Talk:Battle of Novšiće

Ottoman Empire

The belligerent listed is Ottoman Empire, strange, but it comes out a little below that the Albanians were fighting and some of them were from Plav-Gusinje. This is as ridiculous as insulting. They were not bashibozouks hired by the League of Prizren, but Albanian forces of the League of Prizren. And what does pro-Ottoman mean? They were simply Albanians, partly Muslim, partly Catholic. Ottoman Empire had already signed the Treaty of St. Stefan. For the Ottomans, the issue was closed, the area was seceded to Montenegro, no fighting needed or allowed. As it actually happened after the League was suppressed by them.

Regardless of the will of showing it as a Montenegrin - Ottoman fight, it was a Montenegrin - Albanian fight, so whoever created the infobox should fix it. Mondiad (talk) 01:07, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, identification of the battle as either "Montenegrin-Ottoman" or "Montenegrin-Albanian" is incorrect.

- The population of Plav-Gusinje at the time was under Ottoman rule, so one could possibly understand why it would say "Montenegrin-Ottoman". However, the Ottoman Empire relinquished control of Plav-Gusinje with the Treaty of San Stefano in 1878, before the battle erupted. Therefore, the "Montenegrin-Ottoman" moniker is simply erroneous.

- The population of Plav-Gusinje at the time was PARTLY Albanian. The ancestry of the families from these towns is largely from Slavic-speaking areas in modern-day Montenegro, especially Kuči. That is not to say that there is a significant portion of the population with Albanian ancestry, namely Hoti, Kelmendi and Kastrati (tribes of Northern Albania). I mention ancestry to explain that the descendants of the Slavic-speaking stock continue to speak Slavic (Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosniak/Bosnian - depending on how you define it) and those who descend from Albanian-speaking stock (mostly) continue to speak Albanian. I say mostly because today there are those of Albanian origin within the region who no longer identify with the Albanian culture - an assimilation to Bosniak. Before I get criticized about the relevance of today's linguistic situation compared to the 19th century, I would like to mention a 1923 book by Andrija Jovićević about the region (cf. Plavsko-gusinjska oblast, Polimlje, Velika i Šekular). He describes how the population mostly spoke Slavic, even before his studies in the region; Albanian speakers were minimal. Where's the relevance? Well, in part, you are what you speak (at least back then anyway).

All the sources that are listed are Serbian-Montenegrin. Most important, you make a huge mistake - you try to evaluate the events of that time (over 130 years ago) based on the ethnic composition of today. This is crucial. The demographics change. Anyway, Plav-Gusinje was one of the most pure Albanian areas, far more than other regions which are mostly Albanian today, like Kosovo for instance. There are references for this. Plva-Gusinje was the area mostly visited by Edith Durham and documented. As far as the Muslims/Bosnians, there were 5 delegates from them in the League from all around the Vilayet. And don't start with the theory "they spoke Slavic", cause Albanians throughout former Yugoslavia speak Slavic even todayMondiad (talk) 15:22, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

- This whole sense of it being an Albanian conflict is because Plav-Gusinje allied itself with Albanian irridentists in hopes of creating a safe-haven for its Muslim population. The Turks basically turned their back on them, so they had no choice but to turn to the Albanians. The population of Plav-Gusinje, if they really wanted to be part of Albania, would consider themselves Albanian. But most don't, they've traditionally allied themselves with Bosnia - partly why they continue to refer to themselves as Bosniaks. Aside from that, the population of Plav-Gusinje did not want to join Montenegro because they feared for what they perceived would come if they did. We're talking about a Muslim-majority region joining an Orthodox-majority country. Muslims formed a significant portion of the populations of towns such as Nikšić, Spuž, Kolašin, Podgorica, etc. in the 19th century. Where are they now? Some migrated to Bosnia, some elsewhere in the Ottoman Empire, some without a trace. Islam only managed to stay grounded along the outskirts of Montenegro. More importantly, the fears of the population of Plav-Gusinje came to realization in 1912 and 1913 when they finally came under Montenegro's control. There were mass conversions in Plav-Gusinje of its Muslim and Catholic populations to Eastern Orthodoxy, indirectly sponsored by the Royal Montenegrin government. This claim is debatable based on the evidence available but what is clear is that the Royal Montenegrin army did in fact carry out these mass conversions. Those who denied conversion were massacred; victims piled in mass graves. This scare tactic instilled fear among the population to which it did convert en masse to Orthodoxy. However, they did appeal to the "Great Powers" for grievance against these crimes. The Great Powers forced Montenegro to rectify these mistakes, allowing the Muslim population to revert back to Islam and "punishing" those responsible for the ordeal.

Once again, how they affiliate today is not an indicator of the ethnic composition of 1878. And it doesn't deny the fact that Ali Pasha Gusinje was Albanian,and member of the League, and the only political formation opposing the secession of the area to Montenegro was the League of Prizren. At the same time that you say "if they really wanted to be part of Albania, would consider themselves Albanian." you forget that the whole article is regarding the events triggered by the League of Prizren opposition. Otherwise, would there be an article as all?
Very simple, there are more expert people when it comes to Albanian studies Mondiad (talk) 15:22, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

tl;dr This battle was more along the lines of religious war. There were no ethnic or nationalist grounds here. Montenegrins fought rebel forces who rejected Montenegro's claim to these lands. --Prevalis (talk) 02:07, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

This was not conflict between Montenegro and some rebels on Montenegrin territory. Montenegrin army advanced into Ottoman territory and fell into a trap prepared by Ottoman irregulars. They were organized and armed by OE (yes, along the religious lines) because OE could not employ its regular forces based on the Threaty of Berlin. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Name of article

The name of this article bothers me. As far as my experience goes, hearing conversations and reading historical articles, this battle was always referred to as "Boj na Nokšiću" or "Bitka na Nokšiću", i.e. Battle of Nokšići. The term "Boj na Novšiću" is unfamiliar to me, but I am aware that the village is called Novšiće. However, the village was previously called Novšići until relatively recently, but to my knowledge, it was originally known as Nokšići. Andrija Jovićević in his studies on the region referred to the village as Novšići in 1923, yet it wouldn't make any sense for the Albanians to call it "Nokshiq" and Slavic-speakers to call it "Novšiće", unless someone changed something...

Also, another note, "Boj na Novšiću" is grammatically incorrect (as is my rendering above too). Definitely a relic of the Montenegrin dialects. It should be Boj/Bitna na Novšićima based on modern standard, though.

Istorijski leksikon Crne Gore, A-Crn gives the name of the battle as Bitka na Novšićima (Nokšićima). Perhaps we can use that as the Serbian translation instead? --Prevalis (talk) 02:36, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Will you please clarify if you dispute the name of the article or local language name? For local language name I used wording I found in sources I used in the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:51, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

As an Albanian, I can inform that in Albanian histography always called this Beteja e Nokshiqit, the place being Nokshiq in Albanian language. You can also see that it's called that way in the Albanian wikipedia. --Tringellima (talk) 23:17, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Tag bombing the article

Mondiad tagbombed this article (diff) because they believe that Albanian forces were one of beligerents, not Ottoman forces, although Albania did not even exist at that time. They presented no sources for their position, nor wrote a single comment about the sources they proclaimed nonreliable. They did not follow recomendation of Template:Unreliable sources which says Consider tagging any specific statements with potentially unreliable sources with {{Verify credibility|date=December 2014}} before tagging the whole article with this template. There are dozens of different sources used in the article and it is unlikely they all are non-reliable. That is why I will remove tags.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:21, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

League of Prizren existed at that time, what does Albania have to do with this? All the sources are Serbian. There are far more reliable sources and neutral sources when it comes to League of Prizren. If you can't find them, don't remove the tags until someone can.Mondiad (talk) 15:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

In this comment (diff) you insisted thaat one of beligerents were "Albanian forces" and that this conflict was " a Montenegrin - Albanian fight". Now you say "what does Albania have to do with this?" You actually refuted your own position. All editors that participated in discussion disagreed with you, so please remove the tag you added here.

Not all sources are written on Serbian language. One of the sources is Forrin Office of Great Britain. English langauge sources do not cover this topic. Your proclamation that sources are unreliable because they are written on Serbian language is not valid argument for the tag. Please remove it. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:37, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't have any issue with Serbian sources, but I have issues with the neutrality of Serbian sources used in this article. And when I say Albanian-Montenegrin fight, I refer to Albanians in ethnic terms. Same as you might say "Serbians" in 1803, even though Serbia didn't exist back then.

