Talk:Carl Schurz

==Untitled==kitten

Untitled

You might also mention Carl Schurz High School in Chicago, a memorial school named for him. It was built in 1906.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Preschooler.at.heart (talk • contribs)

==True Americanism date?==taco Can we verify the assertion that "The True Americanism" was delivered in 1859? I'm finding a reference (By Carl Schurz. From "Modern Eloquence." Vol. IX, p. 1025. Copyright. 1900, by The University Society.) which puts the date as 1896, which makes more sense historically.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Trschroeder (talk • contribs)

Added citation. Hal Jespersen 16:01, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Schurz gave two speeches entitled "True Americanism." The first, delivered in Faneuil Hall, Boston, April 18, 1859, concerned nativism. This is the one referred to in the Politics in the US section. The second, delivered in New York City at a meeting of the Chamber of Commerce of the State of New York, January 2, 1896, was an anti-imperialist speech. This is the one from which the extended quote derives. I have corrected the citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.76.132.80 (talk) 19:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Link to Revolution of 1848

Should the link to the Revolution of 1848 direct readers to the Revolutions of 1848 in the German states? -- VGF11 00:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes. He participated in the German Revolution but immigrated to the US after its failure... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.35.20.90 (talk) 18:24, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Indian Affairs

Would the author or anyone else care to source some of the POV inflammatory statements in this section? I'm tempted to remove such bits the "avoidable" war etc... Sluggy 11:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I checked the linked articles in the four bullets--none discussed Schurz or the Office of Indian Affairs. I suspect that good sources could be found for the unconscionable behavior of the BIA and its precursor agencies, so I would welcome any edits that specifically address Schurz's administration of the agency or of its activities during his tenure. His efforts in making Civil Service more professional should be cited, too.--Hjal 08:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Did Germany exist in 1830?

"Schurz was born in Liblar (now part of Erftstadt), Germany on March 2, 1829", I think Kingdom of Prussia is more likely.

The Kingdom of Prussia was a member of the German Confederation and the German Coustoms Union 78.42.252.102 (talk) 13:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

and it was a member of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (which was the official full name of that entity from 1500s to it dissolution in the early 1800s 78.42.252.102 (talk) 13:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Religion

I was the one who listed Society for Ethical Culture as Schurz's religion, which I believe I retrieved from the Trefousse biography, though I don't have it in front of me to double check. I agree there should be a citation there. Perhaps an obituary would be a source of information as well? I looked into Google Books and p. 296 of the 1998 edition says Felix Adler of the Society delivered the English eulogy at Schurz's funeral with Jacobi taking care of the German one. p. 295 looks like it might have a further clarification, but I am not permitted a page view there which might show definitively that he participated in the Society's activities. Or maybe he was just a friend of Adler, and I am pushing the connection too far, but I think not. A Google using Schurz Society for Ethical Culture didn't turn up any potentials besides Trefousse, for the first 30 hits anyway. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 14:48, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Both Fuess and Trefousse say that he was raised Catholic. Page 295 of Trefousse says of his last days, "A priest attempted to offer the last rites of the Catholic church only to be denied admission by the family - Schurz had long since been friendly with Dr. Felix Adler of the Ethical Culture Society." I could not readily find anything definitive in either work about his religious affiliation, although it may be there. His NY Times obit stated that the funeral would take place at his home, but the clergyman had not yet been selected, suggesting that he wasn't a member of any particular congregation. The obit also mentions his memberships in organizations, but does not mention the Society for Ethical Culture. Given the uncertainty, perhaps its best to leave that information blank. 75.2.209.226 (talk) 17:02, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

And his memoir certainly says much about being raised Catholic. As far as religion in his life, raised Catholic certainly deserves a mention. Perhaps there are other ethical influences that deserve a mention as well. But Trefousse seems too ambiguous to even list Society for Ethical Culture as an influence. Adler and Schurz certainly had similar political interests, and that may have been their only common thread. Trefousse seems to be trying to say something, but it seems he had no verifiable citation either. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 15:05, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

And now I see he is tagged as a Lutheran. That really needs a citation, and I have so requested. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 00:22, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I think there are many indications that he was of the Mumar religion. Including his last days. Here for instance is one. And look up Carpetbagger, somehow the cartoon image is reminiscent of... oh well. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 01:07, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee

There were a pair of edits, one removing a mention of Dee Brown's book in the article, and one removing the book itself from further reading. I think the article strikes the right balance without that sentence, but the book itself I think is is a significant POV on Schurz and should be retained in the further reading, so I put it back in. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 14:37, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

German pronunciation is great, but ...

