Talk:Bartłomiej Sienkiewicz

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Bartłomiej Sienkiewicz. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130415071056/http://wbj.pl:80/article-61979-rostowski-appointed-deputy-prime-minister.html to http://www.wbj.pl/article-61979-rostowski-appointed-deputy-prime-minister.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:27, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Capitalization for titles

@Egeymi: As I've already mentioned in our conversation on my talk page, titles should be capitalized per MOS:BIO#Titles_of_people. The policy says as follows: They are capitalized only in the following cases: [...] When a formal title for a specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article), and is not a reworded description[.]

The words "Minister of the Interior" and "Minister of Culture and National Heritage" refer to the positions, not descriptions of them. As I mentioned before, that's the official capitalization used by the Polish government in English. They are also, as the policy says, not followed by an article. There is no reason to change Sienkiewicz has served as Minister of Culture and National Heritage... to Sienkiewicz has served as minister of culture and national heritage... - that is not correct. According to the policy, it would be possible to say Sienkiewicz has served as the minister of culture and national heritage..., but such rewording feels unnecessary (why not just list the position?) and goes against what other similar articles do anyway - Adam Szłapka, Borys Budka, Adam Bodnar, to name a few.

Please refrain from making baseless reverts, and please familiarize yourself with actual policies/ongoing processes before reverting. Max19582 (talk) 21:55, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I am very familiar with the WP rules, so all these caps are not consistent with the WP rules. These noun phrases occur in object positions in sentences meaning that these refer to descriptions not specific positions of the person. The latter type occurs in subject positions like Prime Minister X which is rightfully followed in the page.

You're again talking about Polish conventions which are totally irrelevant in this context. Giving examples from other pages is also not helpful.

As suggested to you, "If discussion does not resolve the issue, a Third Opinion can be requested", I'm proposing to take a third opion on the issue because you don't try to see this issue from a different angle. Egeymi (talk) 03:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

@Egeymi: It's used without a modifier and is the exact wording of the phrase - that's what the policy says should be written in title case.

Can you please provide relevant Wikipedia policies you think apply here? Once again, MOS:JOB says as follows - They are capitalized only in the following cases: [...] When a formal title for a specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article), and is not a reworded description[.], and later, an example of Richard Nixon was President of the United States is given which is (1) indeed the formal title for the entity addressed as a title, (2) indeed not plural, (3) indeed not preceded by a modifier/article, (4) indeed not a reworded description. Now for a sentence taken from your revision - Sienkiewicz has served as minister of culture and national heritage. It is (1) the formal title for the entity addressed as a title, (2) not plural, (3) not preceded by a modifier/article, (4) not a reworded description. It doesn't need to be placed before the noun to use title case, look at examples provided by the policy. "Minister of Culture and National Heritage" refers to the name of the position Sienkiewicz holds, hence should be capitalized.

Moreover, those are not Polish conventions. Polish is completely irrelevant here, and all the sources I brought up were referring to official English spellings of Polish government positions.

I'm willing to opt for Third Opinion as well, but keep in mind the process requires thorough discussion on the article's talk page first. If you do think it has been thoroughly discussed already, feel free to use it. Max19582 (talk) 04:51, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

@Max19582: I'll provide the related rules soon, hope you can wait and please don't revert my edit. I know before initiating the process there should be discussion. Egeymi (talk) 05:03, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

@Max19582:, per MOS:JOB, in the sentences the "minister of X" type phrases shouldn't be given in capitals because these denote a description. These are not the titles of the subject which are mostly given in subject positions, or before their (sur)names. In the page the titles are given in capitals such as Prime Minister X. It's my justification. If my argument isn't sufficient for you, I think we need a third opinion in this regard. Egeymi (talk) 18:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

@Egeymi: per MOS:JOB as well, the policy does mention the "minister of X" type phrases being capitalized. It only proscribes capitalization of just the portfolio when the phrase "minister of" itself is in lowercase - When writing "minister of foreign affairs" or "minister of national defence", the portfolio should be lower cased as it is not a proper noun on its own (i.e. write minister of foreign affairs or, as a proper noun, Minister of Foreign Affairs; do not write minister of Foreign Affairs).

The policy does use examples (which I provided earlier in the discussion) where titles are used in other positions than the sentence's subject. In the article's sentences, the "minister of..." phrase is neither modified nor is it preceded by an article. I still believe it should be written in title caps, per the policy.

I do believe opening a 3O request in this regard would be the best option to approach the issue now. If you have no objections, feel free to open one. Max19582 (talk) 19:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

@Max19582: I have no objection, but would you like to initiate it, since you seem to be better than me in such procedures, thanks. But if you don't want, I'll try to open it. Egeymi (talk) 19:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Alright then, I'll submit the request. Max19582 (talk) 19:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Egeymi (talk) 19:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Third opinion: Seems like Max19582 is right, per "the official capitalization used by the Polish government in English." and "per MOS:JOB as well, the policy does mention the "minister of X" type phrases being capitalized." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

References