Talk:Bernie Glassman

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Talk page for Tetsugen Bernard Glassman

• I did some polish on this article, but it still needs some work. Clearly this is a notable person who should have an article on wikipedia, but right now it reads a bit like a press release and needs to be fleshed out a bit. This is an article about a living person, so I'll request the biography project to add this to their list of articles to watch. Nightngle 19:37, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
• Removed 'lesbian' as an adjective where Enkyo Pat O'Hara is mentioned in the introduction. Can't see the justification in labelling someone by their sexual orientation in this article. Andy Warren (talk) 13:19, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• I have added (and then reinstated) some additional Dharma heirs of Glassman's student Robert Jinsen Kennedy Roshi; not because this is necessarily the best place, but because this is the fullest list of Glassman's heirs in Wikipedia at present. No, they are not (yet) on Ciolek's web page, mistitled by reference to Sanbo Kyodan (a name which should really be applied only to a certain subgroup of the Yamada line of succession who still acknowledge a link to the Sanbo Kyodan, and not to all dharma heirs of Kapleau, Maezumi, Aitken, et al.). I was present at the ceremony at which Robert Jinsen Kennedy Roshi conferred Inka on Patrick Kundo Eastman Roshi, so I do know what I'm talking about. Myopic Bookworm (talk) 13:31, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Respectfully, claiming that your presence carries weight is WP:OR and WP:PRIMARY. Without reliable third party sources, please don't add that information. Helpsome (talk) 14:30, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

It would be more polite to add a "citation needed" tag to the text rather than simply deleting the information. In any case, I added a web reference which you appear to have ignored. Myopic Bookworm (talk) 16:41, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

It would be wrong to add a template as the onus is on the person adding it to prove it is valid. Your reference doesn't say anything about Dharma heirs and as such it doesn't reference what you claim it references. It is a list of teachers. Helpsome (talk) 20:28, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

deletions and deliberate distions

there are serious deletions and deliberate distions that alter this from biography to hagiography.

• this narrative reverses the dates and makes assertions about intentions quite contrary to fact.
• the zen center was a mansion and an estate called graystone, bought for mr glassman by an anonymous donor, (probably their neighbor Lex Hixon, but i can't verify that.)
• the zen center was founded long before graystone bakery was.
• prior to the bakery, graystone members managed a restaurant for the local marina, working as waiters and waiters helpers. when the bakery was founded its sole purpose was income. there was no plan to help homeless people. training homeless, serving the homeless occured quite a few years later. while graystone was still in riverdale, the only help for the homeless was delivering unsold baked goods to kitchens for the hungry. the workforce at graystone was strictly unpaid students of his. unpaid and without medical or any other benefits. any disagreement resulted in immediate expulsion. no unemployment benefits. in fact, you had no choice. and mr glassman's first wife was in charge. they also ran a restaurant in Riverdale. for the purpose of income. quite literally you were given no choices. you got orders and followed them. no discussion. no warning. no recourse. [1] quote:some members of the sangha did not see the correlation between Zen training and baking cakes or delivering baked goods—particularly not on an essentially volunteer basis. This model was once played out with Green’s Restaurant run by the San Francisco Zen Center—where (at the behest of Zentatsu Richard Baker) Zen center students donated their hard work in exchange for little compensation. While this was not the most important factor in Baker-roshi’s forced resignation from the SFZC, it certainly played a role in some of the resentment that accumulated among the sangha preceding that event. Perhaps similarly, several members of Glassman’s sangha eventually left due to a perception held that the importance of business had surpassed the importance of Zen training.endquote there was no homeless outreach and no homeless training at graystone bakery until years later. it was income. supporting a very expensive estate and grounds. in a very expensive very high class part of NYC, Riverdale. In Riverdale there were no homeless. Riverdale is as upperclass as it gets. Graystone had no outreach to poor or minorities. that developed later in the decade. (front page articles in Wall Street Journal) [2]
• the sales force, the administration, the bakers, cleaners, all were unpaid students and clergy and monks at the Zen Center, some of whom contributed their personal incomes to the Zen Center and paid rent for living there. any disagreement was followed by dismissal. no unemployment no benefits. no time off.
• glassman's first wife and children aren't even mentioned nor his divorce, nor the fact that he was in a relationship with another person while still married, and that relationship became his second wife. while sensei. nor the fact that he was still a practicing jew and with his wife while sensei at graystone. she wrote the graystone cook book in 1986. [3]
• mr. glassman deserves full and complete and unqualified discussion. but there is a responsibility here to avoid hagiography. this article is hagiography.
• the article doesn't discuss his "clown" phase where he studied and all his students as well how to be a clown[4][5]:"When I clown I wear a red nose. I have a minimum of clown attire. The training I’m doing is not so makeup- or dress-oriented; you create your identity from within. But I do use a nose most of the time. When someone’s wearing a nose, people can listen to that person without offense. What I’ve found is that if I can visualize the nose on someone else, then no matter what they say I can take it a different way. Visualize a nose on George Bush and listen to him talk and you’ll find that you react very differently. I’ve taken some people’s words that I completely disagree with, but put a nose on them, yeah, I still disagree with what they’re saying, but it’s not so terrible. [laughs].""

[6] [7]

User:Isafakir 10 february 2013

Requested move 1 December 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved (non-admin closure) JC7V (talk) 17:39, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

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Tetsugen Bernard Glassman → Bernie Glassman – Wikipedia article titles should use the WP:COMMONNAME. This article was created in 2006 by the user BernieGlassman using the title 'Tetsugen Bernard Glassman' with the edit comment "New biography for Tetsugen Bernard Glassman better known as Bernie Glassman". I suspect the editor thought the article's title needed to be the person's formal or legal name. Popular news articles, such as this CNN article about his death use the name Bernie Glassman. While his first book published in 1996 used "Bernard Glassman" all of the remaining books was published using "Bernie Glassman." His web sites consistently use "Bernie Glassman." I suspect the move will be non-controversial but as he was a spiritual leader it's possible the name "Tetsugen Bernard Glassman" is important. If so, that should be explained. --Marc Kupper|talk 17:51, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

• @Zangtsal: who has been editing this and similar articles regularly. --Marc Kupper|talk 18:02, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
• I found a source for the "Tetsugen" part of his name. "Glassman was given the dharma name Tetsugen, or 'penetrator of subtleties.'"^[8] though unfortunately that source does not say who gave him the name Tetsugen nor when. I'd guess it from Taizan Maezumi who was Glassman's sensei at the time though it's possible it was from someone else within Soto Zen. That same article also has "Maezumi died unexpectedly in 1995. Soon after, Glassman stopped wearing robes, grew his hair out and told people to call him Bernie." and also "He felt like the name Tetsugen didn't cut it when he was at a city council meeting trying to get approval for a project. He made that decision right after his teacher died, and that is important" and "I couldn't have hair when I was with Maezumi Roshi and I couldn't be Bernie. Then he died in '95, and by '96 I was Bernie again, and I had a beard and hair." Thus he has gone by "Bernie Glassman" since 1995. --Marc Kupper|talk 09:36, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support rename, but with redirect.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 16:55, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support and Comment if Tetsugen Bernard Glassman was his full real name, shouldn't this me mentioned somewhere in the article? The article is fine named Bernie or Bernard Glassman as this is the first name - last name combination he normally went by. MegaSloth (talk) 13:10, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support and Commment yes, Bernie Glassman was only known as Bernie for at least 20 years. He didn't use his Japanese Buddhist name Tetsugen, and he was universally known as Bernie Glassman. So it would make sense to have this as the main page title. Zangtsal (talk) 23:18, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.