Talk:Chuckwagon racing

Animal Welfare section

As per WP:Compromise, I have called for a debate in this category. If a civil compromise cannot be reached, an arbitration session will be requested, as per WP:Arbitration which can and has resulted in all information in the section being removed from the page. Any reverts or edits to the category in question will be reverted and recorded as vandalism until the completion of this debate and until a compromise has been reached. Gsgeek540 (talk) 18:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I think due to the nature of the sport, unless all accidents are listed, no accidents are listed UNLESS they end result was a major change in the sport. Proposed example to be listed: In 1986, Wilf Desjarlais cut off Ed Alstott, causing a lead horse to get his hoof in the stove rack and crashing his wagon into Grant Preece and Joe King. The end result was the wagon was completely redesigned with the stove rack inside the wagon. Proposed example to NOT be listed: In 1999, Bill McEwan's wagon was clipped by Larry McEwan, causing Bill's Wagon to catopolt him out and have the trailing wagon, Ron David, crash into the down wagon. Bill McEwan and 4 horses was killed, however, no major changes were made to the sport.Gsgeek540 (talk) 19:26, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

A couple thoughts. First, Arbitration is a non-starter, as they will not rule on content disputes, so you'd just waste your time by threatening to go down that route. Plus, you would have to show other steps in the dispute resolution process have failed. Now, on the specific point, I agree that including last night's accident is a rather obvious case of WP:UNDUE, and I agree with your general argument. The 1986 crash would be a definite point for inclusion (and I did put that one into the main Calgary Stampede article as well). But the views of the VHS are also notable here, so one could justify a line like "The Vancouver Humane Society has argued against the sport, claiming comments following a crash in 2012 that killed three horses". In that sense, the recent accident is mentioned, but only as an example of what a notable critic is claiming. A list of all accidents, not so useful. Resolute 00:09, 14 July 2012 (UTC

The thing though is VHS, specifically Fricker, has been vocal about this since 07 and they continue their fight even today. We can still list VHS without having to provide an example of specific incidents. Afterall, even if it was a rainbows and unicorns sport where everything is perfect and no one gets hurt, they would still have those views. Their view has always been "animals shouldn't be used for sport/entertainment". Now that there has been an accident, it is just feeding their fire. This accident hasn't changed their view at all. It's still the same. That's why, unless something significantly happens as a result of this accident, I don't see any realistic reason this accident needs to be listed. It is the same as several others and nothing has changed VHS or CHS views. It is still "animals shouldn't be used for sport/entertainment"

As for your comments on not using arbitration, I have had success a few times going down that path.

WHOA! Where was the original dispute? Looks to me like we ultimately added a sentence to the article, issue settled. The standard is WP:NPOV which usually is implemented to add a fair representation of BOTH (or all) points of view. This appears to exist. If someone wanted to create an article titled List of chuckwagon racing fatalities, that could work too. Montanabw^(talk) 18:35, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I think it would open a can of worms. With 3 Canadian associations, plus ponies, plus mini's, plus American wagons, it would be never ending. Where do you draw the line? On top of that, it is hard to source most of these horse deaths because it appears the Calgary Stampede is the only stop that gets major attention to an accident. If I'm not mistaken, there was an accident on the WPCA circuit in Grande Prairie leading to horse deaths with no media coverage or mention what so ever. If someone wants that challenge, please do so but I've been around Wagons for 15 years and I can think of dozens and dozens of accidents that have happened on tour that have gone virtually unnoticed. Gsgeek540 (talk) 19:17, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, in response to my latest revert on the page to people deaths, only calgary stampede stats are listed on there. What about Richard Cosgrave (Kamloops 1993)? What about George Normand (Ponoka 1994)? What about Randy Evans (Cheyenne 1986)? People don't understand that there is more to wagon racing then the Calgary Stampede. Human deaths were unsourced and removed none the less but i think if we can get them sourced, they should be readded in their own category; not animal welfare.Gsgeek540 (talk) 19:18, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

The article in total is too-focused on the Calgary Stampede, but that is largely my fault as the creator. If you can expand and broaden it, that would be most useful. Also, I agree with your comment on opening a can of worms. Honestly, I'd see a list of chuckwagon fatalities to be about as useful as List of fatalities on Ontario Highway 401. Resolute 19:37, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd love to as well but the problem as I indicated is there is virtually no media attention on any other association, and therefore, we'd be unable to cite and sources we use for information. Of course i could get word of mouth of people on the tours but that only goes so far on wikipedia. And that's not your fault that it's mostly CS. Don't blame yourself. People think chuckwagon racing, they think calgary stampede. They don't think ponoka or cheyenne or the world or canadian tours which is such a shame. You think of Ponoka stampede and the sutherland dash for cash in 2011 and how kelly nipped mark at the wire by 1 100th of a second. No media attention. What has been brought to the table here is great.Gsgeek540 (talk) 21:02, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

