Talk:Battenburg markings

Uniforms etc.

This article claimed that the black-and-white and blue-and-white chequer patterns came from the vehicle usage into uniforms etc, and grew to be generally associated as a symbol of the police.

This is incorrect. The Sillitoe Tartan chequer pattern has a long history (since the 1930s), and is used in many countries throughout the world (e.g. Australia, USA).

Mauls 01:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

That's true, and it was considered fortunate during testing, although I believe the addition of the retro-reflective 'battenburg' style uniform stripes post dates the introduction of battenburg on vehicles. I will try and find a source for this. Owain.davies 07:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Spelling

If, as I suspect is true, this style of markings is named after Battenberg cake, then the whole article (including the page name) is mis-spelling "Battenburg", with a U instead of an E. For, the record, the origin of the name is German, where Burg means "fortified castle", and Berg means "mountain"; the anglicised version of "Battenberg" is Mountbatten. I thought I'd mention this first, rather than moving the article and changing all the spellings, in case the spelling is the one used in references (which I doubt, but anyway). --RFBailey (talk) 19:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

That is true, and the article used to mention this. For some reason, the accepted spelling for the markings is with a 'u'. The two are used fairly interchangeably for things like the cake. Owain.davies (talk) 20:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Such is the state of the British education system....dear oh dear. Is it really "generally accepted" or is it just in that one reference (the Home Office report)? --RFBailey (talk) 21:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I would say generally accepted - even the posters at the ambulance station telling you how to clean the vehicle (as pressure washers can damage the markings) use the 'u', and they are from the manufacturers. That said, it is also not uncommon to see the cake spelt with a 'u' either, for a long time the Lyons brand was spelt this way, whereas the Mr Kipling was with an 'e', although i think they are both with an 'e' now. Owain.davies (talk) 08:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I have moved the article to the lemma "Battenberg markings", as etymogically this is clearly the correct spelling. As the etymologically false "Battenburg" is also in widespread usage (http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Battenburg+markings&word2=Battenberg+markings) I have noted this in the article.

I hope everyone is OK with this.

Incidentally, "Battenberg" must also be spelled with a capitalized initial because it's a toponym. Maikel (talk) 13:20, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I would disagree, despite the etymological root, which we are well aware of. In this case it serves as a useful distinction, and this is often how language forks come about. Your external link is possibly the worst justification i've ever seen for a move! I have moved the page back - the spelling is supported by the references (see WP:CITE and WP:V) and is as originally developed by the Police Scientific Development Branch. For that reason, despite the origin of the word, i'd say this is no longer a toponym, and in fact a distinct word in its own right. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 20:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

So, the Police Scientific Development Branch either can't spell, or are too obedient to correct spellings handed to them by superiors. Meanwhile, Google asks whether I mean "battenburg markings" and lists this article in a special section at the top of the list, so in fact it would appear that this article is the deciding factor in how the phrase is canonically spelt. What are you going to do about that? Sometimes it's physically impossible for Wikipedia to be neutral. 213.122.29.166 (talk) 13:45, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid that i'm not going to 'do' anything about it. Wikipedia only reports what is already published in other places as per WP:V, WP:NOR andWP:CITE. The fact remains that battenburg markings were developed by the PSDB, and they chose the spelling, and published reports which make excellent citations for Wikipedia. I don't see why this is any different to having an argument about whether a brand owner has spelt the name of their product correctly. The only reason under Wikipedia rules that we should change it, is if we had as many (or probably more) relaible references from the PSDB with the alternate spelling. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 11:01, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, battenbork it is. :) 213.122.47.251 (talk) 15:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

A feeble defence of an illiterate usage which will only confuse schoolchildren. Deipnosophista (talk) 13:07, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Is the statement with regards to colors allowed by civilians correct?

As I read it, it seems to be supported by a reference to a law which enacts EU regulations for vehicle lighting, rather than markings applied to a vehicle. John Nevard (talk) 00:58, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The road vehicle lighting regs cover both lighting and reflectors - see reference 4, which is schedule 17 of the RVLR 1989, it is Part II which is relevant for optional reflectors. Hope that helps. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 11:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Orange and Black

Orange and Black markings seem to be used by airport emergency services as per the photo in this article from the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/7543241.stm

Green and Blue

Green and Blue Battenberg appears to being used on the Mobile Radiation Detection Unit operated jointly by HMRC, Police and Home Office [1].

