Talk:Coatbridge

Hey! What's happened to this article?

I've taken the Wikipedia guideline to be bold to heart.

I've lurked around the Coatbridge article for a long time and thought it needed tidying up. In the past, I've made a couple of edits, but, mostly, I seemed to be undoing vandals' contributions.

A couple of months ago, Neilston made featured article. I'm not saying featured article should be a target, but it gave a useful template to copy. That's where most of the work came from.

Please read the Wikipedia Five Pillars.

Of particular relevance are the Wikipedia article on NOTABILITY and the Wikipedia article on citing SOURCES.

I've done the following:

• split the previous Coatbridge article into 12 sections;
• added some of the Coatbridge versions of the Neilston information, paying attention to cite relevant sources;
• removed some information that I thought wasn't notable enough or didn't cite sources (sorry);
• added some pictures.

However, I don't own this article. I'm not an administrator. Other people will know much more about Coatbridge than I do, or be able to take better pictures of the town centre or Cliftonhill (from the top of , for example), or know more about the railways, past and present, that pass through, or know more about it's pre-industrial/industrial/post-industrial past, etc. So, please contribute.

For edits yet to be done, I've noted a few comments beside each of the sections, below, but they're just my thoughts.

Intro - As I've split most of the original intro into more relevant sections, a suitable intro needs to be rewritten. Does anyone know how to write Gaelic pronunciations?

1. History - almost everything needs a source, but the one I've provided the link has some good info.
2. Governance - mostly complete.
3. Geography - a description of the lie of the land/soil types, etc, would be good. As Coatbridge was extensively mined, this should be available somewhere.
4. Demography - mostly complete.
5. Economy - if this section could include past industry, it should be one of the largest sections. Also, surely Coatbridge has more to offer today than shopping centres? Do Tannoy still manufacture? Do they do any R&D?
6. Landmarks - Summerlee is about to reopen. Possibly a description and link to its own page (it should be notable enough).
7. Transport - needs something on past stations/trams/disused railway lines.
8. Education - some of the current text has been copied from the College website. Surely somebody knows something about education in the area?
9. Sports - Drumpellier Park seems to host yearly 5k or 10k races. Various boxing/tae-kwan-do competitions are held in the Time Capsule. Who organises these events? How often? How popular are they?
10. Public services - mostly complete.
11. Notable people - are we really happy all these people are notable?
12. References - not done.
13. External links - not done.

Come on, Coatbridge! Let's raise our game! Just look at the Airdrie article.

(For the people who have spent time typing information into Wikipedia, you can still recover your words by clicking on the Coatbridge History tab at the top of the article. It could then be cut and pasted onto a more appropriate website.) --ML5 (talk) 00:13, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

i know, it's not brillant. the Airdrie article has been taken better care of. sadly, i can't submit pictures to the article nor do i have books (since i live in Kirkcaldy and that one is not in the best shape, when you consider the work put into Glenrothes). it's nice to see some pictures have been added of lately, but there some noticable things that need to be done, like for instance, adding two sub-sections in the economy section- one town centre and leisure facilities (cinema, Time Capusle) that would help and adding a new introduction with the content menu being pushed down.

i have come across too many articles that have been abandoned for months, because people don't spend any length of time sorting them. if i can find time, after i sort out several fife articles, particularly Kirkcaldy, then i'll see what i can do about it. Kilnburn (talk) 21:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Great job you've done in re-writing the article - must have taken you ages. Well done! Baron Olivers (talk) 10:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Coatdyke an area of Coatbridge? Really? Has the postcode ML6 so surely in Airdrie? Panthro (talk) 00:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

References

Transport - Historic Railway Lines

The Caledonian Railway and North British Railway, with their respective predecessor companies had interests in Coatbridge.

• Caledonian Railway

Caledonian Railway Main Line

Garnkirk and Glasgow Railway

Rutherglen and Coatbridge Railway

Wishaw and Coltness Railway

• North British Railway

Ballochney Railway

Bathgate and Coatbridge Railway

Coatbridge Branch (NBR)

Monkland and Kirkintilloch Railway

Monkland Railways

North Monkland Railway (RAILSCOT on North Monkland Railway)

Not all these lines have articles and/or route maps (yet!!!). --Stewart ^(talk) 20:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Coatbridge's connection to Ireland

Recent edits have highlighted Coatbridge's connection to Ireland. I believe there are connections, but they should not be overstated. Glasgow, Liverpool, London, New York and Boston all have links to Ireland, but mainly of historical interest. As the 2001 census found, there are less Irish people in Coatbridge than the Scottish average.

