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Bio-psychological effects and potential mechanisms of the Alexander Technique

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Abstract

The AT is in the interesting position of having been practiced for over 125 years in a wide variety of educational and medical settings yet a proper biological understanding of the mechanisms underlying AT has only recently become possible. This was also the case for many of the early psychotropic drugs that were discovered serendipitously with no clear explanation for their purported mechanisms of action (Carey et al., 2020).

The main hypothesis in this paper is that the effects of the Alexander Technique (AT) can be, at least partially, explained in terms of mechanisms known to biological psychology. Secondarily the AT likely shares mechanisms of action with movement based embodied cognitive practices (MECPs) such as Yoga, Qigong and Tai Chi and modern Western mindfulness techniques such as Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) and Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy (MBCT).

Focusing on two areas of promising research identified by systematic reviews (Woodman & Moore, 2011; Ernst & Canter, 2003), AT in treatment of Parkinson’s associated disability and chronic back pain, this paper attempts to build upon current hypotheses for the currently unknown mechanisms underlying the AT’s effects using the latest available research.

Background

The Alexander Technique (AT) is a method of neuromuscular re-education known to affect postural tone (Jones, 1965; Cacciatore et al., 2011) and movement coordination (Cacciatore et al., 2011; Cacciatore et al., 2014; Preece et al., 2016). AT can be called a phenomenological study of the interaction between one’s biology and psychology (mindbody), as it’s concerned with the practical relationships between volitional cognitive behavior, somatosensory awareness, and regulation of muscle activity in postural support and movement (Stallibrass et al., 2002).

AT teachers use skilled manual contact to observe and assess changes in muscle activity, balance, and coordination, highlighting the behavior for the student while simultaneously giving verbal suggestions or directing the student’s use of conscious autosuggestion (volitional cognitive behavior). With physical and verbal direction from the teacher, pupils learn to recognize and adopt better behavioral strategies for overall control of balance and movement (Stallibrass et al., 2002).

Parkinson’s disease (PD) is a progressive neurological disease that includes a range of symptoms related to control of posture (Doherty et al., 2011). The biological basis for PD is death of dopamine secreting neurons caused by degeneration of the substantia nigra and nigrostriatal system. PD damages the nigrostriatal system because elevated intracellular calcium ions and dopamine combine to kill cells in the nigrostriatal system while the mesolimbic/mesocortical system lacks elevated levels of calcium ions and is therefore unaffected. Most cases of Parkinson’s disease (PD) do not have genetic causes but there are PD correlated gene mutations known to cause higher levels of defective proteins to accumulate and damage dopaminergic neurons (Carlson & Bricket, 2022).

Systematic reviews of trials (Woodman & Moore, 2011; Ernst & Canter, 2003) found good research for the effectiveness of Alexander Technique lessons in Parkinson’s-associated disability. According to the National Health Service (UK), lessons in the AT may help one carry out everyday tasks more easily and improve feelings about Parkinson's disability. Medication often alleviates some Parkinsonian motor symptoms, but it does not cure them and may make aspects of postural control worse (Contin et al., 1996).  According to Cohen, et al. (2015), movement based embodied cognitive practices (MECPs) that are similar to AT (Posadzki, 2009), such as Yoga (Ban et al., 2021), Qigong and Tai Chi (Li et al., 2012) have shown promise in alleviating symptoms associated with PD disability.

Potentially Shared Mechanisms of Mindfulness, MECPs & AT

Within the field of contemplative science, the directing of attention to bodily sensations has so far mainly been studied in the context of seated meditation and mindfulness practices. However, the cultivation of interoceptive, proprioceptive and kinesthetic awareness lies at the core of MECPs such as Yoga, Qigong and Tai Chi and likely plays a key role in the efficacy of modern somatic therapeutic techniques like the Alexander Technique (Schmalzl et. al., 2014). Mechanisms involved in AT likely overlap with those involved with meditation and mindfulness practices, many of which have similar core principles (Posadzki, 2009). Mindfulness has influenced a wide range of approaches to psychotherapy with new research revealing significant improvements in various disorders with reduction in symptoms and prevention of relapse (Siegel, 2007).

Fairly recently, cognitive neuroscience has shifted from a predominantly disembodied and computational view of the mind, to more embodied and situated views of the mind; realizing that mental functions cannot be fully understood without reference to the physical body and the environment in which they are experienced (Schmalzl et al., 2014). Early cognitive research neglected the issues concerning the activation of action, preparedness of response, direction of action, and termination of action (Pervin, 1992). Advances in the neuroscience of motor control and promising initial results have led to increased interest in AT related research.

