Talk:Bakhtiari people

2009

Where is the source for Bakhtiari origin supposedly being Kurdish tribes from Syria? Using Sharafnama (pan-kurdish literature)as your source is ridiculously biased, it is as historically accurate as Shahname. A reliable source should be provided or this part should be removed as it sounds to me to be more like Kurdish Sepearist policy which has sneaked into this article; bakhtiaris speak a dialect of luri, and are ethnically primarily a mix between Lurs and Persians. There are tons of myth about how they have anything from kurdish origin to even mixed greek from Parthian times, but there are no reliable sources. As they identify themselves as Lurs/Persian, and a big chunk of them was immigrated by buyid rulers from Esfahan (Persians) it should be just left at that.

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The Bakhtiari are a subgroup of the Lurs; and not a distinct ethnic group. This should be mentioned in the article.

Not clear; some sources consider Bakhtiari and Luri as two different branches of southwestern Iranian languages. Ellipi (talk) 07:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

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I deleted "most ancient Aryan tribes" etc as it was an unsourced addition fro something which might well be true, but equally well be contentious. If you add it again, please provide a source Refdoc 14:32, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

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Why some Bakhtiaris speak Azeri and have all the characteristics of the northern Iran people (fair skin, blue/green eyes and fair hair (almost blonde hair at birth))? These physical characteristics are neither indigenous nor shared by other inhabitants of the areas that Bakhtiaries currently live (i.e. south west of Iran). PS: I worked in Koohrang several years and have seen that myself.

By the way, why the discussion page is not editable/accessible?

Are you serious or joking? Bakhtiaris speaking Azeri? I'm sorry, but I can't help but laugh at this statement. You probably just met some Azeris living in Bakhtiari cities.

In regards to the Bakhtiari physical appearance. You obviously have never lived amongst Bakhtiari people, but they share a wide range of physical characterstics (like the Azeris), and the Bakhtiari have most in common with the other Iranic groups of the Zagros; not with Turks from the Caucaus.

I think that person up there is a Pan-turk, and wants to say Lurs are Turks talking, due to fair complex of some Lurs, which is kind of funny, since real Turks are same race as Mongols. If there are any blonde and blue eyes in Azari it is NOT the tork race. Idiots.

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I read in dehkoda's dictionary that it is believed that bakhtiaris are the descendent from bactrians in this region, how possible is that, i myself come from bakhtiari heritage, and would love to find out the truth about Bakhtiaris, http://www.loghatnaameh.com/dehkhodaworddetail-31d5cb7c08c44b6d885f0e33c9ca98c2-fa.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.134.122.214 (talk) 17:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sharafnama is pan kurdish literature? Have you even read the book? it's considered one of the most reliable sources on medieval kurdish history and it's still being used by historians today, how could a literature be pan kurdish when nationalism especially among kurds was not even a thing at the time? Sharafkhan clearly declares his loyalty to both the safavids and the ottomans in the book. Zageos21 (talk) 17:47, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi Zageos21, could you please provide us with the exact source of the Sharafnama, where Bakhtiaris are mentioned as a Kurd tribe? A scan would be highly appreciated, since i couldn't find any online version of the book. Boboszky (talk) 11:26, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm quoting this from my own physical copy of sharafnama, Page 46: "Many kurdish tribes and clans from all parts of kurdistan, migrated to the fort of freedom and settled down in the independent Luristan, the ones that we know of are: 1-Astarki 2-Mamakoya 3-Bakhtiyari 4- jwanaki 5- Bedanyian 6- Zamadiyan 7- Alani 8- Lutawand 9- Bitwand 10- Pwazaki 11- Shnwand 12- Raki 13- Xakiy 14- Harooniy 15- Ashki 16- Koyi 17- Lerawy 18- Moyi 19- Bahsafoony 20- Kamankashiy 21- Moomastiy 22- Omaky 23- Tawabi 24- Grawiy 25- Madiha 26- Akurd 27-Kolard. Zageos21 (talk) 12:59, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

i couldn't find an online English version either, i was only able to find this PDF kurdish version https://wesanxaneyaazad.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/SEREFNAME_SEREFXANE-BEDLISI.pdf even if you don't speak kurdish you would be able to make out the names of the tribes on page 78-79 Zageos21 (talk) 13:37, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

79-80* sorry, a mistake on my part. Zageos21 (talk) 13:40, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Why are you replying to a decade old comment? --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:22, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

i didn't notice the date when i replied to it as the convo had resurfaced just recently Zageos21 (talk) 20:53, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Clarification

The following excerpt from the article is misleading-

Bakhtiari women generally have more status and freedom than most Iranian women, and many of the daughters of the wealthier families are encouraged to receive at least basic education. Many significant Iranian politicians, governors of provinces and other dignitaries are of Bakhtiari origin.