Also, nobody uses the phrases "Little Ireland" or "The Vatican" as nicknames for Coatbridge. If somebody said "I came frae C-brigg", I would know that Coatbridge is being referred to. But, again, nobody uses "C-brigg" as a nickname for Coatbridge.

Further problems can happen with circular references. Some facts are referenced from newspapers. Look back in the Wikipedia article's history to mid-2006. I'm not saying who copied who back then, but some of the text is a bit suspicious.

Finally, the content should be encyclopaedic. Wikipedia is not meant to be a store of every piece of information relating to a subject.

This isn't meant to be a rebuke, more of a summary of guidance notes.--ML5 (talk) 14:29, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it's fair to point out that coatbridge has amongst the lowest levels of irish born people in scotland. However I a) think this runs the risk of missing the point about the town today - coatbridge today is 60-70% populated by the descendants of 2nd-5th generation irish immigrants who have a strong sense of their own identity and b) it actually makes the irish dimension about coatbridge all the more remarkable. The st. pat's festival and the thriving irish cultural scene that has sprung up the last 10 years are the best examples of the irish links being far from historical. My own experience of coatbridge is that 'little ireland' is a tag applied to coatbridge and that it is a valid term although this might not be everyone elses view. I would also say that while the other big cities you rightly mention have large irish-descendent populations i odn;t think the numbers come anywhere near the modern day percentages in Coatbridge (although I could be wrong on the south Boston part of Boston). I think this is why Coatbridge is a bit out of the ordinary and merits the irish angle being highlighted.

With regard to the circluar referencing it's difficult to figure whether the chicken or egg came first on that one. There is a general acceptance there are lots of naughty journos out there who will copy and paste whatever is on wikiepedia at any given time but I think there are lots of other references about the irish angle to make the term stand up on it's own.

I've revisited the edits I made a week ago on the page, which in some respects over emphasized the irish angle in terms of the whole article and in other ways weren't encyclopedic, and've put up something which probably balances at least a bit better. I've only being doing stuff on wikipedia for week or so and and am still picking up how things work and am reliant upon everyone else to point out where I have gone wrong. This is my excuse and i'm sticking to it. Cheers.

 Jayhoolihan (talk) 23:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Coatbridge's connection to Ireland - Update

I'm still unhappy about how this article has recently overstated the modern-day links between Coatbridge and Ireland. Newspapers, TV and "common knowledge" are often used to justify the links, without anyone trying to find evidence. The past links are well known, with many sources to back them up, but are they really notable? There could be many villages or towns in the West of Scotland that could claim very high levels of Irish immigration, not forgetting Glasgow itself. With the exception of post-WWII English and Asian immigrants, I could believe almost everyone in the West of Scotland has some Irish heritage.

One way of finding out how people regard their roots is through their view of their own ethnicity (this is different from nationality). This was asked in the 2001 Census. A copy of the form can be viewed here: http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files/indform.pdf. Basically, (white) people were asked "What is your ethnic group?", with the following tick-box choices:
[ ] Scottish
[ ] Other British
[ ] Irish
[ ] Any other White background

The General Register Office doesn't publish these results, but they're not secret. Ask them a general question and they'll give you a general answer. So, that's what I did (at http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/contacts/contact-form.html).

From: ML5
Sent: 05 February 2009 16:42
To: GROS Customer
Subject: Ethnicity and religion in Coatbridge

I've read on the internet that up to 80% of the population of Coatbridge consider
themselves to be of Irish decent and most are Catholic. As Coatbridge is a town
large enough for disclosure of this information not to identify people, can I see
the statistics?

Thanks.

   From: xyz@gro-scotland.gsi.gov.uk
   Sent: 06 February 2009 08:30
   To: abc
   Subject: RE: Ethnicity and religion in Coatbridge

   ML5,

   The population of Coatbridge at the 2001 Census was 41,170 of which 21,507 gave
   their current religion as Roman Catholic. We have no information regarding your
   question on Irish decent. However 1.4% of the population of Coatbridge regarded
   themselves as being White Irish.

   Regards

   xyz

As original research is a Wikipedia no-no, I'm not going to quote these figures on the article.