Taking the Albanian element and the League off the belligerents is not casual. Albanians volunteers get mentioned as Bashibouzuks, which is wrong cause bashibozouks were irregulars of the Ottoman army, paid by the Ottomans, and fighting for the Ottomans. Not necessary Albanians most of all. Your paesano Zoupan has this tendencies unfortunately. And what is this logic that "they call themselves Bosnian today"?. This is how you start the articles, by how the national affiliation composition looks today?Mondiad (talk) 18:56, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

• I explained you that Template:Unreliable sources says Consider tagging any specific statements with potentially unreliable sources with {{Verify credibility|date=December 2014}} before tagging the whole article with this template. Ignoring this requestt and repeatedly proclaiming all sources written on Serbian language as unreliable without a single argument is not constructive.
• Your referring to Zoupan as my "paesano" is personal attack and violation of WP:NPA.
• Montenegrin forces were opposed by "irregulars of the Ottoman army, paid by the Ottomans, and fighting for the Ottomans". That is why some sources refer to them as bashibozuk. Many of them were Albanians, but that was not relevant for determination of beligirent. The infobox does clarify that forces that ambushed Montenegrin army were "Pro-Ottoman Muslim and Albanian irregulars of the League of Prizren from Scutari Vilayet (Plav and Gusinje) and Kosovo Vilayet"
• Please remind me where did I wrote "they call themselves Bosnian today"?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:15, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Nothing personal here, what is evident is evident. Its becoming a question of numbers, not quality. Why is the Belligerent still Ottoman Empire instead of the League of Prizren?Mondiad (talk) 22:24, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Changed belligerants in the infobox. The tag doesn't have a single Albanian source, although this is an important piece of the League of Prizren, an Albanian league for the defense of protection of Albanian lands from Slavic and Greek invadors. This makes the article a little biased on the Slavic side, however, I don't see many problems with the significant enlargement that the article went through in the last week. The problem is to bring some more Albanian sources, because there will be very few English ones. Of course, Ottoman sources would be even better, but they are, as always, hard to find. Tringellima (talk) 23:20, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

You Mondiad wrote a comment on another editor instead on their contribution. That constitutes personal attack per WP:NPA.

The pro-Ottoman irregulars were commanded by official Ottoman governor (kaymakam) of Gusinje.

The pro-Ottoman irregulars strugled for teritorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire.

The pro-Ottoman irregulars were armed and organized by Ottoman Empire.

That is why one of beligerents is Ottoman Empire. There is a whole section of text in the article which clearly presents three different positions regarding beligerents on Ottoman side. Its impossible to be more neutral regarding beligernts. Actually, your insisting to present beligerents based on Albanian nationalistic position would be violation of NPOV and could justify tags you placed here. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:32, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

No, Mondiad is based on historiography of Albania, and that's not necessarily nationalistic. Let's not call names here. This is one of the most complex articles of the history of Albania, and I understand why nobody bothered to write about it: it's kind of complicated. The story goes like this: the League of Prizren was initially endorsed by the Porte, and then the Porte fought against its own creation. The towns of Plav and Guci were Albanian back then (and actually still are, assimilation efforts not withstanding). Tringellima (talk) 23:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Treaty of St. Stefano followed by Congress of Berlin ceased the territories to Montenegro. Ottoman Empire signed in both cases. For the Ottomans, the story was over. The League of Prizren was suppressed by the Ottomans themselves (I assume we agree on this), and the article mentions Ottoman authorities urging population to accept Montenegrin rule. How can Ottoman Empire be the Belligerent, when they handed over the territories based on the treaties above, before this battles began?

Ali Pasha Gusinje was Albanian, and member of the League. He was not fighting on behalf of the Ottomans, or because he was receiving orders from them. No official Ottoman army was involved here. Based on the treaties above, no Ottoman army was even present in the area because the territories were officially ceased.

Irregulars, volunteers sent by the League, muslim population, whatever, they should be listed as they were, not as Ottoman Empire. Ottoman Empire was far more complex thing.

"The pro-Ottoman irregulars strugled for teritorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire" - this does not mean that the Ottoman Empire was involved in war. And the "pro-Ottoman" adjective you use means exactly what I am saying, Ottoman Empire was not a belligerent. It's like saying pro-Ottoman rebels of Haxhi Qamili make Ottoman Empire a belligerent. Mondiad (talk) 01:34, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I made some changes from "pro-Ottoman irregulars" to "League of Prizren forces", which more correctly describes they way those forces were organized. Tringellima (talk) 03:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

@Mondiad. The sources and real events do not support your position. For Ottoman Empire the story was not over because the Ottomans successfully avoided their obligation to cede Plav and Gusinje to Montenegro and those two towns remained part of Ottoman Empire for another 33 years. The Ottoman Empire was of course involved in this war. This battle took place on the territory of Ottoman empire. Irregulars were armed and organized by Ottomans and commanded by Ottoman official (kaymakam). Yes he was member of Prizren League, like many other Ottoman officials including some from Bosnia. Initially this league was not pro-Albanian, but pro-Muslim. There is scholarly consensus about it. Irregulars who participated in this battle were not politicians who were members of PL but pro-Ottoman Muslims, both Slavs and Albanians.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Novšiće in Albania

One editor edit warred to categorize this article in following categories: 1870s in Albania and Battles involving Albania (diff). The same editor proclaimed that Plav and Gusinje are still Albanian (diff). I think this is just another blatant example of Greater Albania point of view which is disruptive and damaging for wikipedia and this article too.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

It is not in Albania, but used to be part of Ottoman Albania. The article is of mid-importance for wp:Albania, therefore should be some category to link it to Albanian history, not necessarily the ones you mentioned.

Mondiad (talk) 22:54, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Ottoman Albania for some editors still translates to "Greater Albania". Some have difficulty separating personal opinions from the context of history through peer reviewed sources. Novsice was part of the Scutari vilayet. The area that it was in was referred to as Ottoman Albania, a historical region until the Balkan wars.Resnjari (talk) 03:52, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Edits by DenisGusinje

The latest edits by DenisGusinje are disruptive. The user is continuously trying to remove content and to shift the article away from the League of Prizren context into the Bosnia or Bosnian context. Any changes should be discussed in the talk page of the article in advance. The article is of mid-importance for both Albania and Montenegro, therefore we should avoid substantial collisions and intrusion of this kind, otherwise it is never going to end.
Mondiad (talk) 22:54, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

He also has not made the case in here as to why they should be removed. Wikipedia polices on sources states that peer reviewed sources and not personal opinion guide the writing of the article and its contents. Unless Denis has "uncovered" an issue with the scholars cited or some kind of "factual" error using peer reviewed sources, then those edits are not done in good faith and constitute vandalism. I say to Denis make you case here or discontinue your behavior.Resnjari (talk) 03:52, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, latest edits of DenisGusinje are disruptive, especially this one (diff). On the other hand, it is probably necessary to clarify (shortly) that contemporary Bosniak nationalistic ideology attribute Bosniak context to this conflict and Bosniak ethnicity to Ali Pasha of Gusinje. Based on reliable sources. I invite DenisGusinje to find reliable sources and propose change on the talkpage.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:48, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

The Battle of Novsice

Hello !

I feel obligated to inform people that this page contains a lot of incorrect facts.

1.There is no way that Plav and Gusinje forces ( You say Ottoman empire forces, but that's incorrect due to the fact that there were no Ottoman soldiers there, just people of Plav and Gusinje) had up to 15,000 forces.I would like to get a source from that. My source for numbers on this battle is book called Istorijski leksikon Crne Gore which was written by Zivko Andrijasevic, Serbo Rastorder, Dragutin Popovic, Slobodan Drobnjak, etc.. all of them prominent historians from Montenegro.

They say on page no.127 of their first book ( Istorijski leksikon Crne Gore 1 ) that Plav and Gusinje forces had 1500 soldiers and were helped by 600 Rugova Albanian tribe.

Montenegrin forces had between 4000 - 4500 soldiers.

All of this is found on page 127 in their book.

2.The casualties are false.The previous author of article gives incorrect numbers about casualties.Montenegrin side didn't had 109 killed and 115 wounded ( almost exact number were used by Montenegrin commanders to inform King Nicholas I about low casualties ) but in a matter of fact, there were 500-700 killed on Montenegrin side and 300-400 killed and wounded on Plav and Gusinje side.

I am quoting the text from my source - Istorijski leksikon Crne Gore page 128

Wishing to hide the big defeat, Montenegrin government said that Montenegrin dead toll was 85 and 107 wounded and that Albanian side ( Plav and Gusinje side ) had 1000 dead and wounded.

Antidiskriminator is using these numbers, but they are false.

3.Ali pasha was not Albanian.He was born Bosniak to Bosniak family.

His surname was Sabanagic which is not Albanian surname.Albanian surnames don't end with -ic ( Those whom I am sending this message will understand, because we have similar language ). — Preceding unsigned comment added by DenisGusinje (talk • contribs) 10:18, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

You are trying to make sound Plav and Gusinje like a separate entity, moreover mention them as Bosniaks. Like some Bosnian poeple happened to declare war to the Montenegrins. The ethnic composition of that time cannot be seen based on what is today. If the so called Bosniaks are majority today, does not mean there were back then. While clans like Mulliqi (Mullic), Murriqi (Murric), Ljlajic (Jahja) were mentioned as Albanians, though today they most of them declare themselves as Bosninans.