AT Principals

A core aspect of AT, the process of ‘directing,’ involves applying specific intentions to postural tone, body schema, and spatial awareness. The practice of ‘directing’ attention to postural tone and body schema also involves monitoring departures from postural intentions and applying inhibitory control to motor planning to prevent automatic patterns of muscle activation. ‘Direction’ in AT lessons can be thought of as receiving suggestion or giving autosuggestion and focusing on the reaction and/or inhibiting the resulting behavior while a teacher provides immediate manual and verbal feedback, creating a bio-feedback loop with the student, which in turn increases awareness of nervous system state, muscular tone and reactive behavioral habits that might otherwise remain subconscious. ‘Inhibiting,’ another core aspect of AT, may refer to the undoing or prevention of unnecessary tensing, whether at rest, in anticipation, or during an action. In an AT lesson, inhibition may also refer to prevention of motor planning while performing an action. The AT process of inhibiting may also refer to a more general intentional calming of the nervous system (Cacciatore et al., 2011).

The body axis plays a central role in AT because of the critical function of postural tone in this region. The neck may be especially crucial due to its proximal location at the top of spine and direct role in orienting the head (Loram et al., 2017). The spine’s instability and its central location require that axial tone mediate interactions between limbs. Failure to adapt axial tone can manifest as jerky, uncomfortable, or poorly controlled movement. Correcting this failure could have wide-ranging benefits as postural tone interacts with executive processes, motor acts, emotional regulation, and pain (Cacciatore et al., 2011). Although the effectiveness of AT lessons has been shown at the behavioral level, their effects on altering brain circuitry are still unclear.

Mirror Neurons

In MECPs and related work, the relationship between the teacher and student is like that of therapist and client, together they enter a state of enhanced connectivity. In this state there is a largely automatic sharing of affective and somatosensory experience, said to also involve a simultaneous activation of affective and sensory brain structures in both individuals (Singer & Lamm, 2009; Nummenmaa et al., 2012). Dyadic or dialectical contemplation, typically master and pupil, is at the core of many Eastern mindfulness modalities and MECPs, and is similar in Western systems such as the AT and body-oriented psychotherapy.

The neural circuits activated in a person carrying out actions, expressing emotions, and experiencing sensations are activated also, automatically via a mirror neuron system, in the observer of those actions, emotions, and sensations. That shared activation suggests that a functional mechanism of “embodied simulation” consists of automatic, unconscious, and non-inferential simulation in the observer of actions, emotions, and sensations carried out and experienced by the observed. The shared neural activation pattern and the accompanying embodied simulation constitute a fundamental biological basis for understanding another's mind, empathy, which is required in any therapeutic relationship (Gallese et al., 2007).

A component problem of pain is the long-term emotional implications of chronic pain; the threat that such pain represents to one’s future comfort and well-being. The long-term emotional consequences of chronic pain appear to be mediated by pathways that monitor the prefrontal cortex (Carlson & Bricket, 2022). Several functional imaging studies have shown that under certain conditions, stimuli associated with pain can activate the ACC even when no actual painful stimulus is applied. Singer et al. (2004)* found that when women received a painful electrical shock to the back of their hand, their ACC, anterior insular cortex, thalamus, and somatosensory cortex became active. When they saw their partners receive a painful shock but did not receive one themselves, the same regions (except for the somatosensory cortex) became active. The emotional component of pain (i.e. a vicarious experience of pain) can be provoked by empathy for someone, causing responses in the brain similar to the ones caused by actual pain (Carlson & Bricket, 2022).

Body Schema & Brain Plasticity

A particularly relevant form of chronic pain in this context is phantom limb pain as one theory maintains that phantom limb pain can arise from a conflict between visual feedback and proprioceptive feedback from the phantom limb (Carlson & Bricket, 2022). Mirror box therapy is designed with this relationship in mind and shares aspects of potentially modulating body schema with AT.

A physiologist and medical research scientist at the University of New South Wales, Dr. David Garlick, made a preliminary survey of possible physiological explanations involved in the AT and laid the groundwork for current theories of AT mechanisms in the 1980s. He stressed that the awareness of inter-relationship of muscle and mental states (body schema) as one of the most important effects of the AT. Garlick’s research included various types of postural analysis, the majority of which were published in The Lost Sixth Sense (1990). The “sixth sense” in this context refers to underdevelopment and/or malfunctioning of kinaesthesia and proprioceptive senses. Garlick postulates that the AT mainly operates on these senses and the brain mechanisms related to them; he lists sensory nerve inputs from neck muscle spindles, Golgi tendon organs, skin and joint receptors, and differences in types of muscle fibers as physiological factors relevant to the transmission and reception of psychomotor information used in dyadic AT practice (Garlick, 1990)*.

In his 1985 book, The Man Who Mistook his Wife for a Hat, Oliver Sacks describes an extreme case of the loss of proprioception in the chapter, ‘On the Level.’  The patient discovers AT-like strategies of additional feedback (in this case affixing a spirit level to his glasses) coupled with the recruitment of cognitive mechanisms to help regulate what should be automatic, consciously adjusting his balance. In the chapter Sacks writes, “The awareness of relative position of trunk and limbs, derived from receptors in the joints and tendons - was only really defined (and named ‘proprioception’) in the 1890s; the complex mechanisms and controls by which our bodies are properly aligned and balanced in space - these have only been defined in our own century, and still hold many mysteries (Sacks 1985)*.”

