Talk:Bolivarian missions

Untitled

This page, if done well, would seem to duplicate a lot of the material from Hugo Chávez. Utlimately, I think the material would be better placed here, where, for example, it would last if the programs last but Chávez doesn't, or just because Chávez probably isn't personally involved in the development of each mission. DanKeshet 15:49, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Formatting

I removed the "div" tags. If you want text to be 100% and justified, please either add it to your personal stylesheet, or lobby to have it included in the standard stylesheet. If we add "div" tags to every article, we'll have a hard time making system-wide changes. Peace! DanKeshet 15:49, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I strongly believe the facts and opinions expressed in this article and the other articles regarding the "Bolivarian missions" are biased in favor of Chavez, there is no mention of the criticism about the actual efectiveness of these policies and there is no mention of the massive blackmailing involved in them, i.e. if you signed the petition for Chavez's recall referendum there is no way you will get any benefit from these. I would like if someone takes the time and add more objective information (perhaps I will do it myself later) Nelliug 9:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC-5)

I've just noticed this, will add an unbalanced tag, and will be working on adding the criticisms to the article.

There is another glaring problem with the graphic, made by Saravask, to illustrate unemployment. It utilizes a common means of over-emphasizing statistical data. By using a graph which starts at 10% (rather than at 0), swings in unemployment are over-emphasized, and the impression is given of dramatic shifts. The graph should be eliminated, or redone to illustrate a better scale.

We also need to have someone run a bot to convert the old referencing style, so the article will be easier to work on. Sandy 12:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Sync the template with the article

The Bolivarian Missions template does not agree with the article.

• For consistency, they should be in the same order
• The template does not include Florentino, Arbol, and Ciencia
• The article does not include Plan Bolivar 2000 and Piar

Sandy 13:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticism section

As the subheading of the section suggests, this isn't really criticism of the Bolivarian Missions, but of Chavez's policies more generally. Move elsewhere, if it isn't duplicated anyway. 86.53.55.135 09:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Bypassing the public sector

From a news report, I was left with the impression that the Misiones are efforts to bypass the inherited public sector (probably he thinks it corrupt) with task forces derived from the military. Could you say that Chavez is building a parallel public sector? --84.20.17.84 12:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Details

This article should have less quotes of Chavez' rhetoric and more specific program details. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.67 (talk) 18:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Sub pages

Why does each mission gets its own page? they aren't even in deep analisys of them. I propose that they be merged into a single page, or into this one. 190.72.36.225 (talk) 20:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Moved

[According to one Venezuelan columnist], most of the missions were created to bypass the formal system of public health care, nutrition programs and education system. This created more problems for the pre-existing public system: most of the hospitals are without proper equipment and new hospitals have not been created since 2003.

The above is misleading and partially inaccurate (no new hospitals? What about the Latin American Children’s Cardiology Hospital?), and it is based on an opinion piece. It is not a suitable source. There are criticisms to be made, but better sources are needed. Rd232 ^talk 22:11, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Dear friend Venezuela is a country of 27 million people, do you really think that only ONE Hospital in 11 years of government is enough to all the population?, this is not based on opinion, is an opinion based on a FACT. BCLH (talk) 15:00, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I just mentioned one I remembered. I don't know what your second sentence means. Rd232 ^talk 15:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

It means the opinion of the Venezuelan columnist is based on data. And if you gonna make a change in the article referring just to one hospital, it is better to leave it without changes. Here is the WHO World Health Statistics 2009 , if you look the hospitals beds available in Venezuela, you will see that Venezuela is below countries like Urbekistan and Turkey, countries with less GDP. BCLH (talk) 16:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Um ... dude, those links you provided don't work so we have no idea is what you're saying is even remotely accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.172.21 (talk) 06:32, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Update and clean up

Much of the information in this article and other Bolivarian Mission articles needs to be updated, cleaned up, or just have citations placed in general.--ZiaLater (talk) 19:31, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Uncited sections

The following sections were placed by a user who sometimes forgets to place sources and needs to be worked on: --ZiaLater (talk) 00:50, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

2011 Grand Missions

Launched by the national government simultaneously with the 2011 national celebrations in honor of the bicentennial of the Venezuelan Declaration of Independence, these Grand Missions are aimed to help build a more stronger nation for the people by solving the problems they face.

• Grand Mission AgroVenezuela – the national answer to the growing international crisis in food, the mission aims to promote agricultural self-sustainably and increase food production.
• Grand Mission Vivienda Venezuela – launched in April 2011, this program targets the housing sector. 2,000,000 houses are planned to be built nationwide to solve the housing crisis in the country.
• Grand Mission En Amor Mayor – tasks to give retirement benefits to poor families and to those who cannot afford social security costs
• Grand Mission Homes of Venezuela (Hogares de Venezuela) – an attempt at a national answer to fight extreme poverty and to reinforce assistance to poor families nationwide, divided into:
  • Mission Madres del Barrio – an outreach to mothers in the poorest neighborhoods
  • Mission Sons and Daughters of Venezuela - aimed at poor young adults
  • Mission Boys and Girls of the Fatherland - aimed at fighting extreme poverty among children
  • Mission Child Jesus (Niño Jesús) - aimed at helping poor young children and babies and their families
• Grand Mission Saber y Trabajo – aims to create in 2018 a 3 million working population by providing more job opportunities
• Grand Mission A Toda Vida Venezuela – promotes fitness, sports and cultural activities for the benefit of every Venezuelan to turn away from criminal acts and thus reduce the crime rate
• Grand Mission New Barrio, Tricolor Barrio (Barrio Nuevo, Barrio Tricolor) – aims at community and neighborhood improvement in poor urban and rural areas nationwide

Post-Chavez Legacy Missions and social programs

More missions were created under the current government of President Nicolas Maduro, and these, alongside the missions above, have been combined to form one National Missions System (Sistema Nacional de Misiones) in 2014, in order to provide not just funding and advice but also to synchronize activities and to strengthen their objectives.