You are trying to remove the article out of its context. The context is called League of Prizren. And there were Bosnians/Muslims that participated in the League for sure. But you cannot just shift the article like that.

If you have a source, there are plenty of others that say the contrary. I have a book too. "The scrible" - dating 1881. 3,000 pages. It has a detailed article on the hostilities in Gusinje and it describes the situation.

The theory that Ali Pasha of Gusinje was Bosnian or Boasniak are ludicrous. Just because the Bosnians and some sources mention him as Shabanagic, doesn't make him Bosnian. Moreover, his affiliation with the League of Prizren is very clear.

And something about the Bosnian entity. What does it mean Bosnian in Gusinje, or Plav? What did it mean back then? Technically, people that you try to mark as Bosnians are Serbian speaking Muslims. Substantially, Serbians that converted to Islam, and Albanians that were slavicized later (post 1912). So why Bosnians? Where is Bosnia, where is Gusinje? So the word Muslim is more appropriate that Bosnian.

Do not take it personal. There are things I don't like in the article either. But you can't just go and remove all content. There was a lot of work before reaching the status the article has today. There are a lot of other topics you can contribute.

You have been already warned in you talk page by more than one user on this topic. I never have taken any user to the incident board, but you have continue like this you will end up there.

Mondiad (talk) 12:39, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Thanks for bringing sources to support your edits.

1. Ottoman Empire or Plav and Gusinje? Plav and Gusinje was not a state. All sources agree that Plav and Gusinje belonged to the Ottoman Empire and forces that attacked Montenegrin army were struggling to preserve Ottoman suzerainty over Plav and Gusinje.
2. Casualties: If you found one source which presents completely different figures in comparison to the figures presented by all other sources, that does not mean that all other sources are wrong and should be removed from the article, contrary to objections of multiple other editors. It is necessary to reach consensus and give due weight to each point of view.
3. Ethnicity of Ali-Pasha is disputed. That is why you have a point here and why it is wrong to refer to Ali Pasha as Albanian kaymakam. He was actually Ottoman kaymakam. It would be difficult to present correct ethnicity in his case. I don't think is necessary or relevant for this article. Albanian sources consider him as ethnic Albanian, Muslim/Bosniak sources consider him ethnic Muslim/Bosniak while Serbian sources consider all of them as Islamized or Albanized Serbs who mixed with Turks, Vlachs, Albanians and many other nations. I think ethnicity discussion should be left out of this article and elaborated in the article about Ali Pasha of Gusinje.

DenisGusinje, I took a very good care to present points of view of all sides (Montenegrin/Muslim/Albanian) and I think I did a very good job. For instance, take a look at this paragraph:

"The Montenegrin side emphasized that Muhtar Pasha secretly commanded pro-Ottoman forces which included many regular Ottoman soldiers (nizams) disguised as irregulars by wearing Albanian costumes. They also emphasized that pro-Ottoman irregulars were commanded by the officers of the regular Ottoman army who extensively used bugles during the battle, which did not exist in Albanian military tradition. The Albanian sources on this battle over-emphasized participation of Albanians in it without mentioning many non-Albanian Muslims that participated on the pro-Ottoman side. On the other hand, the Muslims from Plav and Gusinje do not even mention Prizren league in their traditional epic poetry on this battle, but only different tribes and their thirty bayraktars with Albanian language being mother tongue of three out of thirty bayraktars."

Again, thanks for bringing this source but please don't remove sourced text from this article contrary to objection of multiple editors, before you reach consensus at talkpage first. Please be so kind to propose changes here. I don't want to comunicate with you over e-mail about this because I want our communication to remain transparent. All the best. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:10, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Mondiad, DenisGusinje are obviously newcomer and their edits should be perceived as such. What you did with this edit (diff) is in my book equally disruptive and can be considered as violation of WP:CANVASS. Additionally, with this edit you indicated that there is "we" party which is struggling for certain point of view against "neighborhood", which can be also perceived as potential tag teaming.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:24, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

There's no WP:CANVASS at all. I am busy with other articles and I cannot run after Denis to clean up each time. I left a message (in English) so the user can keep an eye on the article. Your talk page and that of Greek wikipedians, i.e. Alexikoua which you know very well have plenty of messages like these. That doesn't matter? Don't start again with these WPs. When I do something the others are not doing then let me know.Mondiad (talk) 19:16, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

DenisGusinje has at times related personal knowledge from the area. That's fine, but for those changes to occur he would need to bring many peer reviewed sources here so as call for change and actually make them (see: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. Regarding Bosniak identity in the area, many people in Gusinje today who declare themselves as Bosniaks but are bilingual in Albanian also. The region has a complicated history and there has been much intermarriage between the two groups and intertwined identities. A similar example is the Albanian speakers of the Sandzhak region, in particular the Peshter region. They know they are of Albanian heritage and the elderly speak Albanian, but due to intermarriage and not having problems with the authorities they now espouse a Bosnian identity (see: Bosniaks of Serbia. Regarding one of your sources from the Rastoder book, put the paragraph here and a translation (i can read serbian, but for the other editors) and then things can proceed from there.Resnjari (talk) 15:16, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Reply here ( Because I do not know how to use it correctly )

To : Mondiad, or whatever your name is, I am not trying to say that Albanians were not in this battle, I am helpful to Albanians that they helped Plav and Gusinje in this battle.

I am not Bosnian nationalist, neither Bosniak nationalist, but it seems you have problem with those two terms.Bosnian and Bosniak are two different things.

To antidiskriminator-

Why you, then, dont cited these facts I gave you, which are supported by far better historians.These facts I gave you are teached in Montenegro as a history lesson trough the whole country.

There is no way that pro-Ottoman forces, as you call them, had 15,000 soldiers.Literally, no f* way.

You cited some Montenegrin sources.Khm, those same Montenegrins tried to manipulate the public by saying there were 5 times less casualties then there actually was.

Are you gonna trust some or are you gonna trust the group of 10+ Montenegrin historians ( some of them are winners of highest national award in that area - Oktoih ) ?

To both of you :

I am gonna edit this article as long as I am alive, because I will not let someone to manipulate my history.Everybody in Gusinje ( IN THAT SAME GUSINJE, WHERE BATTLE TOOK PLACE ) know these facts.The same facts I am trying to teach you in here.

If this was some battle in WWII,or Vietnam war or Punic - War, I would not care, but this is battle in which my people won and everybody knows it.I will not let someone from Serbia or some parts of Montenegro to teach me what happened couple of miles from the place where my origin is.That's my duty.

I am a history geek.I am approaching this subject with two goals.

1.To teach you not to make false statements 2.To tell the world about this battle.Well , not world, but at least people from Montenegro.

Regarding Ali-Pasha

Ali Pasha was born to Djul-Beg Sabanagic ( -ic ) and mother from Cekic tribe ( -ic ).Ali Pasha was the last one of Sabanagic family name, but Cekic family still exists in Gusinje.100% of them are declaring themselves as Bosniaks.

Ali Pasha was in League of Prizren, that's true, but with one goal, to protect people of Plav and Gusinje, no matter what nationality they were or what religion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DenisGusinje (talk • contribs) 13:41, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

DenisGusinje

1. Why I did not use the source you presented to expand the article? Taking in consideration your behavior here, I think it would be good to verify that the source you presented support what you wrote before it would be eventually used in the article expansion. Since you did not present any links, it takes some time.
2. Number of Pro-Ottoman sources is added based on the sources. I can not present quotes right now, but I will try to find them when I have more time.
3. Yes, I cited Montenegrin sources and tried to carefully attribute cited text to the sources which support it. Montenegro is very small and scarcely populated. I think there is an evidence about every soldier who died in this battle. The tribes they belonged erected monuments to commemorate their death. In Kuči and Bratonožići the monument lists 46 died Montenegrin soldiers (link). Two battalions of Kuči and Bratonožići tribes were under direct command of Miljanov and suffered most of the casualties. I am certain that you would agree that if a single soldier from Kuči or Bratonožići would be left out from this list, there would be a very big problem. Now, you say that casualties were 5 times bigger. That is exceptional claim which requires exceptional sources. The source you presented might be exceptional, but it is necessary to verify what it really says.