People with low back pain (LBP) have, on average, reduced lumbar range of movement and proprioception; they also move more slowly compared to people without LBP (Laird et al. 2014). Chronic back and hand pain are associated with deficits in body schema, suggesting that improving it may be a component of AT pain reduction (Gilpin, Moseley, Stanton, & Newport, 2015; Moseley & Flor, 2012)*.

The largest AT study to date was a randomized controlled trial with 579 participants led by Dr. Paul Little (Little et al., 2008). The so-called “ATEAM” trial evaluated the economic viability of therapeutic massage, exercise, and lessons in the AT for treating persistent low* back pain, comparing the costs and outcomes at 12 months of courses of 6 and 24 lessons in the Alexander technique, 6 sessions of massage, and a general practitioner's prescription for home-based exercise with a nurse follow-up for patients with chronic or recurrent non-specific back pain in primary care. Exercise and lessons in the Alexander technique, but not massage, remained effective at one year; 24 lessons had the best results (measured in recorded days with and without pain) but six lessons followed by exercise prescription was ‘85% as effective’ as 24 lessons. The combination of six AT lessons followed by exercise was the most cost effective option (Hollinghurst, 2008). AT was viewed as effective by most participants (Yardley et al., 2010). Dr. Little and colleagues suggest the AT is a powerful tool for self-efficacy as participants were able to apply skills learned from lessons to continue independent learning in the 6 lessons plus exercise group (Little et al., 2008).

Martel and colleagues showed plasticity in body schema estimates used for motor control is altered in children and early adolescents with Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD), concluding, “Although DCD has long been considered a motor disorder, our findings suggest that children and early adolescents with DCD have trouble when comparing their predicted and received feedback, leading to difficulties in their body estimate.” Children with DCD experience difficulties in adjusting their body when their posture is challenged, or when they are asked to run or jump during clinical assessment; these situations require them to access their body representation for action (Martel et al., 2022). Children and adolescents have greater body image plasticity than adults making early intervention important. Physical therapists usually focus their approach on the body rather than motor disorders, working with children to improve their body awareness and find compensatory strategies.

The clinical assessment of the ability to point to or name several body-parts is generally preserved in children with Developmental coordination disorder (DCD). Their preserved motor learning, together with their noted reliance on vision to control hands and tools, point towards a body related deficit. The parietal part of the dorsal stream, involved in the plasticity of the implicit body estimate, might instead be impaired, in keeping with the proposed role of state estimator for the posterior parietal cortex (Medendorp and Heed, 2019; Shadmehr and Krakauer, 2008), and parietal dysfunction in DCD (Debrabant et al., 2016; Kashiwagi et al., 2009; Zwicker et al., 2011). Perceptual problems have been attributed to dys-functioning of the dorsal stream in several developmental disorders (Pisella et al., 2019)*, with parietal but not occipital visuo-spatial dysfunction being particularly involved in DCD (Nobusako et al., 2018; Pisella et al., 2019, 2020). This could indicate that plasticity of the Body Image mostly involves visual information processed in the occipital part of the dorsal stream, which may be intact in DCD (Martel et al. 2022).

Postural Tone and Motor Planning

In order to plan an action, the motor system integrates sensory information from different sources into a coherent model of current body geometry (Gurfinkel, 1994; Head & Holmes, 1911; Medendorp & Heed, 2019). Gurfinkel and colleagues proposed that tone and body schema work together to govern postural organization and provide a foundation for movement and balance (Gurfinkel, 1994; Gurfinkel, Ivanenko Yu, Levik Yu, & Babakova, 1995; Gurfinkel, Levick, Popov, Smetanin, &; Shlikov, 1988). In AT, spatial and body-schema phenomena are thought to be deeply interwoven with tone (Cacciatore et al. 2011). Changes in tone lead to changes in the perception of the structural organization of the body, and an improved body percept facilitates further improvements in tone (Loram, 2017).

Using EMG to record muscle activity, one study found AT lessons decreased axial stiffness by 29% on average in subjects with low back pain while resisting rotation, leading the authors to suggest that dynamic modulation of postural tone can be enhanced through long-term training in the AT (Cacciatore et al., 2011). As the research on AT and tone indicates, changes in distribution and adaptivity of tone affect movement and balance. In a broad sense, tone is a foundational system that affects other aspects of motor behavior.

Changes in tone from AT-based instructions suggest that executive function can influence tone and body schema (Cohen et al., 2015, 2020). This process may be related to what movement scientists call kinesthetic motor imagery (Chiew, LaConte, & Graham, 2012), although such studies mostly examine the mental representation of overt movement rather than mental representations of desired postural states (c.f. Gildea, van den Hoorn, Hides, & Hodges, 2015).