• Mission Nevado - named after the late pet dog of Simon Bolivar, aimed towards animal rights, pets and pet owners
• Grand Mission Negro Primero - Named after the nickname of Venezuelan independence hero Pedro Camejo, aimed at upgrading the combat capabilities of all service personnel of the National Armed Forces and to strengthen the performance of the duties of national defense and public service to the people
• Mission Barrio Adentro Deportivo - aims at community sports development in poor neighborhoods
• Robert Serra Mission Youth of the Fatherland - envisoned for the rights and welfare of Venezuelan youth, one of the newest missions to be launched (started October 2014)
• Transport Mission - aimed towards a general modernization and capability upgrade of Venezuelan transport systems
• My Good Equipped House program - providing quality and easy access at fair prices for household applicances and other items
• Mission Negra Hipólita - named after the slave maid of the Bolivar family, targeted towards poor housewives

Correlation does not imply causation

Correlation does not imply causation with the Bolivarian missions, especially when comparing poverty, GINI index, water quality, etc. that have similar trends with other Latin American countries. Venezuela was flourishing from the 1950s to the early 1980s with oil profits that benefitted its people more than many Latin American countries giving them a lead in many social areas compared to the rest of Latin America. In order to distinguish the Bolivarian missions from normal trends in Latin America, we need to find sources and facts from this that are more concrete than those presented by CEPR, Venezuelanalysis and Z Communications.

Here is some stuff I moved here, though some is covered by existing sources:

• The infant mortality rate fell by 18.2% between 1998 and 2006.

• Dead link - The government earmarked 44.6% of the 2007 budget for social investment, with 1999-2007 averaging 12.8% of GDP.

• Moved here (outdated, elaborate?) - In September 2007, speaking at the inauguration of the school year, Chavez announced a new curricular programme to be adopted by both public and private schools, which would "promote values of cooperation and solidarity". While promising he would make education his top priority and increase funding, he spoke of his vision of the future of education, based around "learning to create, to live together, to value and to reflect."

References

Reply: Honestly, Zia, your latest edits appear extremely partisan. Removing much positive information from the lead based on a thin "correlation doesn't equal causation" argument while upping the criticism? C'mon... I restored some statistics. They appear to be reliably sourced and and obvious cases of causation equaling causation. At the very least, the extensively-used BBC source repeatedly draws the link between the social advances/improvements and the missions—heck, the article even lists many accomplishments under a section titled "Missions." I added some quotes to the lead to highlight this, as well as pointed out the most prominent missions because it's relevant in a list of them.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 15:37, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I also question why you don't mention what happened in Venezuela after the mid-80s in your attempt to make life there look fine up until Chavez. The oil price collapse was a catastrophe for Venezuela—things like poverty skyrocketed—much more so than for anyone else in Latin America, so the comparison does not seem apt. Regardless of how other countries were facing their own problems, Chavez tackled Venezuela's with the missions. This seems kind of obvious to me.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 16:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I am just updating it with reliable sources. Poverty and such was stated below the lede in a designated section. I was just trying to not load the lede with a pile of statistics. If we are going to do that, let's throw in the murder rate, kidnapping rate and such.--ZiaLater (talk) 17:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Since Mbinebri believes certain social statistics belong in the lede, I have presented some that have been overlooked.--ZiaLater (talk) 20:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Statistics relating to the, well, mission of the Missions (poverty, education, etc.) are in general valid content for the lead—whoever wrote it be that way in the first place obviously thought so. If you feel there's too much redundancy/detail in the lead, that's a valid point to discuss but it wasn't the originally stated intent of your edits. That said, stats on the murder rate and kidnappings have no relevance to this article that I can see. The Missions are generally anti-poverty, not anti-crime.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 01:23, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with MbinebriCathar66 (talk) 01:32, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I meant to say not having such statistics in the lede. Sorry about that. Thanks for understanding though.--ZiaLater (talk) 02:18, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I have been quite busy so I can shortly respond to you Mbinebri. My edits are not partisan, just an update on the missions. Yes, I know that there has been positive things from the Bolivarian missions but they seemed exaggerated according to the previously used biased sources and due the outdated info. That is why I asked for more sources because ordinarily one article from BBC wouldn't cut it for an article. So yes, things got a little better in Venezuela (just like the majority of Latin America) with poverty and education in Venezuela considering the fact that Chavez used the sharp increase of oil prices in the 2000s to fund his populist policies. Chavez was lucky to have this increase in prices and was smart to push for higher prices. That is why I included the information about how it wasn't since the 1980s that oil funds were at an such a high, not by trying to say things were fine in the 1980s since they definitely weren't. Since the beginning of such policies though, you can see Venezuela's economy following the prices of oil. That is where things weren't so smart. Now that oil funds aren't appearing, price controls limit the needed dollar and nationalizations caused declines in production, you can see that these social policies have been in trouble, especially when you see President Maduro out begging and then finally putting the crisis in God's hands. Whatever the case, I only wish the best for Venezuela and that people can figure out their differences so they can fix the rising amount of problems. Sorry if this seemed soapboxish, but I saw that you had to read into it and wanted to help Mbinebri.

Also, I find it interesting how there wasn't/isn't a Bolivarian mission against crime since that is definitely a social issue, especially when it is a primary concern of Venezuelans and has even urged many to leave the country.--ZiaLater (talk) 04:45, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

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