Talk:Brussels-South railway station

Brussels is bilingual, either a double title, or in English?

Brussel-Zuid is the Dutch name, and the station deserves a Dutch name just as much as a French name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evilbu (talk • contribs) 10:35, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

And vice versa, a choice has to be made. You can if you wish and for research purposes type in Brussel-Zuid. Not both can be used as it would be utterly confusing, either a double unappropriate name like Gare de Bruxelles-Midi/Brussels-Zuid or this. Captain scarlet 17:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

This is being discussed here... Julien Tuerlinckx 18:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Than rather an English title

Why not keep it simple and name the article "Brussels South railway station" and mention both local names in the introduction? I find this a rather monstrous title. Roofbird 16:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I think this name change is ridiculous, why change the name of what the station is actually called, since when is it Wikipedias policy to make up language? The station name appears on Eurostar litriture, timetables and destination boards as Bruxelles-Midi/Brussels-Zuid. Oxyman (talk) 19:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The official English name as far as the railway operator (NMBS/SNCB) is concerned is Bruxelles-Midi. The official English name as far as the train operator (Eurostar) is concerned is Bruxelles-Midi (or as a compromise in annoucements: Brussel Midi). Please correct the name of the article as Wikipedia is meant to be fact NOT fiction. pebbens (talk) 23:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Why isn't it called Bruxelles-Sud in French? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.146.12.16 (talk) 14:39, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposal

I almost got off at the wrong stop because I thought Midi meant Middle or Central station.

In real life, there are no signs saying "South". In printed material of English, it does not say "South". Therefore, I propose that the article name be changed. Either Midi or Zuid or both or something related, but get rid of "South". Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposal: Gare du Bruxelles-Midi. Then change to Zuid in 2011. Reverse in 2012. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_du_Nord is an article so that shows that have a Gare... is ok for the English Wikipedia. Reason for French first in 2010 is because Midi is in the French area of Brussel. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 19:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC) Anybody reading this besides me? Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 16:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd take that as a joke if I hadn't seen you'd done the moves. Pathetic, that's all I can say. Well, there's disruptive as well... Physchim62 (talk) 16:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I've moved it back, for consistency with the other railway stations in Brussels. Physchim62 (talk) 16:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry you feel that way. I did the change because there was no objection (but probably should have waited more than a day).

Against a long name - Roofbird
Supporting my change - Oxyman
Supporting my change - pebbens
Supporting my change - talk
Supporting my change - Suomi Finland 2009 Against the French name - Physichim62

So, Physchim62, this is the consensus. However, I am not a bully. I also believe in rational thought. In fact, rational thought should come before voting strength, which is the opposite to many people's opinion in Wikipedia. When you say that it is convention, this deserves some consideration. But also the RS official name as well as the signage carries some weight. Because of your explanation, I am now studying the matter and am not voting. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 17:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, the "discussion" above – if one can call it that, as it is hardly a series of comments and replies – is all more than a year old, so I wouldn't put much weight on it except to readdress the points that have been raised before.

Firstly, your destination title, Gare de Bruxelles-Midi railway station. I object to the idea on two grounds. Firstly, we should say the same thing both in French and English! "Gare de", as I'm sure you're aware, means exactly the same in French as "railway station" in English. Secondly, I think your plan for switching titles every twelve months is unworkable, but it does highlight the true problem here.

In naming railway station articles, there is a strong tendency to keep with the local language as much as possible. But, in Brussels, there are two local languages: Wikipedia cannot take sides on the great Belgian linguistic debate, and Brussel/Bruxelles is officially tweetalige/bilingue. This rules out such monolingual solutions as Brussel-Zuid railway station or Gare de Bruxelles-Midi, even though it appears as "Bruxelles-Midi" on Eurostar tickets bought in the UK.

So, by elimination, we are left with two choices:

• Bruxelles-Midi/Brussel-Zuid railway station (or the other way round), which was the "long title" that Roofbird objected to.
• the current translated title Brussels-South railway station.

The translated title has the advantage of being neutral between the two official languages, and of following the guideline WP:USEENGLISH. It is also the style used for all other Brussels railway stations (Brussels-North, Brussels-Central, Brussels-Luxembourg), and has been the article's stable title for 2½ years. As far as I can see, moving the article would create far more problems than it solves. Physchim62 (talk) 18:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I read this with great respect to the thoughtfulness of the author of the post. Midi is in the French part of the city so use of Midi has justification. The style used in the other articles could be a sub-optimal idea so it could be perpetuating a bad idea.