Changes in body schema could also underlie changes in the adaptivity of tone. Postural tone (possibly in interaction with body schema) forms the central node of the current theoretical model of the AT proposed by Cataccorie et al. Because body schema is used as a central reference for posture, movement planning, and execution; its accuracy, precision, and integration with the motor system are likely to have widespread motor effects (Haggard & Wolpert, 2005; Ivanenko et al., 2011). Postural tone and body schema are similar in that both concern neurophysiological states rather than sequential processes like action and both are particularly suited to influence motor behavior in general (Gurfinkel, 2009; Ivanenko & Gurfinkel, 2018; Medendorp & Heed, 2019). While there is no direct evidence that AT changes body schema, innumerous observations from practitioners and students support its relevance to AT practice.

A variety of non-physical outcomes of AT lessons including improved perceived general wellbeing and increased confidence were found by Kinsey et al. (2021). While physical effects of the AT are measurable, albeit subtle, non-physical outcomes are often reported and are difficult to quantify. Because AT practitioners and students philosophically conceive of the mind-body as an integrated whole, this interaction is not surprising. Kinsey and colleagues make two informed theory statements on how non-physical outcomes can be generated by AT lessons: because the mind-body connection “improvements in physical wellbeing lead directly to psychological well-being,” and “an experience of mind-body integration leads people to apply AT skills to non-physical situations” (Kinsey et al. 2021).

Research that supports these theory statements can be found in the foundational work in AT & Parkinson’s (PD) done by Dr. Chloe Stallibrass and colleagues at the University of Westminster. A pilot study (Stallibrass 1997) indicated that, in conjunction with drug therapy, AT could benefit people with PD. In a follow-up study (Stallibrass et al 2002), ninety-three people with idiopathic Parkinson’s disease were assigned into three groups (AT, massage, and no additional care) and assessed using the ‘Self-assessment Parkinson’s Disease Disability Scale’ (SPDDS), ‘Attitudes to Self-scale’ and ‘Beck Depression Inventory’ (BDI). An additional study (Stallibrass 2005) investigated retention of skills from the main study by voluntary follow up self-assessment questionnaire responses. The AT group improved compared with the no additional intervention group, pre-intervention to post-intervention on SPDDS tests and was comparatively less depressed post-intervention, supporting evidence that lessons in the AT are likely to lead to sustained benefit for people with Parkinson's disease and that AT lessons can have non-physical outcomes. AT is particularly relevant in the interplay of cognition, behavior, and the initiation of movement (Stallibrass et al 2002).

Primary symptoms of PD are muscular rigidity, slowness, tremor, and postural instability. Functional-imaging studies have shown that akinesia (difficult initiating movement) was associated with decreased activation of the supplementary motor area and that tremors are associated with abnormalities of a neural system involving the pons, midbrain, cerebellum, and thalamus (Carlson & Bricket, 2022).

The possible connections among body schema, postural tone, and motor control suggest an intriguing area of potential research on changes in body schema through AT instruction. More recently, there have been several related studies led by or involving Dr. Rajal Cohen of the University of Idaho that quantitatively measured differences in axial tone, postural sway, postural uprightness, and step initiation before and after AT instruction among PD sufferers and healthy individuals. Cohen et. al (2015) showed that distinct effects on posture and mobility were apparent in several measures after Parkinson’s patients were given brief verbal postural instructions “Lighten Up,” based on common AT direction, and “Pull Up,” based on popular concepts of effortful posture correction. Lighten Up instructions reduced lateral center of pressure (CoP) displacement and increased smoothness of CoP path relative to both other conditions. Both axial rigidity (peak torque) and postural sway amplitude were lower with Lighten Up instructions than in either other condition.

Conclusion

These inquiries all have interesting implications for biological psychology and the philosophical mind-body problem. In light of recent research we can now make educated theory statements about previously unanswerable questions including: How does the nonverbal transfer of psychomotor information between teacher and student take place during AT lessons and related modalities? What is going on in any subsequent changes?

The answer to the former is most likely a combination of systems including mirror neurons and other bio-feedback mechanisms related to interoception and proprioception that are recruited in the teaching/learning of the AT. With additional feedback from a teacher, interoception and proprioception is enhanced in the student, likely causing modulation of body schema and postural tone to also be enhanced. Postural tone is a foundational system that affects all other aspects of motor behavior. A safe conclusion to draw seems to be that the AT positively affects postural tone and therefore indirectly positively affects all other aspects of motor behavior. This in turn can have non-physical outcomes because of the nature of the mindbody. Taken together the conclusion is strikingly similar to Alexander’s basic assertion that ‘use’ of the self affects the ‘functioning’ of the self; however the relationship is more reciprocally intertwined than Alexander’s idea of ‘Conscious Control of the Individual’ top down formulation lets on.

