Talk:Alienation (speech)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 20:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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The sunken former RMS Queen Elizabeth

• ... that "a rat race is for rats. We're not rats. We're human beings"? Dirct quote from speech eg: Text of the speech as published by Glasgow University
  • ALT1:... that Jimmy Reid was inspired to write his speech on social alienation after witnessing the emotional reaction of Clyde shipbuilders to the sinking of the former RMS Queen Elizabeth (pictured) in 1972? "he claimed that when he wrote the address he was influenced by some old shipyard workers he had met in Connolly's bar some months before, 'wiping away their tears' at the news of the sinking of the Queen Elizabeth in Hong Kong harbour" from: Knox, W. W. J.; McKinlay, Alan (2019). Jimmy Reid: A Clyde-built man. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-1-78962-492-2. page 144
  • ALT2:... that Jimmy Reid's inaugural speech as Rector of Glasgow University had "previous Rectors, among them Gladstone, Disraeli and Sir Robert Peel ... spinning in their graves"? quote taken from Knox, W. W. J.; McKinlay, Alan (2019). Jimmy Reid: A Clyde-built man. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-1-78962-492-2. page 144

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/WFAD
• Comment: Image only for ALT1

Moved to mainspace by Dumelow (talk). Self-nominated at 17:54, 19 August 2020 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Fascinating article, tks for your work! I think ALT2 needs reworking to use, since the spinning in their graves is an opinion, not a fact. ALT0 is the most hooky imo. (t · c) buidhe 06:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks buidhe, ALT0 is my favourite too - Dumelow (talk) 08:17, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Alienation (speech)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Bilorv (talk · contribs) 00:36, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Detailed nitpicks below, otherwise good.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	Structure, layout, formatting and linking is appropriate, no MOS issues found.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	Very high-quality referencing. I can access enough of the sources to make a judgement that the citations verify what they are cited for.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Is the article meant to just follow WP:MINREF, rather than the inline citations necessarily covering all of the content between it and the previous citation? I notice that, for instance, the reference at the end of the paragraph doesn't mention Jimmy Reid was an Amalgamated Engineering Union leader, and the same for Reid warned his audience not to hate the capitalists who he stated were also a product of the alienation in society (not quite, at least – it doesn't verify "were also a product of the alienation"). These two facts seem uncontroversial and easily referenced enough that it's fine if this is the style.
	2c. it contains no original research.	No original research found.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	No copyvio found.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	1,900 words is not unreasonably short for a small-scope article and all the main aspects are present.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Good summary style with an appropriate level of detail on background and subsequent events, all of which are sufficiently relevant to the speech.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Represents all major published points of view on the speech.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	No instability.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	Good use of free images.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	All relevant, captions fine. Alt text would be good but not necessary for GA criteria.
	7. Overall assessment.

Detailed comments

• When was Reid's term exactly? April 1972 until 3 years later? Spell this out in "Background".

Three years from election, done - Dumelow (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• ... helped resolve student issues, such as the eviction of a group of five undergraduates from their hall of residence in February – This has the faint implication that Reid ensured the eviction, but I'm guessing his aim was to prevent it?

Clarified - Dumelow (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Reid's inaugural address would take place – Just "took place" is fine, I think.

Done - Dumelow (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Some disruption was caused when two students dressed as a pink pantomime horse attempted to enter the hall – Do we know why? At protest against Reid's appointment? (On what grounds?)

The source didn't specify, probably just a student jape - Dumelow (talk) 08:25, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• ... a consequence of the capitalist system of production – "Mode of production" is a slightly more precise technical term, right? And you could link Mode of production or Capitalist mode of production (Marxist theory).

The source uses system of production, but i think mode of production is better and have linked to the Marxist theory article - Dumelow (talk) 08:25, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• ... led to workers having little understanding ... – This applies specifically to the proletariat/working class, right? Someone unfamiliar with the topic might think it also applies to owners of the means of production, so could be worth saying the class rather than just "workers", and maybe linking.

Good point, used working class - Dumelow (talk) 08:25, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Should the Bute Hall and RMS Queen Elizabeth images be swapped? It looks like they appear next to the opposite paragraph to where they're mentioned.

Yes, not sure why I had them back to front - Dumelow (talk) 08:25, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Though he framed his argument with reference to the shipbuilding industry Reid's address – Comma after "industry"?

Yep, done - Dumelow (talk) 08:25, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• "quoted Christ" – Worth adding the specific verse?

Yes, good idea. I assumed, given the wording, that it came from the King James Version but it appears to be closest to an 1899 American edition, strangely. Note added to article - Dumelow (talk) 08:25, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• He lamented wasted potential saying "I am convinced that ..." – Should be a comma before "saying".

Done - Dumelow (talk) 08:25, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Reid's biographers William Knox and Adam McKinlay state that the address had a liberal, middle-class and "almost Victorian" tone in the way it espouses the virtues of public service – "stated" (we quote critical analysis in past tense) and I think either "address has" or "it espoused" (consistent tense for the speech).

Yep, went for espoused - Dumelow (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• The speech was reprinted in full in The New York Times which hailed it – Comma after The New York Times.

Done - Dumelow (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• In Glasgow newspaper the Evening Times – false titles are slightly un-British English so maybe "In the Glasgow newspaper", but definitely "The Evening Times" (italics including "The") as it's part of the newspaper name.

Done - Dumelow (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• After all we are all against the "rat race" – Single quote marks here as it's nested within an outer (double-)quote.

Done - Dumelow (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Others praised the address which was described – Comma before "which".

Done - Dumelow (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• The Murray quote is a bit link: I'd elide Let them turn. Let them gyrate. Go into orbit if they will (just a fluorish, doesn't add meaning).

Done - Dumelow (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• He afterwards presented – Reads a bit awkwardly, would prefer Afterwards, he presented

- Dumelow (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

A pleasure to review, much good work so far. Apologies that it's been so long in the queue. — Bilorv (talk) 00:36, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your review Bilorv, it's much appreciated (to be honest I forgot I had listed this one!). I agree with all your suggestions and have made changed to the article per my responses above. I've also sorted out the referencing issues you picked up (I accidentally merged text I intended to source with unsourced text in an early edit & the other bit was sourced fromt he speech itself) - Dumelow (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Just an inline citation needed to the text of the speech (e.g. via the external link at the bottom) in the second footnote, as it's a direct quote and WP:V requires it, and then I'm happy. I've also done a couple of changes here that I think you forgot to implement but marked "Done" (feel free to revert if that wasn't the intention, these small changes won't be a dealbreaker for GA). Otherwise the responses fix everything I could find. — Bilorv (talk) 15:18, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Bilorv I've used the University of Glasgow text of the speech but left it also as an External Link also as I think it is useful to the reader. Thanks for fixing those items I missed, I must have lost an edit somewhere along the line - Dumelow (talk) 16:17, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Great, that's a pass for GA from me! Thanks for the quick replies. — Bilorv (talk) 16:43, 11 March 2021 (UTC)