This implies that Iranian women do not receive basic education, when on the contrary, close to 70% of Iranian university students are females. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.58.132.208 (talk) 21:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Farsinet

Is farsinet a reliable source? If we accept it as reliable source, then its written that Kurdish includes Sorani, Kurmanji, Gorani, Laki, Awrami. That means, its able to use for other articles too. If its not reliable, then we should delete it!--Gomada (talk) 21:03, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Sources Invalid

you can't use Farsi net as sources it's just Pro Persian site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.72.140.137 (talk) 07:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

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Disruptive editing by IP 24.70.56.66

I'm moving part of this content from the talk page of Kansas Bear;

• The author of "The Last of the Khans", iUniverse self-published, was not written by Alireza Bakhtiari, but by Ali Morteza Samsam Bakhtiari. Neither of them are historians.
• "History of Persia", that the IP in question copied from the self-published book(page 19) and failed to list the author, was written by Percy Sykes, who is also not an historian.
• bakhtiarifamily.com doesn't say a single thing about the Bakhtiaris being a "Persian tribe".

On the other hand the Encyclopedia of Islam, (p. 821) pretty much considers them to be a subgroup of the Lurs; "Lur -- an Iranian people living in the mountains in southwestern Persia. As in the case of the Kurds, the principal link among the four branches of the Lurs (Mamasani, Kuhghilu'i, Bakthiari, and Lur proper) is that of language."

So I'd like to ask the IP in question, who claims to be a "historian", and who's clearly edit warring over this, to actually present reliable sources that back up his claim. There's nothing wrong with using primary sources, if notable enough, in the article, but you can't use them to push a POV that's clearly refuted by modern-day scholars/academics. - LouisAragon (talk) 14:22, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

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Sourced section

@Boboszky: The information is already sourced - please read WP:CS, I don't have to put the very same citation in every sentence. It is already listed in the end. Moreover, neither EI3 nor Islamica has pages on it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:51, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: I've been through your sources and I cannot see anything about some statements you made...The resemblance between Bakhtiyari and Greek dance has been used as further proof , or Due to their luck of escaping danger throughout their history. Or However it is mostly claimed that the designation "Bakhtiari" came largely into use some time in antiquity. Please provide with the sources to resolve this issue. Thanks Boboszky (talk) 10:05, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Are you sure it's the correct place you're looking? You have to buy access you know. Here's the quote;

The similarity between Bakhtiyārī dance and traditional Greek dance has been taken as evidence of this linkage (see Rashīd Yāsimī, 8).

They called themselves Lur, i.e. nomadic (Khʷāndamīr, 1/180; Ẓill al-Sulṭān, 239–240); and, as their ¶ oral history speaks of the stroke of luck which allowed them to escape danger, they named themselves ‘fortunate’ (bakht-yār)

Also, please stop further edit warring, thanks. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:11, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@Boboszky: If you keep reverting without reason I will have to take this to WP:ANI. You have no reason to add the POV template and that the section needs citations and has multiple issues. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:13, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: You are citing Gene R. Garthwaite as a source with the statement However it is mostly claimed that the designation "Bakhtiari" came largely into use some time in antiquity. In Gene R. Garthwaites book Khans and Shahs (that I own), it says (p4, Chapter 1, 'a historical and theorical survey'), Bakhtiyari history, stretching back to the 14th century, and the 200-year leadership role of the Dureki khans within it tantalize the social history of Iran. Other renowned scholar Jean-Pierre Digard, specialist of the Bakhtiaris, date the beginning of Bakhtiaris with the current name Bakhtiari starting the same period. So how come you are giving sources but changing its content?

I did not add the 'However it is mostly claimed that the designation "Bakhtiari" came largely into use some time in antiquity' bit and do not care about it. I am talking about the other stuff which you keep adding templates into. Let's not ignore the elephant in the room. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:28, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@Boboszky: There is not a single rule here that says one source is not sufficient. As for your other arguments, please read this;

WP:SOURCEACCESS: Do not reject reliable sources just because they are difficult or costly to access. Some reliable sources may not be easily accessible. For example, an online source may require payment, and a print-only source may be available only through libraries. Rare historical sources may even be available only in special museum collections and archives. If you have trouble accessing a source, others may be able to do so on your behalf (see WikiProject Resource Exchange).

WP:CITENEED: A reference at the end of a paragraph typically refers to the whole paragraph, and similarly a reference at the end of a sentence may almost always be taken as referring to the whole sentence. If a particular part of a sentence or paragraph seems to require a separate citation, or looks as if it may have been inserted into the text at a sentence or paragraph level, try to check the original reference rather than adding tags to text that may already be well referenced. The extra parameters available in the {{Citation needed span}} template may allow you to indicate which section you want to refer to.

Waiting for your reply. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:41, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@Boboszky: Could you please answer? If not, then I will revert it back to its original revision. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:10, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

@Boboszky: Last chance to continue the discussion, or it will be reverted back to its original revision tommorow. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:19, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Possibility of adding a list of tribes

Could we collect a list of Bakhtiari tribes and post them here? There is a fairly extensive list on WikiFa that we could use to add here, and there are plenty of sources that we could add varying from tribe to tribe. Shreksdonkeyfromchina (talk) 20:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)