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Websites:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/alexander-technique/

See also

Austin, John H.M., and Pearl Ausubel. "Enhanced respiratory muscular function in normal adults after lessons in proprioceptive musculoskeletal education without exercises." Chest, vol. 102, no. 2, Aug. 1992, pp. 486+

Baime, M. (2016). In chronic nonspecific neck pain, adding Alexander Technique lessons or acupuncture to usual care improved pain. Annals of Internal Medicine, 164(6), JC29–JC29. https://doi.org/10.7326/ACPJC-2016-164-6-029

Becker, Copeland, S. L., Botterbusch, E. L., & Cohen, R. G. (2018). Preliminary evidence for feasibility, efficacy, and mechanisms of Alexander technique group classes for chronic neck pain. Complementary Therapies in Medicine, 39, 80–86. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ctim.2018.05.012

Dennis Ronald J, Functional Reach Improvement in Normal Older Women After Alexander Technique Instruction, The Journals of Gerontology: Series A, Volume 54, Issue 1, January 1999, Pages M8-M11 https://doi.org/10.1093/gerona/54.1.M8

Eldred, J., Hopton, A., Donnison, E., Woodman, J., & MacPherson, H. (2015). Teachers of the alexander technique in the UK and the people who take their lessons: A national cross-sectional survey. Complementary Therapies in Medicine, 23(3), 451-461. doi:https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ctim.2015.04.006

Gleeson, M., Sherrington, C., Lo, S., & Keay, L. (2015). Can the alexander technique improve balance and mobility in older adults with visual impairments? A randomized controlled trial. Clinical Rehabilitation, 29(3), 244-260. https://doi.org/10.1177/0269215514542636

Gross M., Ravichandra R., Cohen Rajal., Mello B., Alexander Technique (AT) Group Classes: Feasible Intervention for Care Partners of People Living With Parkinson's, Archives of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, Volume 100, Issue 10, 2019, Page e42, ISSN 0003-9993, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.apmr.2019.08.111.

Kamalikhah T., Morowatisharifabad M. Rezaei-Moghaddam F., Ghasemi M. Gholami-Fesharaki M. Goklani S. Alexander Technique Training Coupled With an Integrative Model of Behavioral Prediction in Teachers With Low Back Pain Iran Red Crescent Medical Journal 2016 Sep; 18(9): e31218. Published online 2016 Aug 9. doi: 10.5812/ircmj.31218

Klein, SD; Bayard, C; Wolf, U (24 October 2014). "The Alexander Technique and musicians: a systematic review of controlled trials". BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine. 14: 414. doi:10.1186/1472-6882-14-414. PMC 4287507. PMID 25344325.

Kinsey D., Glover L., Wadephul F., How does the Alexander Technique lead to psychological and non-physical outcomes? A realist review, European Journal of Integrative Medicine, Volume 46, 2021, ISSN 1876-3820, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.eujim.2021.101371

Hafezi M., Rahemi Z., Ajorpaz N.M., Izadi F.S., The effect of the Alexander Technique on pain intensity in patients with chronic low back pain: A randomized controlled trial, Journal of Bodywork and Movement Therapies, Volume 29, 2022, Pages 54-59, ISSN 1360-8592, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jbmt.2021.09.025.

Pramod P. Reddy, Trisha P. Reddy, Jennifer Roig-Francoli, Lois Cone, Bezalel Sivan, W. Robert DeFoor, Krishnanath Gaitonde, Paul H. Noh, The Impact of the Alexander Technique on Improving Posture and Surgical Ergonomics During Minimally Invasive Surgery: Pilot Study, The Journal of Urology, Volume 186, Issue 4, 2011, Pages 1658-1662, ISSN 0022-5347, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.juro.2011.04.013

Preece, S.J., Jones, R.K., Brown, C.A. et al. Reductions in co-contraction following neuromuscular re-education in people with knee osteoarthritis. BMC Musculoskeletal Disorders 17, 372 (2016). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12891-016-1209-2

Schlinger, Marcy Feldenkrais Method, Alexander Technique, and Yoga—Body Awareness Therapy in the Performing Arts Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation Clinics REVIEW ARTICLE| VOLUME 17, ISSUE 4, P865-875, NOVEMBER 01, 2006

Stern J. The Alexander Technique: Mindfulness in Movement Relieves Suffering Alternative and Complementary Therapies Volume: 27 Issue 1: February 11, 2021 10-13. http://doi.org/10.1089/act.2020.29307.jcs

Tarr, Jennifer Educating with the hands: working on the body/self in Alexander Technique Sociology of Health & Illness Vol. 33 No. 2 2011 ISSN 0141–9889, pp. 252–265doi: 10.1111/j.1467-9566.2010.01283.x

Valentine, E. R., Fitzgerald, D. F. P., Gorton, T. L., Hudson, J. A., & Symonds, E. R. C. (1995). The Effect of Lessons in the Alexander Technique on Music Performance in High and Low Stress Situations. Psychology of Music, 23(2), 129–141. https://doi.org/10.1177/0305735695232002

Woods C., Glover L., Woodman J. An Education for Life: The Process of Learning the Alexander Technique Kinesiology Review Volume 9: Issue 3 14 Aug 2020 https://doi.org/10.1123/kr.2020-0020 68.129.197.221 (talk) 22:22, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

|}

Perhaps someone can help format edit

Peter seems to be right but formatting is in error. Also for references:

Alexander Technique is a movement education method.