We are governed by WP:V, so what's not reported is pretty difficult to include on wikipedia. As for accidents and fatalities, we also need to look at WP:UNDUE, for example, there is a summary of various problem issues in articles like Thoroughbred, but they don't dominate the article. My point is that we don't need big laundry list or accidents and injuries here, it's undue weight. Similarly, see Charreada, which is even more controversial than Chuckwagon racing, but there is not enough data beyond anecdotal reports, but what's there is a carefully crafted good faith compromise between editors to keep NPOV. Montanabw^(talk) 17:43, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I am quite disgusted that this user took initiative to edit the page to how they want it while a debate is going on. I've been editing on Wikipedia since 2007. Never have I encountered such a selfish user. Here we have...well had... a civil discussion where a lot of valid and critical points are being discussed and what does this user do? Make excuses on why some points don't work and furthermore, edits with own agenda. I didn't know that Wikipedia was all about you. I didn't know that you had the power to ignore all discussions on an article and follow your own agenda. As someone whose family has been involved in chuckwagon racing since the 70s, I can speak for them saying that they are disturbed that even basic stats and facts of the racing associations are not mentioned. We understand that wagon racing was created at the stampede and the biggest show but there is more to wagon racing then the stampede and this user should be ashamed Gsgeek540 (talk) 20:18, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't care what section people deaths are posted in. I do care, however, that the facts are actually CORRECT and SOURCED! First of all, Chuckwagon racing does not only occur at the Calgary Stampede. The 36 drivers that compete at the stampede complete on 2 of 3 racing circuits. What about their deaths? The World Assocaition lost George Normand in 1994 and Richard Cosgrave in 1993 (who the aggregate award at Calgary is named after). Why are they chopped liver? The stats that I have are ATLEAST 2 outriders and ATLEAST 3 drivers have died wagon racing from '86-present. The 1 and 1 are from the stampede only. This has been mentioned in the discussion but this user obviously has an agenda of their own and continues to neglect the discussion happening here and continues to edit likewise. The creator of the page has even come into the discussion saying that they based this page around the Calgary Stampede and that was wrong and has acknowledged the fact that there are Thoroughbred racing associations in Canada, 2 of which race at the stampede.Gsgeek540 (talk) 20:33, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Whoa again. What happened to WP:AGF? First off, I made an edit in good faith, that I thought would fix your objections to the heading title and restore sourced material. Second, if you have Verifiable material on the other people or races other than CS, then add it - I'm not stopping you. I've just had an objection to a laundry list detailing every incident. I have NO agenda, though your emotional response clearly suggests you apparently do - And, frankly, if we must, I have been on wikipedia longer than you have, and if you think my edit was "selfish" well, either you haven't been editing much, or that was an ad hominem attack on your part trying to threaten me. And your above comment about your deep, longstanding involvement with chuckwagon racing proves that you have a POV to push and possibly, if you cannot separate your emotions from this article, you may have a WP:COI; I have no agenda other than to work for the improvement of wikipedia articles; to that end, I actually have had many disputes with the animal rights crowd trying to tone down some of the material they wish to add, as well as working with promoters of various sports (such as the previously mentioned Charreada article) to help them understand that NPOV doesn't mean you whitewash problems, you balance the story and teach the controversy. Now, I recommend that you go find sources for the material you want to add and put your energy more into the necessary expansion of this article beyond CS and less into outrage that accidents are reported. Montanabw^(talk) 19:05, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

WHOA. What is going on here? NO edits to this talk page in three years, then all this? First, Gsgeek--you start off in the entire wrong tone and vein with "WP:Arbitration which can and has resulted in all information in the section being removed from the page. Any reverts or edits to the category in question will be reverted and recorded as vandalism until the completion of this debate and until a compromise has been reached." You don't get things done by starting off with threats, claiming normal edits are vandalism etc. Especially not with editors who well know wiki policies and have been here for years. You need to totally rethink your approach. I do agree the article is too focused on the Calgary Stampede. It almost sounds like that's the only place of note these races occur. It needs broader scope. As for horse deaths, yea that's notable when 50+ die in such a short span of time and yes, three in one year is notable. PumpkinSky talk 19:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• Bzzt. Gsgeek540, you've so gotten this thread off on the wrong foot. Your opening post declares an intent to revert any edits as vandalism. Really? This is not vandalism, although you labeled it as 'possibly' such and suggest admin intervention ;) See VANDAL for what vandalism actually is. See wp:OWN for one of the mistakes you've made. BTW, that's an essay you cited as a rationale. Just Fred's opinion. You claim to have been editing wp for five years, but would seem to have made only about a hundred edits a year. I and some of the others here about often do that many a day. Seems to me you've a VHS agenda here, and while I'm not unsympathetic to the issue of animal rights, I'm also inclined to take a dim view of such POV editing. Oh, I skipped the hollow arbitration threat you made. Silly of me (I was giggling a bit). So, back three steps up and just forget about the vandalism rationale and the idea that your having started a talk page thread gives you any right to lock down the article. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 20:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Agree with PS and teh Rabbit here. Best to dial it back a few notches Gsgeek540. Chedzilla (talk) 20:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