There's two points here:
(1) 21,507 out of 41,170 is 52%. This is a huge percentage to be Catholic. I could believe that no other town or city in Scotland, even on mainland UK, comes close.
(2) 1.4% consider their ethnic background as "White Irish". I've lived in Coatbridge for a long time and that figure seems right. The GRO publishes a figure of 0.32% for nationals of the Republic of Ireland. So, around 1% of Coatbridge (who aren't Irish nationals) think of themselves to be ethnically Irish, not Scottish.

So, just because your pal's wee sister is forever attending feiseanna and some bloke across the road from your granny's house drapes a tricolour out of his bedroom window every mid-July, doesn't mean Coatbridge is dominated by a sense of Irishness.

I think we need to revert some parts of the article; I may need help.--ML5 (talk) 16:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay there is an aspect of two ants arguing over a dungheap here, but here goes anyway.

I kind of suspect (although I hope not) the analysis you’re trying to present comes from the same line of argument that anyone in Scotland saying they’re from an Irish catholic background or expressing any bit of their Irish heritage dislikes Scotland and wishes they were Irish. I think you need to be aware that people from Irish catholic backgrounds in Coatbridge are Scottish. The 20’000 who will be celebrating this years St. Pat’s festival are Scottish – you only need to ask them what they are. However they are the descendants of Irish catholic immigrants who display these roots in marked contrast to other places in Scotland. This is expressed in c-brig today by some taking the kids to Irish dance classes, others go to Parkhead or to chapel, some attend Irish language classes or send their weans to catholic schools, some just go along once a year to the St. pat’s day festival. The fact that 52% didn’t tick the ethnically Irish box on the 2001 census doesn’t change this. Following your logic we could argue that because 0.25% of people in Coatbridge attend Celtic games Celtic therefore don't have much of a following in the town.

There are many places that could claim relatively high levels Irish immigration in the past like Gorbals, Govanhill, Clydebank, Port Glasgow, Royston etc. Coatbridge is different because Irish catholic descendants today make up the majority in the town and within the context of Scottish society Coatbridge has, or is perceived to have, a unique Irish/catholic identity. If the modern day Irish aspects of Coatbridge don’t merit being seriously notable then I would suggest on this criteria of notability then C-brig will a very brief entry on wikipedia. Are you also suggesting no one should mention prominently in the Larkhall article what Larkhall is well-known for? Regardless of whether we like it or not an article should refelct what's going on.

Other points; references from the Scotsman and Herald to evidence that Coatbridge is called ‘little Ireland’ are, given the context of the usage and quote, reasonable to show the term is in use outwith the bounds of pubs/bus stops. An RTE documentary was used to evidence that the president of Ireland stated Coatbridge was ‘the heart of Ireland in Scotland’ which again is reasonable. There are additional supporting academic references which could be pulled in to support the Irish angle but which would necessitate re-jigging some bits of the article. The only questionable reference is the RTE reference estimating 60% plus of c/bridge have RC backgrounds. The figures you obtained say 52% stated they were catholic in 2001. This figure doesn’t account ‘athiests’ who would consider themselves to be from catholic backgrounds and have strong Irish links.

Looking back at the history of the Coatbridge article the ‘little Ireland’ term was actually in the article previously. I see you yourself removed the term and dismissed Irish catholic links as ‘largely historical’. Are you still of the view that analysis was a balanced and fair one? My view is this kind of minimsation comes from the same dubious cul-de-sac that produced a book in the 80’s called ‘Coatbridge – three centuries of change‘ that didn’t once refer to Irish immigration into Coatbridge, never mentioned the word irish (!) and mentioned the word ‘catholic’ once.