"cognitive-motor learning program centering on proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation (AT); This study evaluated combined cognitive-motor program based on somatic movement  methods; Alexander technique and Bartenieff fundamental"

Kim, S., (2018). Exploring the field application of combined cognitive-motor program with mild cognitive impairment elderly patients. Journal of Exercise Rehabilitation, 14(5), 817–820. https://doi.org/10.12965/jer.1836418.209

If editors have having difficulty categorizing AT, it's very similar to MBSR, see:

Anheyer, D., Haller, H., Barth, J., Lauche, R., Dobos, G., & Cramer, H. (2017). Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction for Treating Low Back Pain: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis. Annals of internal medicine, 166(11), 799–807. https://doi.org/10.7326/M16-1997

The International Somatic Movement Education and Therapy Association (ISMETA) lists AT courses as somatic education

https://ismeta.org/ismeta-approved-training-programs#!biz/id/537cd5c1c260b1d221f946eb 173.54.182.4 (talk) 19:17, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

What does this mean? -Roxy the dog 19:19, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

There's been a mislabeling of at as alternative medicine/ therapy. Is is a somatic education method not a therapy as described in the sources I listed. Also the NHS cited in the wiki also says this 173.54.182.4 (talk) 19:23, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Mb look up psychomotor learning? 173.54.182.4 (talk) 19:28, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Also sometimes referred to as neuromuscular or psychophysical education/re-education. In an case it's not an alternative medicine system 173.54.182.4 (talk) 19:31, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

We cannot use such a ref to suggest that AT isn't Alt-Med. -Roxy the dog 19:31, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Looking at the edit history of the page it was only added days ago with no good justification 173.54.182.4 (talk) 19:33, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

That label seems to have been removed multiple times by editors. 173.54.182.4 (talk) 19:34, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

curious as to why editor's decided to mark the page alternative medicine when it had been attempted to be marked that multiple times and reverted previously? 173.54.182.4 (talk) 19:38, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

the more I'm looking at the recent editing history on the wiki the more it looks like it needs a twinkle revert to a month or two ago at the very least.... 173.54.182.4 (talk) 19:38, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

it seems like editors equate at to esoteric things like energy work? an easy mistake to make upon superficial review 173.54.182.4 (talk) 19:45, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Your ip is very similar to one that was just blocked. This article is under sanctions that require editors to be well versed in all relevant policies. If you're unrelated to the blocked ip, it's highly recommended that you work on other topics while you learn Wikipedia's policies. --Hipal (talk) 20:38, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

what blocked does a blocked ip have to do with what I said? 173.54.182.4 (talk) 20:39, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

I was alerted to changes made to the wiki recently in error by the editor Peter B. 173.54.182.4 (talk) 20:41, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

See WP:SOCK. Please reconsider what you're doing here. --Hipal (talk) 20:44, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

what exactly are you insinuating? Do you have nothing to say about the concerns on the wiki page? 173.54.182.4 (talk) 20:50, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

now I'm sanctioned from editing what exactly is going on with the editors on this Wiki?? 173.54.182.4 (talk) 20:56, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

the ip in question is in Brooklyn NY, that's over 50 miles from here in NJ; is this seriously how the editors behave on towards people attempting to improve a poorly written wiki that doesn't represent the subject matter accurately? 173.54.182.4 (talk) 22:05, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Bias on display

Editors don't want to read the truth in my well sourced edit and keep removing it. There's a citation for that statement Sgerbic, look it up!

Are you writing a chapter for a pro-AT book or writing for a Wikipedia page? Wikipedia editors never start out with "AT is in the interesting position of having been practiced for over 125 years" and never continue with "a wide variety of educational and medical settings yet a proper biological understanding of the mechanisms underlying AT has only recently become possible. This was also the case for many of the early psychotropic drugs that were discovered serendipitously with no clear explanation for their purported mechanisms of action". I stopped reading at this point. Sgerbic 68.129.197.221 (talk) 22:20, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Systematic reviews of trials (Woodman & Moore, 2011; Ernst & Canter, 2003) found good research for the effectiveness of Alexander Technique lessons in Parkinson’s-associated disability. According to the National Health Service (UK), lessons in the AT may help one carry out everyday tasks more easily and improve feelings about Parkinson's disability. Medication often alleviates some Parkinsonian motor symptoms, but it does not cure them and may make aspects of postural control worse (Contin et al., 1996). Movement based embodied cognitive practices (MECPs) share underlying principles with AT (Posadzki, 2009) and have similar effects on PD disability (Cohen et al., 2015) as Yoga, Qigong and Tai Chi which have also shown promise in alleviating symptoms associated with PD disability (Ban et al., 2021; Li et al., 2012). 68.129.197.221 (talk) 22:43, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

So maybe AT can be called a MECP? Alternative medicine isn't correct. 173.54.182.4 (talk) 22:23, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Nothing to see here (but bias). (WP:OR by page blocked IP) See WP:NOT. -Roxy the dog 22:33, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