All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:27, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Robert Elsie describes Ali Pasha of Gucia as an Albanian nationalist, coming from Shabanagaj family. In Serbian that would be Shabanagic. That doesn't mean he was a Bosniak though, plenty of Albanians had slavicised names. Yes, their families became more and more slavicised. So did the family of Jakup Ferri and that doesn't end with "ic", does it? Or would you say that Jakup Ferri sounds Bosnian? Anyways they have started to forget Albanian by now, and they are becoming slavicised, because there are no Albanian schools allowed in the area (they were never allowed). In any case please bring as strong a source to counter the fact that he ws Albanian. We can say that his ethnicity is disputed. I have a different idea, but Wikipedia works with sources, not my (or your) opinions. --Perballojmearmiqte (talk) 14:17, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Interesting position about Slavicisation. Who forced Ali Pasha to Slavicise his name? Turks? Albanians? Do they really more and more slavicised names of their fellow Albanians and Turks and if they really did, what were their motives?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:38, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

We do not know what form Ali of Gusinje used for himself. There are Slavic versions of his name and then there are Albanian ones with the suffix aj. In this region speakers from both groups have hybrid surnames. A notable example is Albanian academic Jashar Rexhepagiqi [2] from Plav. His surname has the Albanianized version of the slavic ić to iq while after that having the Albanian suffix i (meaning belonging to a certain ancestor) as well. But one must note that Slavisation of surnames has occurred. In Prespa Albanians where made to take on the Macedonian ski at the end of their surnames. My grandfather when living there repeatedly tried to change it with authorities refusing. Some have kept it due to the hassle of changing documents and having migrated oversees. I changed it as i am not burdened with that baggage. It happened.Resnjari (talk) 15:12, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

How many Albanians have Shabanagaj family name? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:01, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

There will be elections next year or 2017 if I am not wrong. The Central Elections Committee of AL publishes the voters' lists online with a search engine. Until then, hard to tell. I got a question for you though: How many people in Serbia are named Millos Kopilic? Mondiad (talk) 15:38, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

That still would not determine if a person is one ethnicity or the other. In Macedonia, there are still Albanians who have ovski at the end of their surname. They have not changed it due to administrative cost and documentation hassles. Some are my relatives. My own parents here in Australia still have their surnames ending with ovski/ovska. I changed mine as i would not have Tito from the grave have the last laugh. In Montenegro too many Albanians have Slavic suffixes at the end of their surname like in the Tuzi or Ulcinj area. Its tricky, especially in the Gusinje/Plav region where some number of self identifying Bosniaks today are either bilingual in Albanian or their parents and grandparents. In the Shkoder area of Albania, some inhabtiants of Gusinje migrated after WW1 and founded a town called Gucië e Re [3]. They speak only Albanian. Due to what happened in 1912-1913 in the area when Montenegrin forces forced converted Muslims there to Orthodoxy(though most alter reverted after the Great powers made Montenegro undo those actions) and burned down villages like Novsice or Nokshiq (of which all its inhabitants fled to Peja, Kosova with many bearing the village name as a surname today), a lot shifts regarding language and identity have been occurring. Thus things like what names are used and drawing conclusions from that and so on are problematic to say the least.Resnjari (talk) 16:24, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Muslim Albanian People in Kosovo, Albania and Macedonia have it. It is a compound of the Muslim name Shaban and the honorific title Aga with the suffix aj indicating belonging to in Albanian. Haviong aga at the end of a surname though is not common as not everyone's ancestors amongst Muslim Albanians were higher ups in the Ottoman adminstration. Its the same with the word Hadži. Most Serbs don't have but some do as their ancestors made the trip to Jerusalem.Resnjari (talk) 12:32, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

So no answer to my straightforward question how many Albanians have Shabanagaj family name. Its easy to google it and you know very well that answer is around zero. Your hipothesis about poor Shabanagaj family members who were highly ranked Ottoman officials for centuries and were forced to have Slavic surname for centuries, although they were Albanians, makes no sense. Anyway, I hope it can be concluded not to emphasize ethnicity of Šabanagović, but to leave it for the article on him? Resnjari? Mondiad? DenisGusinje?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:15, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Even if there is no one, that doesn't make Shabanagaj Bosnian or Bosniak. That's ridiculous, really. Especially considering that Bosnian back then meant a regional-geographical affiliation more that ethnic. Serbian (Orthodox) Bosnians , Croatian (Catholic) Bosnians who converted to Islam. Where is Gusinje and where is Bosnia.

There is no one with the last name Thopia or Reres, or even Konica nowadays in Albania. So? Weren't they Albanians back then?

The histography of Yugoslavia pushed in annihilating anything related to the League of Prizren, trying to show them as pro-Ottoman muslims. You're supposed to be the anti-discriminator.

And you did not answer my question, how many people in Serbia are name Millosh Kopili(c)?Mondiad (talk) 20:25, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

"Shabanaga" - Google hits 41,200. [4] Mondiad (talk) 20:28, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

"Shabanaga" ≠ "Shabanagaj". Reres, Thopia,.. are irrelevant for this article. Multiple editors presented their opinion that Šabanagović is Slavicised Shabanagaj, but failed to support their position with sources or any rational explanation.

Will you reply to my simple straightforward question? Do you agree to leave this ethnicity of Šabanagović out of this article? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:00, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

For me, as Gusinje town and its inhabitants have gone between identities, we could have in the article the compromise Shabanaga as it would be in the Ottoman Turkish and also as they where citizens of that state. Nonethleless regarding the era, Albanians who fought during that time would have known the person as Shabanagaj and Muslim Bosniaks as Sabanagic. And one is yet to know what he called himself.Resnjari (talk) 13:01, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

It's me again

Regarding the territorial status of Plav and Gusinje, after his battle, the Ottoman empire had no influence in Gusinje and they were ruled by themselves until 1912, when Montenegrin army annexed Gusinje, killed some champions of this battle and their sons and converted the entire population of Plav and Gusinje to Orthodox Christianity.Some time later, after european states pushed Nicholas I to declare freedom of religion, 99,99% of Plav and Gusinje returned to Islam.

I am teaching you, guys.

Then, you are not mentioning the story of how Marko Miljanov ( Mark Milani ) saved himself ? Gusinje and Plav people saved in their tradition the story that Marko Miljanov saved himself by grabbing the tail of his horse while escaping trough Lim river.

Antidiskiminator, you say that there was a mockery song made by Pro-Ottoman forces.Yes there was, it was just made by Plav and Gusinje people.Want me to teach you that song, so you can make this article richer  ?

Plav se sprda sa sedmoro brda Plav is mocking the hill tribes of Montenegro a Gusinje sa knjazem na Cetinje and Gusinje with knjaz at Cetinje

I will let you, personally put this, or I will do it.You can check this song too, I am bad with wikipedia rules, because I am a new member.

Forgive me if I do not reply you in right section, I am an amateur in this.Forgive me my grammar mistakes,which I believe are little or negligible, english language is my 2nd tongue.

Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by DenisGusinje (talk • contribs) 13:50, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

You can edit the article as long as you are alive, but keep in mind this is just an wikipedia article. This is not an encyclopedia from any Academy of Science. So, take a short pause and relax. Not everything is precise for sure. Whatever we write here does not change what really happened. But consensus is needed, otherwise all of us loose time.

Once again, do not base an article of 1878 on the ethnic composition of today.Mondiad (talk) 13:56, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Re mockery song, its text is in the quote. Check the citation num 29.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:41, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Actually accuracy is needed as Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. There are guidelines and that peer reviewed sources are to guide the content of a article. DenisGusinje would need to bring peer reviewed sources to make the changes he wants. I could write a whole article based on personal knowledge of the Prespa region. But other editors would say you need peer resource for that to stand. As many a Greek editor has said to Albanian editors in the past. Thus Wikipedia must be held to that high standard otherwise anything goes.Resnjari (talk) 15:12, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Denis again

I suggest you to read Istorijski leksikon Crne Gore broj 1, which states what happened in this battle.

About the Albanian ethnicity of Ali Pasha, I will give you an example.

Rexho Mulliqi is my ancestor, on my mothers side.He was born Mulic family, a prominent Bosniak family from Gusinje, back in that time Rexho, or Redzo - the name he was born with, was a composer for Kosovar composer.

It says that he is Albanian but I know he was not, because my mother is from that family and she is not Albanian, neither she or her parents and her grandparents spoke albanian language .

Albanians have a thing to think everybody around them is Albanian.

The Redzo Mulic case is an example.

About those sources link you are talking about - I am not wikipedia expert and I do not know how to put them.I told you the name of the book which was accepted by state of Montenegro and had financial support by the state of Montenegro. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DenisGusinje (talk • contribs) 16:08, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the source DenisGusinje. The source you prented was compilation of texts written by several different authors and edited by two Montenegrin historians (Šerbo Rastoder, Živko Andrijašević). I tried to find online version, but failed. Can you please clarify who is author of the part you referred to (part I, page 127)?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:22, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Allright, I was asked to provide a source for military strength and casualties of this battle.Due to the fact, that most of us here understand serbian language ( I speak similar language, but let's say serbian ) I will write the complete text in serbian language.

