Talk:Calyptorhynchus

Redirect

The redirect from Calyptorhynchinae is not accurate. See page. Dysmorodrepanis 05:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Name of page

The name black cockatoo is not mentioned on the page, so I wonder if the page move to Black Cockatoo was an un-discussed controversial move. Is "black cockatoo" a recognised name for this genus? if so it should be capitalised "black cockatoo" and not "Black Cockatoo", and it would need a page name change to Black cockatoo. Same with a lot of the wikilinks to this page. Is "dark cockatoo" the correct name for this genus? Does this genus have a widely recognised common name? I suggest that the page name is changed back to the formal name, and any subsequent page name changes discussed in the usual way. The Palm Cockatoo is also black. See also Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Snowman (talk) 10:55, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Calyptorhynchus are called the Black Cockatoos. Yes the Palm Cockatoo is black but is never called Palm Black-cockatoo or any such. I will get a reference or two to support the name use for the genus. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

But the capitalisation is wrong for a group of birds. Snowman (talk) 12:09, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, oops. I need to sleep now. Will fix in morning if no-one does in meantime. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

"Palm Cockatoo" can be called the 'Great Black Cockatoo". Snowman (talk) 00:47, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Sources

• Forshaw 1978 (PotW) p. 113 'The 'Black Cockatoos' belong to this genus'
• Christidis & Boles p. 150 'The 'Black-Cockatoo' genus....'
• Cameron p. 6 - also calls it black-cockatoo genus....
• Alan Lendon's Australian Parrots in Field and Aviary (p. 52) has chapter Calyptorhynchus subheaded "Black Cockatoos"

Damn, never noticed the hyphens :P Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:28, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

• Forshaw (2002 - corrected third edition). Parrots of Australia. "The 'black cockatoos' belonging to this genus are ...". This does not imply anything about black cockatoo referring only to one genus. Snowman (talk) 00:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Depends how you interpret single quotation marks really. One could equally argue that they concede there is something suggested by the term specifically for these birds, as the lack of quotation marks might obviously suggest there may be others. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• To me it reads that there are black cockatoos (or what we take for black) that do not belong to the genus. Snowman (talk) 22:59, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sources for Palm Cockatoo being called a black cockatoo

• Parrots of the World; an identification guide. 2006. Forshawe. plate 1 and plate 2 are untitled "BLACK COCKATOOS" (capitals throughout) and includes the Palm Cockatoo. I am very doubtful that "Black cockatoo" is a term that is widely accepted to refer only to the genus Calyptorhynchus.
• Juniper and Parr give an alternative name for the Palm Cockatoo as the Great Black Cockatoo. Snowman (talk) 01:34, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Update (major headache..)

OK, C & B have a hyphen, but then capitalise as "Black-Cockatoo". I had always seen the term with no hyphen, but have found this. What do we do - hyphen or no hyphen? (groan) Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

? A dab page. Snowman (talk) 23:05, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

IOC used no hyphens, so I suggest to go with that. Make all others redirects. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 23:09, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Happy with that, I was amazed as I had never seen hyphens elsewhere. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:10, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

But, IOC does not give common names for genuses. What are IOC using "no hyphens" for? Perhaps various books use hyphens to make it clear that they are not including the Palm Cockatoo. Going of the reported use of hyphens and various capitalisation styles in books "black cockatoo" does not appear to be widely accepted as a name for this page. I think that the scientific name should be used. Snowman (talk) 23:58, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

All because of a hyphen? Snowman, when the term is used, it pretty clearly and unambiguously excludes the Palm Cockatoo and means the genus. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:13, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Juniper and Parr 1998 (page 263) list an alternative name for the "Palm Cockatoo" as the 'Great Black Cockatoo". Snowman (talk) 00:26, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

(sound of head banging on keyboard) ok, but it is not a common common name, many parrots have archaic and multiple names. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:30, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

It is not clear above what capitalisation IOC use, although it is clear they do not use hyphens. Awaiting clarification of usage by IOC and for what. Snowman (talk) 00:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I thought we didn't capitalise then for genus names, and given they don't use hyphens, this is the name it should remain at. We can wait for the others too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:52, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Parrots of the World; an identification guide. 2006. Forshawe. plate 1 and plate 2 are untitled "BLACK COCKATOOS" (capitals throughout) and includes the Palm Cockatoo. Snowman (talk) 01:01, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

<--dedent. IOC uses capitalisation for species, and they do not use hyphens much. The hyphens explanation is given here, and makes a lot of sense to me. They explicitly have choose not to name genera.

As for black cockatoos and the scope of those, my understanding (without actually having much ref's for it) is that the two subfamilies are basically the black and white fellows, but much has changed now that the cockatiel is migrated into one of those subfamilies. Forshaw indicates those names for the two genera, but in single quotes. I do not care to much, as long as it is clear. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 01:31, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure what you a saying, and there are three subfamilies of cockatoos. What is the relevance of your initial comment on IOC, when IOC do not comment on genuses? It would be clear if the article name used the scientific name, so I presume that you do not object to the scientific name being used. Snowman (talk) 01:39, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, User:Casliber has reverted the page name back to the scientific name; see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Birds#Calyptorhynchus on WP:Birds talk page, where the ambiguity of the term "black cockatoo" was also discussed. The remaining issue is the target for the redirects Black cockatoo, Black Cockatoo, and Black-cockatoo which would probably need directing to a dab page, "Cockatoo" (or somewhere else) and not back to Calyptorhynchus. Any views and comments are welcome. Snowman (talk) 13:39, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I have been BOLD and just did it. Seems the most logical solution to me. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 16:08, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for writing clear edit summaries when you were editing this article. Snowman (talk) 00:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

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