Let me clearify one thing: there is no Dutch or French part of the city. The entire city is bilingual. 109.131.172.246 (talk) 10:02, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

This type of question cannot be solved. One side must surrender to the other side. Using my brain, I have heard English speakers ask for directions to the Midi station, not South. For some issues, discussion can convince people. In other issues, discussion can convince people to understand why there is another side. This is such an issue. Some issues, like the West Bank can never be solved or, at least not solved in the past 100 years. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 19:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Shibuya Station is a major Japanese train station. Wikipedia calls it Shibuya Station. That is a Japanese-English combination. It is not called Bitter Valley Station, which what the English translation would be. Following that convention might suggest that this article should be Bruxelles-Midi station. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 19:26, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Ah, but our article on Shibuya Station (at least we don't entitle it 渋谷駅) matches our article on Shibuya, just as our article on Brussels-South railway station matches our article on Brussels! Physchim62 (talk) 21:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC),

I am still giving respect to Physchim and supporting his opinion and name selection. However, I present the following link found on the home page of Belgium Rail: http://www.b-rail.be/php/news/index.php?lang=E&task=view&id=826 It saysAs from Friday 22 January, SNCB Europe is welcoming international travellers in its brand new Departure Today zone in Bruxelles-Midi. Bruxelles-Midi, Europe's main railway hub, is keen on welcoming international travellers in the best conditions. On Friday 22 January 2010, SNCB Europe opened its

Because Bruxelles-Midi is used by the English webpages of Belgian Rail, this may suggest the usage that we should use. However, I urge careful consideration first. I only advocate careful study at this point and not a change. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 19:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Bruxelles-Midi and Brussel-Zuid both simply mean "Brussels-South". I can't see whats the problem whith the current article name. I strongly object a monolingual French name as article name.

Please do not use the NMBS/SNCB English. They still think Belgium is a monolingual French speaking country while in fact 60% speaks Dutch. Brussels-South is a Brussels train station both it is important for the entire country. Thats why a monolinugal French name would be a insult for the majority of the Belgians. Besides, Brussels is bilingual: French AND Dutch. Not just French.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.21.169.188 (talk) 23:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC) To IP 78.21.169.188, see your talk page for comments unrelated to this article. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 01:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

There is already a precedence

This has alerady been discussed at length and decided by consensus in the Talk:Brussels-Capital Region/NamingArchive3. Please remember that this the is the English Wikipedia and the most common English usage is given priority, weather it is French, Flemmish or and English version. Therefore the article name must be Brussels-Midi not Brussels-South, Bruxelles-Midi nor Brussel-Zuid. --83.170.104.139 (talk) 10:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The multilingual recorded platform announcement welcoming Eurostar passengers on arrival does include the phrase "Brussels South" in English, so SNCB/MNBS is itself not consistent in its usage.

On the other hand, in actual real life, all non-Dutch and non-French speakers living in Brussels call the station "Midi station", and nobody ever calls it "Brussels South" or "the South station". (I state this with certainty after living in Brussels myself for 18 years.) They may or may not realise that "Midi" in French means "South". Still, perhaps it is an acceptable compromise that both "Bruxelles-Midi" and "Brussels Midi" redirect to this page. Alarics (talk) 16:54, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Why the fuzz?

I honestly wonder what this entire discussion is all about. Midi means south. Zuid means south. The name Brussels-South is hence not incorrect. It might not be the name mostly used by the locals, but given the bilingual identity of Brussels one might wonder if there is such a thing as a name for this station mostly used by the locals. Brussels-South is not a mistranslation, nor a totally different (or wrong) name for the station. See it as a little extra information: people looking up this article instantly see what the stations name means. For findability, both Gare de Bruxelles-Midi and Station Brussel-Zuid (or Brussel-Zuid railway station, as this seems to be more common with Belgian stations with a Dutch name) should be redirects to this article. Problem solved, or rather, there never actually was a problem in the first place. 109.131.172.246 (talk) 10:14, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Brussels South is described as an official name. This is contrary to the information on BelgianTrain.be, the official website.http://www.belgianrail.be/en/stations-and-train/search-a-station/1/BRUSSEL-ZUID%20%20BRUXELLES-MIDI.aspx Blaiserandpascal (talk) 06:34, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

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Translation with and without the word "station"

The first sentence is overly complex offering translations of both "Brussels-South railway station" and "Brussels-South" For the sake of brevity, I'd suggest we rewrite it as:

Brussels-South (Dutch: Brussel-Zuid, French: Bruxelles-Midi) is a major railway station in Brussels, Belgium.

