it "skips over" those ten locos. Interesting about 6221 "going red". Hm. Presumably the blue stripey Coronation Scot carriages also got repainted and repurposed at some point, I should probably try to find out when. ErkDemon (talk) 13:57, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Both sets of coaches are described in

• Essery, R.J.; Jenkinson, David (2000). The Illustrated History of LMS Standard Coaching Stock - III: Non Corridor, Special Purpose and Self-Propelled Vehicles. Shepperton: Oxford Publishing Co. pp. 89–106. ISBN 0-86093-452-7. 0007/A2. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

The 1937 sets (i.e. the blue ones) were essentially normal Period III stock, but refitted with luxury interiors (such as just two seats across a first-class compartment, instead of three). They were taken out of service in September 1939, and stored at Horwich (two sets) and Lostock Hall (one set). After the war, they were taken out of storage and returned to service in 1947 but not as sets - they were mixed into the general pool (Essery & Jenkinson 2000, p. 89). --Redrose64 (talk) 15:00, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

6hrs 30 mins journey time?

The article gives the scheduled journey time as 6hrs 30mins, which strikes me as implausibly fast for the 1930s (with an average speed of about 61.5 mph). I note that a source is given, but even reliable sources can be wrong. A scheduled time of about 7hrs 30mins seems more likely. Norvo (talk) 13:59, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

It's not that implausible when you consider that the locomotives were capable of speeds of over 100mph, and there was only one stop. G-13114 (talk) 17:55, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

See Hunt, David; Jennison, John; Meanley, Bob; James, Fred; Essery, R.J. (2008). LMS Locomotive Profiles, no. 11 - The 'Coronation' Class Pacifics. Didcot: Wild Swan. p. 113. ISBN 978-1-905184-46-0.

The intended schedule was 6 hours (to match the LNER), but this was not felt possible with 9 coaches, so from the start the official timing was 6 hr 30 min, with a 2-min stop at Carlisle. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:53, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Norvo (talk) 00:29, 12 August 2015 (UTC)