Talk:Braves (Native Americans)

Academic sources needed

If this article is retained, it needs to be expanded with academic sources from expert scholars who have studied the different cultures. Right now, it relies on amateur websites and pop-culture. Schazjmd (talk) 16:27, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

WP:Biography

Should the WikiProject Biography be included? Adamdaley (talk) 04:03, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Redirect

This entire article should be redirected to Stereotypes of indigenous peoples of Canada and the United States. It entirely reflects a colonial mindset and is about a term that does not exist in any Indigenous language. It makes tendentious statements about Native cultures that simply repeat tired stereotypes.Vizjim (talk) 07:00, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I think a merge into the article and then a redirect would be appropriate. There really is no need for a stand alone article as there isn't much information that couldn't be added to the article on stereotypes and the latter article isn't too large that it would become too cumbersome or difficult to follow. I think it would improve the article on stereotypes regardless. --ARoseWolf 14:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I have done some cleanup here, but I agree with the "merge into" option, although I would like the current title to disappear. Should any WP article title take the form "Racial slur (target of slur)"?--WriterArtistDC (talk) 15:01, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure it quite fits the term "slur." As ARoseWolf points out below, it was certainly taken up by at least some tribes, and the associations of the word are generally positive/neutral.Vizjim (talk) 16:37, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

On the other hand, I think the subject is worthy of an article, with the use of good sources. The term "brave", meaning adult males of native peoples of North America, is commonly used even in academic sources, and I think the readers of Wikipedia deserve an article exploring the origins and uses (and misuses) of that term. - Donald Albury 15:12, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Not sure what academic sources you are looking at - would be very interested to see recent academic articles describing Native American men as "braves"! WP:DICTIONARY would seem to apply here: the term is already defined on Wiktionary[1], and the information about stereotypes is covered in the suggested merge article. I have looked through various academic databases and as yet haven't found any specific studies of "brave" as a term other than Cutler's work (and even there it's a brief aside). It therefore seems unlikely that an article of the type you suggest can be written without original research.Vizjim (talk) 15:20, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I should have searched for sources before adding my comment. - Donald Albury 15:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

This entire article could be merged into the article mentioned above by @Vizjim and the information would be retained. The title of this article could then be used to redirect to that article and that specific section of that article. It is a term that was used. Wiping it out does no one any favors. It should be discussed in the context for which it was used in the sources, as are other stereotypes. It should be noted who used it. As a side: I came across this as I was updating articles on the Cherokee Nation last year. The "Cherokee Braves" was a regiment from the Cherokee Nation during the U.S. Civil War under the command of Brig. Gen. Stand Watie, a former Principal Chief of the Cherokee. This was a command organized from two separate regiments, one being full Cherokee and the other being mixed Cherokee. It was organized and named by Cherokees, some of which were slaveholders and others who were just loyal to the current Principal Chief. Why they chose "Braves" as their name probably has to do with the recognition by the currently military establishment of both the Confederacy and the U.S. but who is to say? Maybe it is discussed somewhere and we can find that source. --ARoseWolf 16:26, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

When I searched earlier today, I found sources that discuss the use of "Braves" (and other terms) in the names of sports teams, but I was unable to find any reliable sources that discuss the origin and use of the term "brave(s)" for American Indian men. There may be suitable reliable sources off-line, or buried deeper than my search went today, but without reliable sources, we may not be able to do more than point at cases where the term was used. - Donald Albury 17:00, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Vizjim asked me about this the other day and I supported the merge and redirect. He sought input then, and again sought input at the Wikiproject when he was reverted. As Donald was the only objector that I've seen, and has now withdrawn that objection, I think we have had sufficient discussion and can once again proceed with the merge and redirect. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

In a final bit of cleanup, I found a link to the source added for Native Americans in the US Army, (Morgan, Thomas D. (Fall 1995). "Native Americans in World War II" (PDF). Army History. 35: 22–27.) but it makes no mention of the word braves so I deleted the sentence.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 20:33, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Rename

It seems to me that the problem with this article was its title, not the subject matter. Redirecting it to another article about racial stereotypes was wrong because it removed a lot of useful, sourced information. Therefore I have moved the content to a new article titled "Native American Warrior", and replaced controversial terms like "Brave" or "Indian" with "warrior" and "Native American".53zodiac (talk) 19:08, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

You are incorrect. The problem with this article remains that it mixes together warrior traditions from different tribal nations, mostly Plains Indians, and assumes that these traditions stretch over all Native American tribal nations, language groups, cultural groupings, etc. In its current (reverted) form, it reflects settler history, not reality. (You might want to think about the types of sources it uses). I will undo your reverts here entirely. In order to avoid an edit war, please respond on the talk page here and engage with other users before re-adding this material.Vizjim (talk) 06:27, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

The logical thing to do would be to change the wording to refer only to Plains Native Americans, as they were the ones who fought in the Indian Wars in the West from the mid-late 19th century. Most of the sources were written by settlers because they had the benefit of the written word, but there are also transcriptions of Native oral accounts and academic texts that are sympathetic to the Natives' viewpoint, like Dee Brown's Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee. Would something like Plains Native American Warrior be a more accurate title? 53zodiac (talk) 17:08, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Plains Indians Warfare which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:21, 16 November 2021 (UTC)