What is going on with this wiki? Seems to be an edit war going on between AT sympathizers and skeptical editors both making very questionable edits to this wiki. Any thoughts? 107.122.161.16 (talk) 20:47, 13 December 2022 (UTC) Probably needs WP:ECP. Bon courage (talk) 20:56, 13 December 2022 (UTC) I think that is a great start Bon courage. Sgerbic (talk) 21:48, 13 December 2022 (UTC) seems like lots of misbehaving from several parties, shame the wiki has suffered as a result. It looks like a weirdo energy work instead of a mindful physical education method which its clearly described as by the NHS source cited in the wiki and other sources I mentioned and it appears other editors have left some similar comments recently 173.54.182.4 (talk) 21:03, 13 December 2022 (UTC) I've requested article protection. --Hipal (talk) 00:23, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Is at popular? bon courage just removed popular... See eldred et all 400k lessons per years: Eldred, J., Hopton, A., Donnison, E., Woodman, J., & MacPherson, H. (2015). Teachers of the Alexander Technique in the UK and the people who take their lessons: a national cross-sectional survey. Complementary Therapies in Medicine, 23(3), 451-461. Also is taught and hundreds of universities: https://www.amsatonline.org/aws/AMSAT/pt/sp/educational_institutions 173.54.182.4 (talk) 22:17, 13 December 2022 (UTC) I can't see anything in the source that says it is popular - that seems to be just an editor's interpretation. At a real stretch, you might argue that it is popular in the UK, but how many would qualify it as "popular" in that editor's opinion, and would that agree with other peoples opinions? Wikipedia's voice should not be used to make claims like that unless they come directly from a reliable source.--Gronk Oz (talk) 22:41, 13 December 2022 (UTC) Seems like a moving target for popular. Wikipedia is voice is being used to make a lot of claims about Alexander technique that are not verified 173.54.182.4 (talk) 23:57, 13 December 2022 (UTC) there are hundreds of universities in the US that teach at 173.54.182.4 (talk) 00:05, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Excuse me IP - I removed "popular" not Bon courage. And as I said in my edit summary, the body of the article does not mention AT being popular with some kind of reputable citation. Find a source for it and it might stay. Sgerbic (talk) 22:47, 13 December 2022 (UTC) what about the sources that I left they're not exhaustive but surely enough to show that the at is not fringe, it's far more popular than any of the Therapies listed as fringe 173.54.182.4 (talk) 23:59, 13 December 2022 (UTC) I see that you have a very one-sided editing history on this page that is borderline vandalism 173.54.182.4 (talk) 00:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Who are you talking to? Me? Sgerbic (talk) 01:47, 14 December 2022 (UTC) yes. 173.54.182.4 (talk) 22:25, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Looking good Thx editors including bc, it's looking pretty good now! The only thing is that perhaps the last paragraph of the health effects section is a little excessively long and redundant. How many times does it have to say insufficient evidence? 107.122.161.16 (talk) 17:36, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Lasted all of one day before being marked Alt. med again... 141.157.200.57 (talk) 19:13, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Better Sources for Performing Arts & AT Statements Ruth Rootberg (2011) “End-gaining”and the“Means-Whereby”: Discovering the best process to achieve goals of vocal training and pedagogy using the Alexander Technique, Voice and Speech Review, 7:1, 157-163, DOI: 10.1080/23268263.2011.10739536 Klein, S.; Bayard, C; Wolf, U (2014). “The Alexander Technique and musicians: a systematic review of controlled trials”. BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine. 14: 414. doi:10.1186/1472-6882-14-414. PMC 4287507. PMID 25344325. Schlinger, M. (2006). Feldenkrais Method, Alexander Technique, and Yoga—Body Awareness Therapy in the Performing Arts. Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation Clinics of North America, 17(4), 865–875. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.pmr.2006.07.002 Davies, J. (2020) Alexander Technique classes improve pain and performance factors in tertiary music students Journal of Bodywork and Movement Therapies Vol. 24 Issue 1 p.1-7 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jbmt.2019.04.006 141.157.200.57 (talk) 19:07, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Draft something. Bon courage (talk) 19:20, 15 December 2022 (UTC) A 2014 systematic review of trials concluded that AT sessions may improve performance anxiety in musicians (Klein et al. 2014). Some studies have found AT classes for music students may beneficially influence performance related pain and the associated risk factors of poor posture, excess muscle tension, stress and performance anxiety. (Davies 2020, Valentine et al., 1995). There were also reports of improvements to instrumental technique, performance level and practice effectiveness. Relatedly, AT is commonly taught at Conservatory in Drama, Music, and Dance departments. Valentine, E. R., Fitzgerald, D. F. P., Gorton, T. L., Hudson, J. A., & Symonds, E. R. C. (1995). The Effect of Lessons in the Alexander Technique on Music Performance in High and Low Stress Situations. Psychology of Music, 23(2), 129–141. https://doi.org/10.1177/0305735695232002 141.157.200.57 (talk) 19:26, 15 December 2022 (UTC) "Postural issues are addressed through the Alexander Technique. Widely accepted in the performing arts community, this technique is currently part of the curriculum at many training schools, including the Julliard School in New York, the American Conservatory Theater in San Francisco, and the Royal Academy of Music in London" D'Antoni ML, Harvey PL, Fried MP (September 1995). "Alternative medicine: does it play a role in the management of voice disorders?". J Voice. 