Istorijski Leksikon Crne Gore no 1 ( A - Crn )

Izdavac /Publisher : Daily Press - Vijesti

Urednici / Editors : Prof.dr Serbo Rastoder

                    dr Zivko M. Andrijesevic

Autori / Authors : Prof.dr Serbo Rastoder,dr Zivko M. Andrijasevic, Dragutin Popovic, mr Zvezdan Folic, Sait Sabovic, Slobodan Drobnjak, Jadranka Selhanovic, Zeljko Drincic and Adnan Prekic

Lektor / Lector : Zuvdija Hodzic

ISBN 86-7706-165-7

Allright, those were the informations about the book, to see that I am not lying about the book.

So, on pages 127-128 it states :

Bitka na Novsicu

Vidjevsi da, uprkos odluci velikih sila na Berlinskom kongresu, Plav i Gusinje ne moze dobiti diplomatskim putem, knjaz Nikola je septembra 1879 godine, odlucio da ih dobije vojnickim putem.Tako su u pravcu Plava i Gusinja upuceni bataljoni iz Vasojevica, Kuca, Morace, Bjelopavlica, Bratonozica i Rovaca ). Knjaz Nikola je za komandanta ovog napada postavio vojvodu Marka Miljanova Popovica.Smatra se da su snage crnogorske vojske bile jacine od 4000-4500 vojnika.Na suprotnoj strani stajale su snage plavsko-gusinjskih muslimana u jacini od 1500 ljudi, kojima je u pomoc priteklo i 600 Rugovaca, mada neki istoricari tvrde da su albanske snage bile brojnije.Crnogorska vojska je, krajem oktobra i pocetkom novembra 1879 godine, uspjela da zauzme dvije kraule kod sela Pepica i Gornje Rzanice.Do sukoba vecih razmjera doslo je 4.10.1879 godine kada je jaci odred Albanaca uspio da protjera crnogorsku vojsku iz sela Velike.U protiv napadu koji je uslijedio, Todor Vukov i Marko Miljanov Popovic su sa svojim odredima nepromisljeno usli duboko u albanske polozaje.Ubrzo su Albanci napali sa bokova i ledja crnogorsku vojsku, a sukob se vodio u kotlini sela Novsice.Tek kada su uvece stigli u pomoc moracki i rovacki bataljon, probijen je albanski obruc sto je desetkovanim snagama Marka Miljanova Popovica i Todora Vukovica omogucilo da se povuku. Zeleci da prikrije svoj vojni neuspjeh, crnogorska vlada je iznjela podatke o 85 poginulih i 107 ranjenin Crnogoraca, dok su albanski i plavsko-gusinjski gubici iznosili 1000 poginulih i ranjenih.Istoricari smatraju da su Crnogorci u ovom sukobu imali 500 do 700 poginulih a protivnicka strana 300 - 400 poginulih i ranjenih.

This is whole text regarding this battle.

As you can see, there are a lot of contradictions to the previous article.This text supports what people of Plav and Gusinje are saying about this battle.

I would like the page to be updated to this facts, because this is accepted by Montenegrin state and people of Plav and Gusinje which is more reliable then other sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DenisGusinje (talk • contribs) 16:25, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks DenisGusinje.

• The source does not clearly support your repeated claims and text you added to the article. You insisted (diff) that
  • number of pro-Ottoman forces was "1,500 — 2,100" while the quote you presented clearly says: "snage plavsko-gusinjskih muslimana u jacini od 1500 ljudi, kojima je u pomoc priteklo i 600 Rugovaca, mada neki istoricari tvrde da su albanske snage bile brojnije." [forces of Plav-Gusinje muslims had 1500 men, supported by 600 men from Rugova region, although some historians emphasize that Albanian forces were more numerous] You misinterpreted the source to minimize number of pro-Ottoman forces and failed to mention that many historians believe that number of Albanians was estimated to be higher
  • number of Montenegrin casualties was "500-700 killed and 500 wounded, 1000-1200 total" while the quote you presented clearly says:"Zeleci da prikrije svoj vojni neuspjeh, crnogorska vlada je iznjela podatke o 85 poginulih i 107 ranjenin Crnogoraca, dok su albanski i plavsko-gusinjski gubici iznosili 1000 poginulih i ranjenih.Istoricari smatraju da su Crnogorci u ovom sukobu imali 500 do 700 poginulih a protivnicka strana 300 - 400 poginulih i ranjenih." ["Montenegrin government wanted to conceal its military failure and presented data about 85 dead and 107 wounded Montenegrins, while Albanian and Plav-Gusinje losses were 1000 dead and wounded. Historians believe that Montenegrins had 500 to 700 dead and their enemy side 300-400 dead and wounded."] - The quote you presented explains what Montenegrin government said and what some historians said, without taking sides. The quote does not clearly explain what historians say there were 1000 Montenegrin casualties. On wikipedia it is necessary to carefully attribute assertions to its source. That is why it is necessary to present author of this part of the book you used and sources for his claim. I.e. who are those historians who belived that Montenegrin casualties were 1000-1200 total. Will you please be so kind to reply to the below questions:

1. who is author of the part you referred to (part I, page 127)
2. What sources author of this text cited (who are those historians)?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:16, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Due to the fact that I read the book long time ago, I was thinking that it said that Montenegrins suffered 500 wounded, too.A honest mistake by my side.

These authors I am talking about are

Šerbo Rastoder - President of the National Council of Montenegro.

Zivko Andrijasevic - prominent Montenegrin historian

I know Serbo Rastoder personally and I was with him and Zivko Andrijasevic couple of years ago in Gusinje, on one seminar about Plav and Gusinje history.They are the one who wrote those facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DenisGusinje (talk • contribs) 18:25, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Please check the book and try to reply to my above two straightforward questions. Text can not have two authors. Otherwise problems may arise (link).--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:46, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

DenisGusinje, can you present an answer to my above straightforward question?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:17, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Them two are the authors of that text.With folk story about the battle from people of Gusinje, documented texts from that time and textures of Montenegrin military operations they have concluded that those facts are, indeed, the closest.

Ok, suppose two of them are authors (although it is impossible) but please be so kind to clarify what sources they cited (who are those historians who think that number of Montenegrin casualties was much higher)?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:25, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

As I said, sources are Gusinje people who pass that from generation to generation, documented textures from Gusinje and documented textures from Montenegrin army military operations.

I don't believe there are no objective historians who think Plav and Gusinje had 15,000 forces.That is not possible.Do you think that force of 15,000 would be able to kill just 500 - 700 Montenegrins on open field, outnumbering them 3-1?

I am telling you what is teached in Montenegro as a facts and what Plav and Gusinje people know.You can't cite someone else if state of Montenegro approved the book and those facts are in history books in educational system. DenisGusinje (talk) 22:37, 13 October 2015 (UTC)DenisDenisGusinje (talk) 22:37, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Dear DenisGusinje,

1. Regarding number of the pro-Ottoman forces, some sources say that they had 10,000 men while some say there were 15,000 of them. I found one source that support your 2,100 figure and I will soon add it to the article.
2. Regarding casualties, don't forget that 3:1 ratio is not important in this case because on one side was professional Montenegrin army while on other side was mainly bashibozuk. I don't say that the quote you brought here is incorrect. I actually think that it should be used in the article, but preferrably after clarification who is the author of the quote you brought here and what historians they had in mind. All the best --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:32, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

First I want to apologize to you for insulting you at my first edit.Not professional and not ethic.Please accept my apology.I was frustrated.Thank you for supporting my side for number of Plav and Gusinje forces, but I can not agree with you that Montenegrin army was extremely superior against Plav and Gusinje people.They were raised by guns and rifles, the same way as Montenegrins.

I told you who wrote that those forces and casualties numbers ( Serbo Rastoder and Zivko Andrijasevic ,mostly ) but I am unable to tell you the exact name of a historian they had in mind or name of a texture, but for sure I can say that, at least, folk tradition of people of Plav and Gusinje are approving those forces and casualties numbers.

If I find out anything that is related to that, I would gladly let you know.

Regards DenisGusinje (talk) 10:33, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Jakup Ferri

The Serbian historiography adds a ić at the end of their names and oops, they become Bosnian. You extensively use Serbian sources which can't be the most NPV in this case. By "in this case" I mean their ethnicity. Jakup Ferri was Albanian. If some descendants of him in Plava claim to be Bosnians today, it's their choice. The villagers of Negovan and Belkameni in Florina affiliate as Greeks now, that doesn't make Papa Kristo Negovani or Spiro Bellkameni Greek.

Jakup Ferri's nephews were members of Balli Kombetar, that's why J.Ferri the only one not decorated as "Honor of the Nation", with clear instructions of Mehmet Shehu.