In terms of changes my view is the whole article needs a lot of work full stop and will try to chip away at some of the sections like landamrks, economy and notable people which are not good. However as to the Irish aspects of c-brig I think the article is much improved and more accurately describes c-brig. For extra clarity I will though look to add in more academic references. In terms of any possible changes (as there si always room for improvement) I would think it fair to bring the 52% figure into the demographic section (doesn't sound like orginal research if carried out by census office) and move the Irish paragraph in the history section to the demographics section. The cultural character of Coatbridge paragraph would be better titled something along the lines of the Irish in Coatbridge and have the bit about current writers/the film festival and the Coatbridge accent respectively split off into separate cultural and accent sections. If the ‘little Ireland’ term in particular causes so much anguish for you it could be changed to Coatbridge is ‘uniquely populated largely by people of Irish descent’ which can be referenced from an academic source. Given the axe you appear to be grinding I suspect nothing less than the eradication of almost any refercne to ireland would make you happy a chara. Cheers. Jayhoolihan (talk) 15:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The only axe I'm trying to grind is the one about articles being notable and verifiable. If references could be found showing Coatbridge has significantly higher rates ("in marked contrast") of kids learning Irish dance, supporting Celtic, learning Gaelic or attending church (I've almost helped with this one), then Irish culture is indeed alive, well and notable in Coatbridge. Anecdotally, I could provide quite a few similar examples to the two I've already given, but these wouldn't count. Annoyingly, many books/newspaper/TV articles seem to fall into this trap: it's lazy, and likely to get things wrong. As an example of this, I was very surprised at the 1.4% answer to the ethnicity question - I would have guessed ten times that.--ML5 (talk) 22:13, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Over the next week I'll do a few redrafts on the page with some alterations to the stuff we've been talking about and then we can perhaps resume this conversation. Cheers Jayhoolihan (talk) 21:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Great! That's the Wikipedia way! Although you might (wrongly) suspect an agenda/background on my part, I'm just trying to be as neutral as possible. For your redraft, I'll concede that "Little Ireland" is sometimes (rightly or wrongly) used as a metaphor for Coatbridge, not a nickname - although, Buckfast City is more common (I'd leave that one out).--ML5 (talk) 23:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that ML5, hopefully by next weekend this bit of the article will be sorted. Looking at other town articles has helped me get a much better idea of the criteria and standards required. Jayhoolihan (talk) 23:34, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I am an Englishman and previous inhabitant of Coatbridge. I think there is a very strong sense of Irishness in Coatbridge. I was born in an northern English town, often labelled as Little Ireland and also dominated 2-5th generation Irish (due to a similar mining heritage). The contrasts between my home town and Coatbridge (where I lived from 2002-2007) where quite stark. While my home-town has largerly drifted away from it's Irish heritage, Coatbridge seems to positively embrace it. From their St Patrick Day festivities, right through to the regualr Orange marches. It felt much more Irish then any other parts of the west of Scotland that I am familiar with. Of course the whole Irish heritage thing is widespread in Ayrshire & Strathclyde. Not sure if that adds anything to the debate, but i thought a 3rd slightly different perspective might be useful in shaping the section. The fact that a Coatbridge Irish page exists is an indication of how Irish the town is. It's all rather difficult to quantify without it coming across as original research.--Footix2 (talk) 12:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Notable people/Cultural section

I've taken the liberty of redrafting and rearranging the cultural section. I'm not sure about how well it works from an aesthetic point of view. If people don't think it works it could be taken back to the original. It makes me wonder though about some of those included on the list of notable people - Bob Crampsey seems a bit tenuous. I don't think Gerry Creaney and Chris Iwelumo are noteworthy enough. Perhaps John Reid and Helen Liddell could be rolled together?

If no one objects I'll amend the list and also remove Donovan, Dillon etc who are now mentioned elsewhere in the main article. Cheers. Jayhoolihan (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Future improvements

I'm suggesting the following areas for further improving the article:

Education – needs some discussion about new built schools.

History – 20 & 21st century narrative needs expanded - perhaps monklandsgate should come out of governance sectionn and go here. Generally photos for history section could be rejigged and improved on.

Local government – section is massive and needs edited down.

Demography – section seems messy and in need of re-editing.

Sports – section seems bitty and needs redone. Photo of cricket ground might be good.

Landmarks – this section needs reworked with at least one additional photo. Section may be too large in need of being edited down; albiet with creation of a new article on local landmarks allowing fuller discussion etc

Economy – Needs some expansion, perhaps with some discussion of unemployment figures in town.

References – need properly wikified.

I also think a few new sections are needed:

Religion needs it‘s own separate section and also need a brief media subsection within culture section with description of past newspapers and of current local "publication".

Jayhoolihan (talk) 21:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Why not also have a look at some of the articles in Category:FA-Class UK geography articles. Having got to GA-level you can compare Coatbridge against some of these articles and see what is under-represented in Coatbridge. Pyrotec (talk) 13:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Coatdyke in Coatbridge? Really?

I have major issues with firstly Coatdyke redirecting to Coatbridge and also the claim that it is wholly part of Coatbridge.

Part of Airdrie and Shotts UK and Scottish Parliamentary constituencies

Part of North Lanarkshire Council's Airdrie Central Ward (8).