How is his name pronounced in the States? Zum Beispiel, is it an English or a German zed?
Varlaam (talk) 16:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Blocked quotes

There are currently several blocked quotes in the article. I am not sure of the quotes significance in the article. The article needs to be written in more of a chronological encyclopedia style, in my opinion. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:37, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Article improvements

I am attempting to improve the article and the lede and body to conform with standard Wikipedia policy and other biographical articles. I have added criticism along with positive associations of Carl Schurz. The article needs to get rid of the block quotes. I can put these block quotes in the talk page for any future reference. Schurz really was the man behind the Republican Party bolt in 1872 against Ulysses S. Grant and one of President Grant's severest critics, even though Schurz was a Republican. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:57, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Moved German-American identity and blocked quotes to talk page

The following appears to be original research, not that Carl Schurz's statements have been misquoted or misrepresented. Wikipedia biography articles need to be in paragraph form with appropriate references. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:46, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

German-American identity
Schurz maintained a relationship with the German expatriate community. He addressed a group of German immigrants at the Chicago World's Fair in 1893:

I have said: who does not honor the old fatherland is not worthy of the new, but I say also he is not worthy of the old fatherland who is not one of the most faithful citizens of the new. Noblesse oblige. To be a German now means more than it meant before he belonged to one united nation. He who calls himself a German now must never forget his honorable obligation to his name; he must honor Germany in himself. The German-American can accomplish great things for the development of the great composite nation of the new world, if in his works and deeds he combines and welds the best that is in the German character with the best that is in the American. — Carl Schurz, German Day, June 15, 1893.

"The True Americanism"

What is the rule of honor to be observed by a power so strongly and so advantageously situated as this Republic is? Of course I do not expect it meekly to pocket real insults if they should be offered to it. But, surely, it should not, as our boyish jingoes wish it to do, swagger about among the nations of the world, with a chip on its shoulder, shaking its fist in everybody's face. Of course, it should not tamely submit to real encroachments upon its rights. But, surely, it should not, whenever its own notions of right or interest collide with the notions of others, fall into hysterics and act as if it really feared for its own security and its very independence. As a true gentleman, conscious of his strength and his dignity, it should be slow to take offense. In its dealings with other nations it should have scrupulous regard, not only for their rights, but also for their self-respect. With all its latent resources for war, it should be the great peace power of the world. It should never forget what a proud privilege and what an inestimable blessing it is not to need and not to have big armies or navies to support. It should seek to influence mankind, not by heavy artillery, but by good example and wise counsel. It should see its highest glory, not in battles won, but in wars prevented. It should be so invariably just and fair, so trustworthy, so good tempered, so conciliatory, that other nations would instinctively turn to it as their mutual friend and the natural adjuster of their differences, thus making it the greatest preserver of the world's peace. This is not a mere idealistic fancy. It is the natural position of this great republic among the nations of the earth. It is its noblest vocation, and it will be a glorious day for the United States when the good sense and the self-respect of the American people see in this their "manifest destiny." It all rests upon peace. Is not this peace with honor? There has, of late, been much loose speech about "Americanism." Is not this good Americanism? It is surely today the Americanism of those who love their country most. And I fervently hope that it will be and ever remain the Americanism of our children and our children's children.

— Carl Schurz, "The True Americanism", address delivered in New York City at a meeting of the Chamber of Commerce of the State of New York, January 2, 1896.

Patriotism

The man who in times of popular excitement boldly and unflinchingly resists hot-tempered clamor for an unnecessary war, and thus exposes himself to the opprobrious imputation of a lack of patriotism or of courage, to the end of saving his country from a great calamity, is, as to "loving and faithfully serving his country," at least as good a patriot as the hero of the most daring feat of arms, and a far better one than those who, with an ostentatious pretense of superior patriotism, cry for war before it is needed, especially if then they let others do the fighting.

— Carl Schurz, "About Patriotism", Harper’s Weekly, April 16, 1898.

Schurz expanded on this theme in a speech delivered at the Anti-Imperialistic Conference in Chicago, Illinois, October 17, 1899:

I confidently trust that the American people will prove themselves … too wise not to detect the false pride or the dangerous ambitions or the selfish schemes which so often hide themselves under that deceptive cry of mock patriotism: "Our country, right or wrong!" They will not fail to recognize that our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: "Our country—when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right."

— Carl Schurz, "The Policy of Imperialism", in Speeches, Correspondence
and Political Papers of Carl Schurz, vol. 6 (1913), pp. 119–20..

Length of Article

The length of this article seems to me out of proportion to the importance of its subject. I would suggest that the current lede would serve perfectly well as the main article, and the new lede would only need a few lines. Valetude (talk) 07:47, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't disagree more. At 39,000 bytes the article is perfectly appropriate for an important Civil War and 19th century military and political leader. I have also reverted your deletion of material (that is apparently sourced since there is a footnote immediately after it) that simply puts his views in the proper historical context. It is important to provide this context for readers who lack the knowledge to realize that beliefs that sound backward and racist in a21st Century context were pretty much the norm in the 19th Century. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

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Comment(s)

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It has lots of everything. The quotations may be a bit overdone, but I suppose he was an orator. Maybe there is a project relating to aboriginal Americans he should be in? His stand on women's rights should be scrutinized, although perhaps he wasn't very active in this area: I've read an editorial in Harper's Weekly, a remark about "strong-minded women" in a lecture on Germany, and a talk in a lecture on education on education for women (from the point of view of an "old fogie", as he characterizes it, and the ideas do seem very backward now). He has more interesting ideas on education in his autobiography, particularly the first volume. His autobiography also shows an interest in psychic phenomena which may make an interesting addition here. His lecture career is neglected in this article. Lectures were a big source of ready cash for him through much of his life. He was very controversial in a lot of areas, so it is important to review for accuracy and citations carefully. Everything considered, the B rating seems justified. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 17:24, 1 March 2009 (UTC) 00:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:24, 1 March 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 10:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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