Talk:Bahsahwahbee

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Lightburst (talk) 14:35, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

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• ... that three massacres of the Western Shoshone took place at Bahsahwahbee, a sacred grove of swamp cedars? Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20171022142414/http://water.nv.gov/hearings/past/Spring%20-%20Cave%20-%20Dry%20Lake%20and%20Delamar%20Valleys%202017/Exhibits/CTGR/CTGR_EXH_021.pdf
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Vaal Reefs, Template:Did you know nominations/Redistricting in Texas

5x expanded by Reywas92 (talk). Self-nominated at 01:48, 6 June 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Bahsahwahbee; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: - Not done
Overall: @Reywas92: Good article. Waiting on QPQ. Though, it does feel like the article is nearing on WP:CLOP with the NRHP source so maybe some copyediting would do some good. Onegreatjoke (talk) 02:50, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

• • @Onegreatjoke: added QPQ and reworded a few areas to avoid close paraphrasing. Reywas92^Talk 02:33, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Approve. Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:48, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

"Counterpoints"

It's not acceptable to put your own commentary in this article or the Johnston article. "It is unlikely he would target a large tribe of Indians based on this report." is WP:Original research that is your own interpretation of WP:PRIMARY sources, not a conclusion made by a reliable independent source. The article should only include sources relevant to this place and event. If you can find a source that discusses the historicity of Wilson's account that would be great! But do NOT make your own conclusions with sources that do not mention this place at all. Reywas92^Talk 01:05, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Wilson's account is so flawed I can't believe it is accepted as "evidence." Wilson died in 1915 and his accounts were published in 1926 by a nephew. He admits that it is a collection of stories that he used to tell his grandchildren.

Wilson was not a soldier and it is unlikely he could assess the number of casualties in a battle. The newspaper report states 20.

Wilson also mistook Johnston for Lieutenant Ebenezer Gay who actually led the U.S. troops in the surprise attack on the Indian encampment. We don't even know if Wilson was actually present.

A "massacre" of the magnitude implied by Wilson would have resulted in some news coverage. The Mormons would have reported it as they were antagonistic to the army. And four companies of soldiers (400 troops) could not have killed 350 Indian warriors without incurring a significant casualty rate themselves. Yet none are reported. Who buried the supposed 700+ casualties?

Johnston was an honorable officer who led his men with discipline. He would not have permitted his troops to commit a massacre. He was outraged by the Mormon-instigated massacre at Meadow Mountain. It is not acceptable to slander Johnston's reputation.

Johnston blamed white men for instigating the massacre of the emigrant train to California and would not have wiped out an entire tribe in response. Johnston's aide, Major Fitz John Porter said his superior treated the Indians with kindness during his tenure.

Johnston was the army commander and spent nearly all his time at Camp Floyd observing the Mormons and maintaining order. He would not have personally led four companies on a raid. Lieutenant Gay was in command of the detachment.

Wilson's account is exaggerated. The story of an old man. DeoVindice (talk) 10:28, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I have included two independent and contemporary accounts of the incident (US Army and Mormon newspaper) that corroborate in detail. Wilson's story is unverified and written 51 years after the fact. DeoVindice (talk) 22:17, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

This article is about Bahsahwahbee area. The primary sources you added are not. https://web.archive.org/web/20171022142414/http://water.nv.gov/hearings/past/Spring%20-%20Cave%20-%20Dry%20Lake%20and%20Delamar%20Valleys%202017/Exhibits/CTGR/CTGR_EXH_021.pdf makes a connection to this site, your sources do not. While I will allow your apologist additions indicating limited historical documentation of this, it is completely unacceptable for you to make these primary source accounts of an incident the primary subject of the section/article. Unless you have independent sources relating Gay's account to the article's subject or comparing it to Wilson's account, this is WP:Original research and may not be included and certainly not emphasized in this way. Gay's account was never called the Spring Valley Massacre and never connected to this article's subject and should therefore not be included as the primary topic. Reywas92^Talk 23:29, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

"The Spring Valley Massacre of 1859 does not appear to have occurred within the Bahsahwahbee TCP area itself" as quoted in the PDF. Wilson's account has no date or location. I have provided two independent and contemporary accounts within the area (US Army and Mormon newspaper). Gay mentions proximal locations. Wilson's account was never called the Spring Valley Massacre and never connected to this article's subject and should therefore not be included as the primary topic. DeoVindice (talk) 12:56, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Wilson's account literally makes no mention of Spring Valley or Bahsahwahbee. He just mentions a lake and some willows. His story bears no relevance to Spring Valley. It was written 51 years after the alleged event. Wikipedia articles should be credible and present substantiated and verified evidence. DeoVindice (talk) 13:14, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Wow, nice job leaving out the next line -> "The Spring Valley Massacre of 1859 does not appear to have occurred within the Bahsahwahbee TCP area itself. However, Bahsahwahbee memorializes that massacre, and it is the location where Newe go to remember, mourn, and pay homage to the spirits of their ancestors who were massacred." His story DOES bear relevance to Bahsahwahbee, so it stays in the article. Gay's account was never called anything, and no sources connect it to Bahsahwahbee, regardless of Gay's mention of locations. It is not relevant. Reywas92^Talk 13:31, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

The alleged massacre did not occur at Bahsahwahbee. Wilson's account does not mention the location. The PDF is merely an application to register Bahsahwahbee as a place of historic significance. It is not a peer-reviewed and academically rigorous document. You may have written it yourself. It relies on Wilson's unsubstantiated and unverified account written 51 years after the event. Both of these sources constitute original research. DeoVindice (talk) 22:14, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Content dispute / Edit warring

The dispute between @DeoVindice and @Reywas92 seems to have reignited.

The dispute was discussed here Talk:Bahsahwahbee#"Counterpoints" without resolution.

The dispute was brought up at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard here Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 238#Bahsahwahbee but was closed as "apparently abandoned".

These editors should discuss further to reach a compromise or follow one of the dispute resolution options as outlined here [1]

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Jesus Christ, this guy. I don't care if you think the army reports are more relible, no one has connected those accounts to this site that has been listed on the NRHP. It's irrelevant. Reywas92^Talk 01:27, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, Reywas92 is trying to manufacture a massacre. Wilson's account is unverified, published 51 years after the event, and has no mention of Spring Valley or Bahsahwahbee. There is evidence that Wilson did not even write the account mentioned. The Morgan County Newspaper (28 August 1959 edition) states that "'White Indian Boy' was written by a man named Howard Driggs" who was an English professor at Utah University - further weakening the credibility of Wilson's account. DeoVindice (talk) 02:06, 28 January 2024 (UTC)