Pra juve a do të na ndihmoni ? Neve kemi besim se po,se jemi të një fisi,të një gjaku arbanas,të nji vllaznie. - "So, are you going to help us? We believe yes, we are the same blood, Arbanas, same brotherhood." - his words in the meeting with Gashi-Krasniqe tribesmen.( Elmaz B Plava; Marenglen Verli, "Plava e Gucia në lëvizjen kombëtare shqiptare : kujtime dhe dokumente historike", Marin Barleti, 1995, p.56, OCLC 37228348)

E ti shpirtmadhi Jakup Ferri,qe na le ate nam e jehonë për me shpetue këte vatan e sibijan,do të jesh i paharruar për të gjithë brezat e arbnisë "Eh you big hearted Jakup Ferri, who left us the echo calling to save this motherland and sibijan (turkish word?), will never be forgotten in the generations of Arberia" - words of Ali Pasha Gucia at Ferri's funeral. (ibid)

Mondiad (talk) 21:07, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

"Me t'kallxu, hej bablok, t'vjen seri,

tridhet' kren', paj, i ka xan' ni nieri,

35 n'veç për emën, i thon' Jakup Ferri,

me t'kallxue nuk di pa tefteri,

pa tefteri-o nuk di me t'kallxua,

katër kren', mor, po i ka xerr' ni grúa,

motra e Zhujit, paj, kish qillua, ..." - Folkloric song. Mondiad (talk) 21:13, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

His son Hasan Ferri participated in the League of Peja, and League of Junik of 1912.

His nephew, Shemsi Ferri, Balli Kombetar activist, participant in the "Kuvendi i Dobërdollit" (Doberdoll Meeting of Albanian guerrillas in Kosovo 1945, Doberdoll - today's FYROM) committed suicide for not being captured alive in 1945 by the Partisans, together with Riza Ferri. Rustem Ferri killed in skirmish, Hilmi Ferri arrested and imprisoned. All Balli Kombetar activists.

Picture of Hasan Ferri and family memberes: [5], [6] Hasan Ferri (centered, seated) with Omer Ferri, Emin Ferri, Agan Ferri, Mehdi Ferri. Mondiad (talk) 21:33, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Hold your horses Mondiad. You made your point. Jakup's nephews and some of his descendants decided to declare Albanian ethnicity. There are no Albanized Slavs, only Slavicized Albanians. Everybody are Albanians. Is that really important? This is article about 1879 battle between Montenegro and pro-Ottoman irregulars for gods' sake. Relax. Try to forget about Greeks, at least when you write comments here. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:51, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Have you ever tried to find out how many people have Ferović surname? Have you ever tried to find out how many Serbian language epic poems mention Jakub Ferović? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:09, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Plenty of people named Ferri. Even Jakup Ferri if you want. Mondiad (talk) 22:52, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

DenisGusinje (talk) 22:19, 13 October 2015 (UTC)DenisDenisGusinje (talk) 22:19, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Ignoring the question is indication of tendentious editing. Similar to above dishonest attempt to present Shabanaga instead of Shabanagaj. That is your choice. This is my last comment to you in this discussion. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:12, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Jakup Ferri is Jakup Ferovic.I am from Gusinje and I should now better.There is not Ferri surname in Gusinje, but there are a lot of Ferovic people who speak Bosnian language and are Bosniaks.

Really, you are from Gusinje and you know better? The problem is that the photo from 1900 tells a different story. See the link above.Mondiad (talk) 22:37, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I know that photo, they were wearing a plis as a lot of people from Gusinje did, but that doesn't make them Albanian.

they were wearing a plis as a lot of people from Gusinje did, but that doesn't make them Albanian. - it made them back then. The ethnic composition has changed since then. Edhit Durham has elaborated this clearly. All old photos push to the same stream. This Bosnian affiliation started after 1919 and is going on still today. Not that we can make anything to change it, but we have to admit it. Mondiad (talk) 22:55, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

They were not.When Jovan Ducic visited Gusinje, he stated that Gusinje has above 6,000 population of mostly Bosnian ( NOT ALBANIAN ) speaking population.

The names of Balli Kombetar fighters you are talking about, I could not find on web.And how many Albanian people you know with first name as Jakub, Emin, Rustem, Omer ? Probably small amount.

A lof of Bosniaks have that name. DenisGusinje (talk) 23:03, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

There is no Ferri surname in Plav/Gusinje, only Ferovic as he was.You can think whatever you want.Ferovic people in Plav and Gusinje are Bosniaks.

About how they look, my great grandfather was wearing the same plis and he was not Albanian.It was just a custom to wear it. DenisGusinje (talk) 22:50, 13 October 2015 (UTC)DenisDenisGusinje (talk) 22:50, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't want to discuss this theme.As I said, Rexho Mulliqi was MY ANCESTOR on my mothers side.They are NOT Albanians.They don't speak Albanian.In a matter of fact, Kosovar Albanians offered my mother's family to name a school in Kosovo Rexho Mulliqi but my mothers family insisted on Redzo Mulic.Albanians refused.

If my mothers family is Albanian, why would they reject such an offer ?

Albanians are thinking everybody around them is Albanian.I am not Albanian.And you can do whatever you want, I will not feel like an Albanian.Neither did them.

Bosniaks don't have a problem with that.Not everybody around Bosniaks are Bosniaks like you Albanians think.

Thanks DenisGusinje. Тhere are plenty of sources that Ferović surname was not Albanian:

• Brastvo. Društvo sv. Save. 1939. p. 121. У Плаву чувене су куће мухамеданских Срба: Медуњана, Шеовића, Луковића, Шабовића или Феровића.
• Ferovići su ogranak Šabovića, iz plemena su Kuč, predak Jakup Ferov Šabović, se prozvao Jakup Ferović koji je poginuo u bitci na Noksiću 1879 godine. Islamske su vjere.
• Glasnik Srpskog istorijsko-kulturnog društva "Njegoš". Njegoš. 1959. p. 45. ... Медо и Асо Феровићи, старином Кучи,...--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:36, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Any other sources but Serbian language one? His nephews were members of Balli Kombetar, you keep talking. The pic from 1900 shows them clearly. League of Junik, etc.Mondiad (talk) 22:49, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Jakup's nephews and some of his descendants decided to declare Albanian ethnicity. How many times are you going to repeat it? The burden is on you. Can you bring some reliable sources for you position about Ferović, not about his nephews or some of his descendants.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:09, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I would not agree on fact that they were Serbs, but Montenegrin, and I would not agree that all of them were orthodox.

For example, a lot of families in Gusinje are of Turkish origin.One of them is Medunjani ( Medunjanin ).Some of them were Orthodox but some of them are Turks who changed their last name.

But the point is that Ferovic, and in my case - Redzo Mulic, are not Albanians. DenisGusinje (talk) 22:40, 13 October 2015 (UTC)DenisDenisGusinje (talk) 22:40, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

If you are related to Rexho, that is another reason why you shouldn't edit the article. Family or next of kin are biased for many reasons.

Anyway, keep in mind that Rexho has a son with Pagarusha, who of course affiliates as Albanian. If he starts to edit the article as you do (he is closer to Rexho than you are), where will it end?

Kosovar Albanians offered my mother's family to name a school in Kosovo Rexho Mulliqi but my mothers family insisted on Redzo Mulic.Albanians refused. - why would they come and ask permission in Gusinje how to name a school in Kosovo? Understand what you are saying? Rexho Mulliqi used Redzo Mulic as well, especially in early years. But most of his signatures state "Rexhep Mulliqi". That's documented since he worked for RTK many years.

And your mother's family claim to be Bosnians, I have no problem with that. Totally fine. Done.

One more interesting thing, these Mulic, Muric, Popalj, Ljajic when they come to US get in touch withe the many Plav-Guci organizations here (google "Malesia" organizations in US) and they show up as Mulliqi, Murriqi, Popaj, Jahja, etc. Strange isn't it? Mondiad (talk) 22:37, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

You grew up as Bosnian. You are told that you are Bosnian. You want to be Bosnian. Fine. Hasan Ferri in the picture apparently did not. Mondiad (talk) 22:37, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I am not Bosnian.I am Bosniak.I was not told to be Bosniak, I was born like Bosniak.I know the language, the tradition, I am a muslim and I know my folk costume.

On Redzo's grave it cleary says Redzo Mulic.Redzo married Albanian woman, and they lived in Kosovo.It's naturally for his son to feel like an Albanian when you force people around you to be like that.

They asked my mothers family ( Redzo is brother of great- grandfather on mothers side ) to change it because they need an approval.

They don't need an approval from Montenegro to name a school in Kosovo? What are you talking about? Moreover, even if they wanted to name a school after let's say Radovan Karadžić, they would name it "Radovan Karaxhiq", in Albanian alphabet. Just an example, to be clear. Mondiad (talk) 23:05, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, they don't need an approval from Montenegro, but from Redzo's family.They asked my mothers family to name it like that and they didn't agreed.Albanians respected that.You can't name a school with my name if I don't want it, or my family if I am dead.Simple. But that's not the point.The point is that he was not Albanian.Man, come on, I would know if they were Albanian, I share their blood.I would know if my mothers is Albanian or not. DenisGusinje (talk) 23:14, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

On his grave it says Redzo Mulic.His uncle of my grandpa.My grandpa never mentioned him as a Albanian.He was a Bosniak born to Bosniak family.That's it.