Switzerland

"The First Swiss Ambulanz Service with Battenburg markings is the ems service in Zofingen. Since 2008 they have battenburg markings on a Volkswagen Crafter and a Marcedes Sprinter. They use white/red colored markings on their ALS Units. Other services with a kind of battenburg markings is the Swiss border Patrol. They use lemon on blue markings."
Needs tidying up.
Is "First Swiss Ambulanz Service" or "First Swiss" the name of the service? Or does it mean "The first Swiss ambulance service with ...."?
Presumably "Swiss Border Patrol" is the name of the organisation so I will capitalise "Border".
Excuse my ignorance but what is "ALS"? --jmb (talk) 22:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

ALS is the acronym for Advanced Life Support (usually indicating the application of advanced airway control, intravenous access, and medication administration). This can occur in-hospital or in the field (as in the case of ambulance services). --Jbmcgyver (talk) 18:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

United States of America

"The first use of the battenburg markings in the USA was by Wilton Emergency Medical Service in Wilton, Connecticut, starting in 2008" This seems to be earlier: http://www.firehouse.com/forums/showpost.php?p=829791&postcount=44 (Later pics in the thread seem to show that both the yellow and red are reflective) Aldaden (talk) 02:25, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

UK Blue and Orange - Civil Defense or Rail Response?

I tossed a message onto the page of the person who changed UK's Blue and Orange from Rail Response to Civil Defense asking for a source. I wasn't aware of a change in who it belonged to, but if someone else has a source, or source that disproves this then feel free to use it/make appropriate edits & corrections, since the change was by an IP user.
--The Navigators (talk)-May British Rail Rest in Peace. 02:53, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Given that the UK hasn't had Civil Defence since 1968 except in the Isle of Man, who use plain blue vehicles with white writing, i'm going to say this in bunk, so i've reverted it. The Irish civil defence do use orange and blue, but they aren't in the United Kingdom. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 19:26, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Alright then, thanks for confirming my suspicions.--The Navigators (talk)-May British Rail Rest in Peace. 03:27, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Silitoe Tartan

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to not to merge. Gavleson (talk) 18:47, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

---

A user has proposed merging with Silitoe Tartan, but not started a talk dicsussion.

• Oppose - Silitoe tartan and battenburg are deliberately similar as designed, but quite separate histories. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 10:45, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - Same reason. Also, Silitoe is specifically a Police marking, Battenburg is more emergency, and non emergency, services. It's not as if Battenburg is just Silitoe 2.0. It came about for reasons of reflection and safety at night for all emergency services and they could have easily chosen the battenburg design had Silitoe never existed Identz (talk) 20:16, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - Agree to above. Extended article to explain distinction between Silitoe Tartan and high-visibility Battenburg markings Wikimalte (talk) 19:23, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - Same reasons.--100.34.75.219 (talk) 01:38, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - Same reasons.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 18:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support -
  • The current Sillitoe Tartan (that's two Ls BTW) is
    • partly self-contradictory (" distinctive black and white ... may be composed of several different colours")
    • partly unsourced (most non-anglo countries: did they really get the idea of chequers from Sillitoe? If not why are they there rather than here or on a separate "List of police forces with chequered uniform design" page?)
    • and partly a duplicate of Battenburg markings (the tables).
  • The history part of Sillitoe Tartan become the start of the History section on the Battenburg markings page. Listing which police have chequers on their uniform, and which emergency services have chequers on their vehicles, can conveniently be done in one place. jnestorius^(talk) 12:02, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
• merge We give readers a clearer overall history if we present this as one article. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:35, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Not HM Prison Service

I have deleted HM Prison Service, black and white, from the list. As far as I know (e.g. see this) prison vans do not use reflective side markings (Battenburg), although they sometimes have a black and white chequer on the front. I may be wrong, but this is a case where a source is needed. Pol098 (talk) 14:27, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

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Battenberg - more correct name

I think, Battenberg is more correct form of the name. --Nolanus (talk) 23:00, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I would argue otherwise. The UK's government have referred to "battenburg" in explanatory notes in reference a regulation. This is noteworthy because the UK must be the most prolific user of battenburg markings. The article also focuses heavily on the British and crown dependency's use of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 07Alpha55 (talk • contribs) 20:28, 4 August 2020 (UTC)