All I have done with the opening remarks is take an opening line i have seen DOZENS of users use to open a debate. I have seen it work several times and have committed to using it. As for how long people have been on here and who's edited what, time is frankly just a number and how many edits someone has is like wise. Just because you have 100,000 doesn't mean you know everything about every topic. I have been invovled in this sport since 2006 and my family has been involved over 3 generations in this sport since the 70's. You've had disputes with animal rights groups? Have you had them tour your barn of 30 racing horses? Have a group of 25 of them argue, yelling, screaming in your face, and not as a mob i mean within an inch from your face, on how you are a disgrace to society because you are "abusing" animals? You basically are saying that just because I am not "as senior" as you, I have no justification to add information that I have based off of my family history and knowledge of the sport, although it is true and can source as being true. However, I will not add potentially controversial content without a consensus. I have a VHS agenda....yet I am involved in wagon racing? Sorry what??? Horses die. Whoopdidoo! People die! If you are going to name some people, why not list all? Horses are animals. It is much more common for them to die them people. I have said from day 1 the only horse accidents that should be listed are those with major results (ie. 1986 and 2007). All people accidents (chapin, glass, mcewan, normand, cosgrave, evans, jackson) were all freak accidents Gsgeek540 (talk) 20:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

RE "All I have done with the opening remarks is take an opening line i have seen DOZENS of users use to open a debate". Got diffs? It's not just that. Your whole attitude is wrong. Get a clue kid. PumpkinSky talk 20:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• I may have mis-read your POV here, but your attitude is inappropriate; un-commit to the poor "opening line". That's where this all went wrong. Things work here when you take a positive approach. Experienced editors know how things work around here. You should listen more ;) Br'er Rabbit (talk) 21:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Again, as i indicated, i have taken that opening from several talk pages from several users. If i'm wrong, i will take responsibility and applogize to users offended individually in the near future. Obviously the information i was given was incorrect and i will remain accountable for my actions. But until that time, i have a bus to drive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gsgeek540 (talk • contribs) 21:18, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

And as I said, where're the diffs for those supposed other pages you copied that from? ANd it seems this isn't the time you've had issues with other users, towit: User_talk:Gsgeek540#CGY. PumpkinSky talk 21:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely ive had issues with other users. I called a user out for not citing his sources and sockpuppeted a response calling him out.. I actually have a pair and am man enough to not beat around the bush and admit that i have had issues. Why is this debate occuring on a talk page for an article? Why not through an administrator or my talk page? If i'm in the wrong, like I said, i will admit my faults and carry on with life but if you think im going to be intimidated and answer to a user, no matter how many posts or years of experience he has, your dreaming. I have no further comment to anything but the articleGsgeek540 (talk) 22:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Really? You know that there are several admins on this page? Someone who served on the ArbCom? Someone with a bunch of sockpuppets? (that would be me;). I think you're a low-grade troll that likes to poke people with sticks. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 22:26, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Whatever you feel about them, there is no need to poke back. It won't lead to productive discussion. Now, as to what started this flare up, I honestly don't see why you reacted the way tou did, Gsgeek. Montanabw's edit was very minor, and a good faith attempt at responding to your comments. I don't think your reaction was proportionate to what happened. However, I also think that combining human and animal incidents isn't the best way forward. The animal welfare issue is the key concern facing the sport, and that justifies a section unto itself. But it would be beneficial to note the risks to human riders in the article, and if you do have sources that go beyond the Stampede, that would be of considerable help. Resolute 22:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No you know what, let them have their precious page. Resolute, I have a bunch of sources that i'd be happy to post but the senior users have spoken and don't want me to have anything to do with this page so let it be what it is. I have a life living on the chuckwagon circuit, years of competing on the chuckwagon circuit and 3 generations of wagon racing in my family to offer to this page. If they can offer up better information, facts and insite to the sport, then let them.Gsgeek540 (talk) 00:02, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