You have no right to say something he was not.You can not say to me that I am Norwegian because you think I am.I know what my family is.Clearly, not Albanian.

Don't take this personally,I love Albanians but I would not let someone to assimilate me.

Regards DenisGusinje (talk) 22:50, 13 October 2015 (UTC)DenisDenisGusinje (talk) 22:50, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

As a start, I did not say it. Elsie says it. But Elsie can be wrong. Why should I believe you more than his son? Like it is natural for his Bosniak (Muslim) son to feel Albanian as you state, it is natural for all Ferri (what is left after 1945) to feel Bosnian (Muslim). Understand that you're saying the same thing here? Why Rexho would be pressured to be declared as Albanian and sign as "Rexhep Mulliqi", while the Ferri people in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia would not be pressured to not-declare as Albanians?

I am not discussing your ethnicity here, but Jakup Ferri's. At least you accept that you have seen the photoMondiad (talk) 23:00, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Jakup Ferovic on battle of Novsice said :

Ko je Turcin na srdascu svome, te je njega rodila Turkinja, on ce sjutra Marku udariti, bez izuna (dozvole) naseg komandira, Ko je Turcin, u indat (pomoc) ce doci

Translation:

Who is Turk in his heart, and was born to a Turkish mother, he will strike Marko tomorrow , without permission of our commandant.Who is Turk he will come as help.

If he was Albanian why would he say he is Turk ? Bosniak people were called Turks and they loved Ottoman empire and Turks.Why would Jakup Ferovic say that ?

Case closed.DenisGusinje (talk) 23:07, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Infobox names

All the names listed in the infobox are according to Yugoslav sources, trying to depict them as Bosnians. The most notorious being Jakup Ferri and Rexhepagaj. We should reach a consensus before displaying them, or least both versions for now. Mondiad (talk) 21:41, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

What is wrong with you ? Redzepagic surname is of Turkish origin.They were Turks.They were not Albanians.If one Redzepagic changes his surname to Rexhepagaj, that doesn't make him Albanian.

It's funny, but I am cousins with Redzepagic's.They own a kula ( tower ) in Plav.They are not Albanians, what are you talking about ? They are of Turkish origin. DenisGusinje (talk) 22:58, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

DenisGusinje (talk) 22:19, 13 October 2015 (UTC)DenisDenisGusinje (talk) 22:19, 13 October 2015 (UTC) ] See my reply on that case above.

They're Turkish now? Another theory. Looks like you're a cousin of everybody there by the way. Do you know the people listed below?

Redzepagic vs Rexhepagaj

Shaban Beg Rexhepagaj, exiled, member of the Committee for the National Defence of Kosovo, executed in 1944 by the Yugoslav Partisans while 85 years old.

Hysen Rexhepagaj, member of the Albanian Parliament representing Plave-Gusinje during 1943-1944.[7]

Halil Rexhepagaj and Mak Rexhepagaj, executed in 1945 by the Yugoslav Partisans.[8]

Hakia Rexhepagaj, Balli Kombetar activist, arrested in 1945 and imprisoned for 20 years.

Jusuf Rexhepagaiq, killed in battle in 1945.

Ahmet Rexhepagaj, teacher, was one of the directors of the Albanian school in Plav and Vuthaj.

Emin Rexhepagaj and Butë Smajl Ahmetaj (Rexhepagaj), Balli Kombetar activists, decorated for "Patriotic Activity" by Al.President in 1993. Rose the Albanian flag in Guci in 1941.[9]

Prof. Jashar Rexhepagaj, born in 1929 in Plav. Member of the Kosovo Acedemy of Sciences and Arts.

And Rexhepagaj clan originates from Gruemire, near Shkoder, not Turkey.[10]

Mondiad (talk) 01:07, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Jahja efendi Musić vs Mulla Jaha Musaj

Musaj of Plav-Gusinje, from Nika clan of Kelmendi.[11]

Haxhi Mulla Jaha Musaj, katib of Ali Pasha of Gusinje. Arrested and interned by the Ottomans with other Albanian rebels and exiled in Thesaloniki. Profited by the amnesty later.

Mulla Sado Musaj, son of the above, arrested by the Montenegrins in October 1912 and executed.

There are no Musaj today, neither they were born as Musaj a century ago.Only Albanians were calling them Musaj, instead of Music.That doesn't make them Albanian.You would probably say that I am Albanian too, because you just can do albanisation of my surname.

There are NO Musaj today in Gusinje.They declare themselves as Bosniaks and they are born as Music.DenisGusinje (talk) 10:33, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

No, I do not know them.

If they were at Balli Kombetar unit, that still doesn't make them Albanian.A lot of Gusinje people were in it, but some of them were not Albanian.

You cited Albanians source who claims Redzepagics are Albanian.Not true.

Redzepagics hail from Turkey, when their ancestor - Recep, settled in Plav.

I will not discuss on these time any longer.You are being obnoxious.The moment when I read Mula Jaho Music is Albanian, I was shocked.Looks like you don't have objective approach.Mula Jaho Music was not Albanian.Surname Music is in Plav and rarely in Gusinje.No one of them is Albanian.

I would not really waste my time discussing who do my people people.I will not waste my time trying to teach the Albanian not to think everybody around them is Albanian.

You are citing Albanian sources.Those same Albanians think Bar ( Tivari ) used to be Albanian town.Really, this has no point.

If you said that Redzepagics are Albanians and that Mula Jaho Music and Jakup Ferovic were Albanians, it seems that you have no idea what are you talking about.

Anyway, my word is worth double in this case.I am from that area and I am familiar with who is Albanian and who is not.

Albanians have that thing for us.Just Albanize our last names and you will make us Albanians.

You ignore the fact that all of them were born as Bosniaks and that's what it says on their graves.DenisGusinje (talk) 05:11, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Strange you don't know them since you claim to know everybody in that area!! "Albanians have that thing for us" - Albanians have no thing for you. But if you are Bosnian today, doesn't mean that Jakup Ferri was back then, that's what I am saying.

According to you, nothing has significance. The photos, the white plis they carried, the reports from European travelers, participation in the League of Prizren, League of Peja, League of Junik, Balli Kombetar, anti-communist resistance, participation in the Albanian Parliament 1941-1944, etc, you just avoid them as "so what!". Nothing matters to you. Since you know everybody there personally.

Better not to start with Antivari, I don't think you can handle that discussion. Or you have cousins there too? Mondiad (talk) 05:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I do not have cousins there but some good friends.Gusinje is a small place and my family surname is one of the biggest, so we are cousins with a lot of families, that's not strange.Gusinje has 4000 population, of course I am gonna know majority of them when they all gather in center which is basically two streets.DenisGusinje (talk) 10:33, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

"But if you are Bosnian today, doesn't mean that XYZ was back then, that's what I am saying." You just refuted your position. If some descendants of Redžepagić decided to declare Albanian ethnicity, doesn't mean that Redžepagić made the same decision back then. It is necessary to follow wikipedia rules. It is irrelevant what are they names translated to Albanian. It is relevant what names are used in sources.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:20, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

According to wikipedia rules which you know very well you can't just edit articles because you're form the neighborhood and you know stuff. And the logical deduction you are trying to make above can't make any difference. Jakup Ferri was Albanian, descendants of him in the area today declare as Bosniaks. Both statements can be true without conflicting. The article is for Jakup Ferri (not really, but you get the idea) back then. If it was a article about the Ferovic clan today, it would be another story. There Denis can have a lot to say, even though the justification that "I am from the neighborhood" could be challenge even then. Mondiad (talk) 13:12, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

You again refuted your own position. It is you who insists on Albanian ethnicity that some members of Ferović or Redžepagić families decided to declare after the death of Jakub and Husein. It is you who wants to project it into the past. No doubt that you know that this kind of logical deduction does not correspond to wikipedia rules. Either present honest and fair presentation of all their names used in the sources with conclusion about what is most common name in the sources or drop your "everybody are Albanians" stick. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:15, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Mondiad, please answer on this question.

You have to stop acting like some kind of guru and play with words. I never said that "some members of Ferović or Redžepagić families decided to declare after the death of Jakub and Husein". Jakup and Hysein were Albanians, Hasan Ferri (in the photo) was, members of their clans were up to 1945 just as Jakup or Hysen. What happened later is to be studied, and the results are the ones Denis is mentioning. What is left from their clans declares today as Bosniak. I listed the members for Denis and he says he doesn't know them.