This would bring the page closer in line with some of the other international standards. However, it might be good to establish an official convention for Belgian stations (akin to WP:USSTATION. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 23:38, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi RickyCourtney,

Thank you for your edits and for taking this subject to talk. I fully agree with you on the need to bring this page closer to its international counterparts, as well as the usefulness of having proper naming conventions for Belgian stations. Regarding your suggestion to only use the station's official/short name in the entrance sentence, however, I fear this might create some confusion when this name is the same as the station's location (e.g. city, municipality, etc.), or when similar names are used to describe different stations. The latter is true for this article, as Brussels-South railway station and Brussels-South metro station are two distinct stations, each with their own Wikipedia articles, though they are connected and form an ensemble often called "Brussels-South" in English. For instance, using your example, if we were to stay consistent with all other Belgian stations, the railway station for the city of Bruges would only be referred to as "Brugge", which is the same as the city's Dutch name, making it quite confusing for the average user. Therefore, I think maintaining "Brussels-South railway station" in the lead and instead adding the short name as a footnote would lighten the sentence whilst remaining clear and consistent. What do you think? This would render your sentence as follows:

Brussels-South railway station (French: Gare de Bruxelles-Midi, Dutch: Station Brussel-Zuid, IATA code: ZYR) is a major railway station in Brussels, Belgium.

Jason Lagos (talk) 20:36, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I think your suggestion is fine, however I don't fully understand the need to say that the Brussels-South railway station is officially Brussels-South. Perhaps I'm ignorant to the nuances in the languages, but isn't that implied? This isn't like Gare du Nord, where the official SNCF name is now simply Paris-Nord.

WP:BOLD would also support including Brussels-South railway station in bold, because that is the page name.

Also, I'm not sure about including the IATA code. That's not included on a lot of other indexed station pages and is already included in the infobox.

I would suggest:

Brussels-South railway station (French: Gare de Bruxelles-Midi, Dutch: Station Brussel-Zuid) is a major railway station in Brussels, Belgium.

-- RickyCourtney (talk) 22:33, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your quick response and confirmation. To answer your question, the current phrasing was chosen a long time ago, mainly for the two reasons I mentioned above, following lengthy discussions taking into account Belgium’s linguistic complexities, and as part of the existing naming conventions for Brussels. As the Belgian operator SNCB/NMBS works in both French and Dutch, the station’s official name is actually the bilingual hyphenated "Bruxelles-Midi/Brussel-Zuid" or "Brussel-Zuid/Bruxelles-Midi". Since no stations in the country currently contain the terms "Gare de/-station" in their names (officially at least), the precision was added and all articles about them were created in this logic. As the name used throughout this page is already a translated one and any past changes in this regard sometimes lead to heated exchanges, keeping the current phrasing (stable since 2013) seems to be a better option in my opinion. I would therefore advise against changing it (other than putting part of it as a footnote, as suggested) or shortening it, unless a broad consensus is found. As for the IATA code, I also agree with your proposal to remove it from the lead for consistency with most other articles. Jason Lagos (talk) 06:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

The same could be said for a lot of station pages on Wikipedia. The official name (at least as listed on signage) for most stations in the United States is just the city name, or the nearest street. We don't, for example, list "Emeryville station, officially Emeryville, is a station." It's redundant. That said, if you and other editors feel strongly that it needs to be included, go for it. I just want to offer a challenge and constructive criticism from an international perspective.

Another nuance I was thinking of... "gare de" and "station" should probably be in lower case like railway station to make it clear that it's not part of the official name. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 19:05, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi again, RickyCourtney. To make things clear, I truly appreciate your constructive criticism and all your improvements on this page so far. My point is to avoid changing the current typing style without consensus. Of course, if a majority of users believe this change to be useful, then I would have no problem accepting it. Please also note that unlike the US, where there is no ambiguity about the correct spelling and formatting of railway names, Belgium and Brussels in particular have to deal with complex linguistic laws, so the situation is a bit different. Moreover, since all Belgian stations were written using this logic, we must ensure that any edits provide the desired effect in terms of consistency. As for your last point, even if "gare de" and "station" are not part of the official names, they are still considered as proper nouns in this case and should thus be capitalised. According to French and Dutch grammatical rules, they would only be written in lower case when used with their respective articles (i.e. "la gare de Bruxelles-Midi" or "het station Brussel-Zuid"). I will correct this. Jason Lagos (talk) 19:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)