No one said you can't edit here, just that you need to change your attitude and approach. You've been asked for and you've alluded to info/sources, but repeatedly refuse to cough them up. That does not bode well. And according to your user page you're barely 22, so just how many "years" of chuck racing can you have?PumpkinSky talk 00:21, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm lets see...22 years following my entire family (uncle, cousin, great uncle), Working in the barns since i was knee high to a duck so maybe 3 or 4 years old? Taking horses out for morning workouts since i was...oh boy maybe 7 or 8?? Scouting and breaking horses before and after every season. Being sanctioned to race since I was 15?? So 22 years. Could never make it full time because live in the city but would if i could. But yet again, age is just a number. And for the record, this whole debate got ugly because of me asking for sources about the 1 outrider and 1 wagon driver have died since the article those facts were originally posted with say nothing of the kind. I'm not doing another users homework.Gsgeek540 (talk) 00:46, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

and i quote from 4 days ago "Human deaths were unsourced and removed none the less" Gsgeek540 (talk) 19:18, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, doing work when you can walk counts too, of course, and of course, this is everyone's fault but your own. How myopic of you. Grow up. For the 4th time, where are all those sources you claim you have? PumpkinSky talk 00:51, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

And again i quote from earlier this afternoon "If i'm wrong, i will take responsibility and applogize to users offended individually in the near future. Obviously the information i was given was incorrect and i will remain accountable for my actions." So please indicate where I am not blaming myself? I haven't made changes to the article so what do i have to source? All i have done is suggest potential changes to page and correct user mistakes via talk page. Of course i could add the correct and additional information to the page but that's my right and I choose not to exercise it. It sounds like you folks have a good grasp of how chuckwagon racing actually works. Because you know, you have been involved in it for basically your whole life. Gsgeek540 (talk) 00:59, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Prove you're an expert. I think you're not. You're just hot air. All bluff no action. Br'er is right, you're just a troll who likes poking people and who doesn't have a clue how wiki works. PumpkinSky talk 01:09, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

When did i claim to be an expert? :S I am far from! You want an expert, contact Billy Melville. I just know how to research. http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/calgary_stampede/ theres the missing source on the page. http://www.albertasportshalloffame.com/component/zoo/item/normand-george That would be another appropriate 1 Gsgeek540 (talk) 01:20, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1iNlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZYgNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2122,1942675&dq=randy+evans+chuckwagon&hl=en and another 1.. so 2 outriders and 2 drivers for the time period indicated on article..

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar/access/512822661.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Aug+09%2C+1993&author=&pub=The+Spectator&desc=Racer+killed+as+family+looks+on+%27Turning+too+damn+fast%27+father+says&pqatl=google and 3 drivers and 2 outriders as i have claimed from day 1...Gsgeek540 (talk) 01:30, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• Gsgeek540, that's great that you're finding sources - it's what this site is all about. Perhaps you're feeling a bit "ganged up on" right now, and that's understandable - but the bottom line is that you NEED sources to put information into an article. I think it's wonderful that you have a background in this topic, and it's fantastic that you're so passionate about all this. TALK to these people here, nobody wants to chase you off or anything - they're just asking you to justify your edits. Relax, think about what you want to have the article say - discuss it with the people who are familiar with the article and procedures on Wikipedia. Don't be confrontational, we/they will work with you. k? Chedzilla (talk) 05:47, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I just feel that there is a double standard. 3 days ago before this all got out of hand, i asked for a source to be provided for the "1 outrider death and 1 wagon driver death" statement. I get called out for not providing a source...I didn't add that fact so why should I have to provide a source for something i didn't even post? Yes of course i know the answer but it seems wrong and this all got out of hand. I wish to have no more involvement with this page. As has been implied by a couple users here, my sourced facts are invalid and my experience on the circuit is nothing because i'm too "young" and because i didn't actually race until i was 15. So let it be. I can direct my passion for the sport somewhere that is thankful for what i have to bring to the table.Gsgeek540 (talk) 07:53, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Gsgeek, you clearly have a strong emotional attachment to the article, and I realize that personally dealing with animal rights people can be harrowing (please, watchlist rodeo and help me out there). But I have never said you could not add material to this article, in fact, I believe that both Resolute and I have urged you to find reliable sources so that we can improve it. You have responded with threats and accusations of vandalism where none exist. However, the animal welfare issue is one that has to be addressed head-on and in an NPOV fashion, just as when I work on various horse breed articles, such as the FA Appaloosa, we discuss genetic diseases and other controversies, such as drug use, even though the breed registries would prefer to sweep them under the carpet. As I have previously stated, you need to stop being outraged and provide material - links are a start, and your thoughts on content are well-taken. To address the concerns, above, I have made a couple small edits to the existing material; I corrected some statistics, and re-sourced the human fatalities with a better source. (There was a mention of outriders in one of the cited article, but that material appears to have now been removed from the article, which was probably because it was inaccurate -- there have been five fatalities, not two) Montanabw^(talk) 16:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)