Btw, I have already mentioned, criticizing me won't help you much in becoming an administrator. Mondiad (talk) 14:23, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I gave clear explanation that you should "Either present honest and fair presentation of all their names used in the sources with conclusion about what is most common name in the sources or drop your "everybody are Albanians" stick." You are of course free to disagree, but I don't think you should expect me to be now somehow obliged to keep discussing this with you for as long as you are dissatisfied.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:19, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Ko je Turcin na srdascu svome, te je njega rodila Turkinja, on ce sjutra Marku udariti, bez izuna (dozvole) naseg komandira, Ko je Turcin, u indat (pomoc) ce doci

Translation:

Who is Turk in his heart, and was born to a Turkish mother, he will strike Marko tomorrow , without permission of our commandant.Who is Turk he will come as help.

Albanian who knows Bosniak language ? Albanian who is saying for himself that he is a Turk ?

These are Jakup Ferovic's words.How would someone be able to understand him what he said if majority of Plav and Gusinje forces were not Bosniaks ?

He is saying for himself that he is a Turk, a common word used by Orthodox people for Bosniaks.I don't think Orthodox people were using the same term for Albanians.

I am not here to discuss who converted to which religion and stuff like that, but to prove you that Jakup ( or Jakub - Plav and Gusinje people have that tongue characteristic to change the similar letters, like Jakub to Jakup ( b to p ) was, indeed not Albanian, but Bosniak as his ancestors are now in Plav and Gusinje.

One more thing, for all the other surnames you are citing, most of them were not Albanians, neither do they have family in Plav and Gusinje by that surname.All of them are Bosniaks and they speak Bosniak language.

It's funny how you cite Albanian sources like they are objective 100%.I know that Gusinje and Plav are part of Sqhiperi Etnike and I understand that you want it, but that's just a dream.

DenisGusinje (talk) 10:46, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Leave your nationalistic phrases out of this. "Turk" and "Greek" was a general denomination for classifying Muslim and Orthodox people, not necessary pointing to an ethnicity.

I listed you a bunch of Rexhpeagaj people and you claim you don't know them. The ones from today who claim to be Bosniaks, you know them all. Mondiad (talk) 13:12, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Why are so many leaders at League of Prizren and Ottoman Empire forces? Isn't this strange? Maybe someone is trying to add unimportant figures only to make this battle look more Albanian or more Bosniak. Only Ali Pasha of Gusinje and one or two other figures can stay. From the others only Jakup Ferri is sourced by both Slav and Albanian sources.NobleFrog (talk) 10:53, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Wow. That was fast. No discussion. Only monolog. From maybe to removal of non-Albanian names within one comment. Maybe there are sources which say that those men were military commanders of the pro-Ottoman sources forces? Yes, thats it. Well, if sources say so it is necessary to reach consensus what to do. Removal of the sourced content would be disruptive. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you.Resnjari (talk) 13:01, 14 October 2015 (UTC) An addition here, as the reply was to User:NobleFrog's comments. The main issue here is more about the names than anything else. Slavic scholarly sources use Slavic names for the commanders, while Albanian sources and some English sources use Albanian versions of the names. A comprise solution would be to use Ottoman versions of their names (if out there) as they where Ottoman citizens, due to the fluidity of the population and language of Gusinje town of that time and now.Resnjari (talk) 03:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Don't try to teach me. Instead of that find some reliable sources (read: non Bosniak, Serb or Albanian) about the commanders of the battle and present them here. Also someone is needed to report DenisGusinje. I am not keen on Balkan history and I don't know so much about it but I can see that this discussion is based generally on personal views.NobleFrog (talk) 21:34, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Disputing reliability of the sources based on ethnicity of their authors is... Well, it obvious what it is. You can try to reach consensus for your ethnicity based arguments at wp:rsn. Good luck.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:44, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Anyway i thought i would bring this little snippet about the fluidity of identity amongst Gusinje inhabitants in current times. Dimitrovova, in an article on Slavic Muslims of area and Sandzak gives this anecdote(Dimitrovova, Bohdana. "Bosniak or Muslim? Dilemma of one Nation with two Names." Southeast European Politics 2.2 (2001): 94-108) [12].

I came to Istanbul and people asked me: “Who are you?” “I said, Turčin” (Turk) but they shook their heads: “Eh, you are not. You are Arnaut” (Albanian). So I came to Skadar as Arnautin, however, I was told that I was Bosniak. So, I went to Sarajevo as Bosniak and people around me asked where I am from. I answered:” Bosniak”. They thought I was mad and I was told to be Crnogorac (Montenegrin), but with Islamic religion. Then, in Podgorica one guy told me that I am nothing more then Turčin (Turk). Well, one cannot understand this. Who am I and what am I? Nobody. (p:94)

I was told this story by historian Zuvdija Hodžić during our conversation about current debates on national identification of Muslims-Bosniaks. Hodžić was borne in Gusinje, which is a small town in Sandžak, inhabited by Albanians and Muslims. He is a member of the Almanah group and one of the first initiators of Almanah. The story I was told is from his novel Gusinjska godina (One year in Gusinje), which was published in 1997. Zuvdija Hodžić. Personal interview, 14 April 2001. Podgorica. (p:107)

Something to keep in mind when discussing the wider issues outlined in the article.Resnjari (talk) 04:10, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

You was told that by the Zuvdija Hodzic ? That's clearly not true It's funny how Albanians didn't had problem to tell him that he is Bosniak.

For your information, Hodzic family is originally from Turkey.One of the few families in Gusinje that are of Turkish origin.DenisGusinje (talk) 14:24, 15 October 2015 (UTC) DenisGusinje (talk) 14:24, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

I not told by anyone. I have cited from were the information comes from and have placed a link to the peer reviewed journal article for anyone to read. Those are the reflections of a Gusinje resident. My point by adding that to the conversation is that people from Gusinje have been and are still between identities in the area (past and present). It might not be for all, but it is for some number and that has to be kept in mind regarding the wider dialogue had here. As for the Turkish origin of families, some people like soldiers or imams did marry into the area and they went native long ago and before the 1878 crisis or thereafter. During the 1878 crisis people of the Gusnije/Plav region where either called Albanians or by Slavic authors at least as Slavs. Turk meant Ottoman( and not in an ethnic sense, but Muslim as in religion) and by this time the term Turk had also acquired pejorative connotations also. See article Turco-Albanians for more.Resnjari (talk) 16:48, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, until now you were claiming that Albanian sources were a problem. So why did you change your mind? Why the ethnicity of sources isn't a problem for you now? Because you can't support your imaginations with neutral sources? It is clear you want to include your imagiantion in this article.NobleFrog (talk) 14:10, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect. It was DenisGusinje who discussed Albanian sources and it was you who disputed reliability of the sources, based on the ethnicity of their authors. Don't blame me for your behavior. Go to WP:RSN and put your money where your mouth is. I did not support any of parties here. I don't have anything against addition of Albanianised version of their names if you can prove that they are common names used in sources. I actually insisted on the sources and repeated more than once: "Either present honest and fair presentation of all their names used in the sources with conclusion about what is most common name in the sources or drop your "everybody are Albanians" stick." All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:30, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Albanized names or Slavicized names? Sons and grandsons of Jukup Ferri (Ferovic) and Rexhepagaj (Rexhepagic) participated in many events which supports their Albanian affiliation. From League of Prizren, to Leguae of Junik, Albanian Rebellion of 1912, Balli Kombetar, Second League of Prizren, etc. These are topics which you have a lot of knowledge.

What is left there in Plav are their cousins, Denis knows them, branches of their family who declare themselves as Bosniaks and that's perfectly fine. We should not discuss the ethnic composition of Plav today - there might be another article/section, Ferovic clan of today - it can be another article, or Albanian-Bosniak relations. We are talking about Jakup Ferri and Hasan Ferri back then. And back then this is what they were.[13].

You were the major editor of the article before Denis came by, but you apparently did not mind him removing substantial content, as long as the "Albanian" presence in the article is diminished. So Vojo Kushi wan not Serbian, just because today no one uses the last name Kusic in Albania?Mondiad (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, why do you insist on showing your ignorance? Firstly, I am not pro Albanian or pro Bosniak. Secondly, don't talk to me as you are talking to yourself or anyone else like you.NobleFrog (talk) 15:20, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Names again

Once more, the League of Prizren was an Albanian entity, not Bosnian/Bosniak. The Yugoslav historiography tents to show them with Slavic names. Check the article's Legacy section with a reference from User:Antidiskriminator (Slavic source by the way).

“ the pro-Ottoman forces included many neighbouring Albanian tribes led by their bayraktars. The Krasniqi by Man Avdija, Gashi by Ali-Ibro, tribes from Dukagjini by Mustafa bayraktar, tribes from Peć by Mahmudbegović, from Gjakova by Saitbegović and some by Salih-Agha. ” — Source provided by Antidiskriminator

As you can see even the voluntaries from other Albanian regions are shown with Slavic names. Just like Isa Boletini is mentioned everywhere Isa Boletinać.[14] This does not make him Bosnian, neither is something negative on its own, unless it is used to derive ethnicity like in this case.Mondiad (talk) 14:45, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

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