Coatdyke Railway Station is in Airdrie as has ML6 postcode - as does a lot of businesses in Coatdyke, e.g. Guidis

The "Airdrie" signs start at what is traditionally thought of as Coatdyke (just before Guidis building - the car park is in Coatbridge)

The Boundary Commission for Scotland state it is in Airdrie.

Interestingly, The Gazeteer of Scotland 1882 states: "Monkland (New)...The parish contains Airdrie town...part of Coatdyke town" and "Monkland (Old)...containing Coatbridge...and parts of Calderbank, Coatdyke and Tollcross towns".

I am aware of the redirect talking about the fountains of the Burgh of Coatbridge but I am sure the above would assume that Coatdyke is a village/town/whatever straddling between Airdrie and Coatbridge. The redirect mentions that the fountains of the Burgh of Coatbridge would point to Coatdyke being absorbed into the said Burgh. However, Baillieston was formerly part of the Monklands...which us not even mentioned on Wikipedia's Monklands or Baillieston pages. What I am getting at is that things change. The Gazeteer mentions Coatdyke was basically split between the two towns as they encroached on each other.

I don't suggest for a minute that Coatdyke should alternatively redirect to Airdrie but the current situation is not factually correct. I don't propose to do anything at the moment but feel the discussion should continue to provide an agreeable solution. My own view is a separate article for Coatdyke with reference to its history (I am sure there will be books and articles out there) and how it is now absorbed by Airdrie and Coatbridge.

Thanks for reading. Panthro (talk) 14:41, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Growing up in Coatbridge I always figured Coatdyke spanned both towns, the Coatbridge half up until the burn that marks the Coatbridge/Airdrie boundary and where the road changes from Main Street to Deedes Street.

Although Coatdyke train station has an ML6 postcode I don't think that can be taken as a rule that it's located in Airdrie - it's only where the mail for that area gets delivered. I actually looked into that a while ago and Coatdyke rail station is in Coatbridge according to Ordance Survey.

But an area name such as Coatdyke surely isn't based on the physical boundaries of Ordnance Survey or the Boundary Commission - an area name like Coatdyke is a community given name to an area and is surely defined by the people who use it. That's why I'd say Coatdyke spans both towns, for example when referring to a shop that is in Coatbridge just on one side of the border and a shop that is in Airdire just over the other side we'd say both shops are in Coatdyke.

So as to where Coatdyke should redirect to? Why does it need to redirect?

Baron Olivers (talk) 15:23, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Coatbridge/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

for Coatbridge to reach (or try to go for) B status, i suggest the following things: extend the introduction, history, landmarks sections add info in the economy, sport and transport sections remove the list of schools and intregrate them into the larger paragraph with a re-write add references Kilnburn (talk) 13:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 13:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 11:57, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120307182523/http://www.scrol.gov.uk/scrol/browser/profile.jsp?profile=Employment&mainLevel=Locality&mainText=Coatbridge&mainTextExplicitMatch=false&compLevel=CountryProfile&compText=&compTextExplicitMatch=null to http://www.scrol.gov.uk/scrol/browser/profile.jsp?profile=Employment&mainLevel=Locality&mainText=Coatbridge&mainTextExplicitMatch=false&compLevel=CountryProfile&compText=&compTextExplicitMatch=null
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120307182707/http://www.scrol.gov.uk/scrol/browser/profile.jsp?profile=Employment&mainLevel=CouncilArea&mainArea=North+Lanarkshire&mainText=&mainTextExplicitMatch=false&compLevel=CountryProfile&compText=&compTextExplicitMatch=null to http://www.scrol.gov.uk/scrol/browser/profile.jsp?profile=Employment&mainLevel=CouncilArea&mainArea=North+Lanarkshire&mainText=&mainTextExplicitMatch=false&compLevel=CountryProfile&compText=&compTextExplicitMatch=null
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120307182748/http://www.scrol.gov.uk/scrol/browser/profile.jsp?profile=Household&mainLevel=Locality&mainText=Coatbridge&mainTextExplicitMatch=false&compLevel=CountryProfile&compText=&compTextExplicitMatch=null to http://www.scrol.gov.uk/scrol/browser/profile.jsp?profile=Household&mainLevel=Locality&mainText=Coatbridge&mainTextExplicitMatch=false&compLevel=CountryProfile&compText=&compTextExplicitMatch=null

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External links modified

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External links modified

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I have just modified 2 external links on Coatbridge. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110309015004/http://www.merryston.co.uk/ to http://www.merryston.co.uk/

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• St Ambrose High School.webp

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:52, 14 October 2022 (UTC)