9 (3): 308–11. doi:10.1016/s0892-1997(05)80239-5. PMID 8541975. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 19:32, 15 December 2022 (UTC) D'Antoni et al. doesn't explicitly state anywhere AT is Alt. Med. Just read it and AT is examined but so are Alt med. things; D'Antoni et al. doesn't explicitly state anywhere AT is Alt. Med. D'Antoni ML, Harvey PL, Fried MP (September 1995). "Alternative medicine: does it play a role in the management of voice disorders?". J Voice. 9 (3): 308–11. doi:10.1016/s0892-1997(05)80239-5. PMID 8541975. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 19:35, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Damaging revert In this[1] edit, LilianaUwU removed some WP:MEDRS sourcing for health claims, adding in unsourced content and a whole section of problem content tagged as incomprehensible. What is going on? Bon courage (talk) 08:07, 14 December 2022 (UTC) That's misleading. Bon Courage removed a large chunk of the article and LilianaUwU restored it. - Palpable (talk) 16:14, 14 December 2022 (UTC) I think you should look again User:Palpable. BC's assessment is correct. -Roxy the dog 16:24, 14 December 2022 (UTC) There were lots of different edits, adding the good stuff and cutting the crap. All of which were reverted at once. Or do you think something of value was lost Palpable? Bon courage (talk) 16:37, 14 December 2022 (UTC) @Bon courage Your version of the article is fine. I was trying to do damage control with the supposed single-purpose accounts and IPs and chose the wrong revision to do so. LilianaUwU (talk / contribs) 19:22, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Okay, understood - it's been a bit confusing with all the IP action. Hopefully now page protection will control this. Bon courage (talk) 19:26, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Looks much better after revert and rewrite. The source for at as alternative treatment for performing artists doesn't mention AT? 173.54.182.4 (talk) 20:10, 14 December 2022 (UTC) If you mean PMID:8541975, it does explicitly discuss AT. Bon courage (talk) 02:14, 15 December 2022 (UTC) It appears this article says nothing about AT and is behind a pay-wall also 141.157.200.57 (talk) 15:36, 15 December 2022 (UTC) This one too is better than the current source: Klein, S.; Bayard, C; Wolf, U (2014). “The Alexander Technique and musicians: a systematic review of controlled trials”. BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine. 14: 414. doi:10.1186/1472-6882-14-414. PMC 4287507. PMID 25344325. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 17:30, 15 December 2022 (UTC) I've read this now and it does not name AT as Alt. Med. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 21:29, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Ruth Rootberg (2011) “End-gaining”and the“Means-Whereby”: Discovering the best process to achieve goals of vocal training and pedagogy using the Alexander Technique, Voice and Speech Review, 7:1, 157-163, DOI: 10.1080/23268263.2011.10739536 173.54.182.4 (talk) 20:16, 14 December 2022 (UTC) There's a better source =) 173.54.182.4 (talk) 20:16, 14 December 2022 (UTC) AT is a movement-based embodied cognitive practices (MECPs); not Alt Med. Schmalzl, L., Crane-Godreau, M., & Payne, P. (2014). Movement-based embodied contemplative practices: Definitions and paradigms. Frontiers in Human Neuroscience, https://doi.org/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00205 Cacciatore, T. W., Johnson, P. M., & Cohen, R. G. (2020). Potential Mechanisms of the Alexander Technique: Toward a Comprehensive Neurophysiological Model, Kinesiology Review, 9(3), 199-213. https://journals.humankinetics.com/view/journals/krj/9/3/article-p199.xml Kim, S., (2018). Exploring the field application of combined cognitive-motor program with mild cognitive impairment elderly patients. Journal of Exercise Rehabilitation, 14(5), 817–820. https://doi.org/10.12965/jer.1836418.209 Cohen R., Gurfinkel, V. S., Kwak, E., Warden, A. C., & Horak, F. B. (2015). Lighten Up: Specific Postural Instructions Affect Axial Rigidity and Step Initiation in Patients With Parkinson’s Disease. Neurorehabilitation and Neural Repair, 29(9), 878–888. https://doi.org/10.1177/1545968315570323 141.157.200.57 (talk) 19:05, 15 December 2022 (UTC) I'm afraid this, and all the commentary, looks like Gish gallop. --Hipal (talk) 19:23, 15 December 2022 (UTC) I am trying to make it bite size Hipal. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 19:29, 15 December 2022 (UTC) The problem is that you are throwing lots of bite sized threads out without finishing each one first. That just creates an overload without contributing to very much article improvement. Those threads will likely end up archived without much resolution. That's what happens here. Instead, start and thread and finish it before starting a new thread, that is, if you really want success -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC) It appears there are multiple editors here? Threads are on specific different topics. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 19:36, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Which threads need a reply from me? 141.157.200.57 (talk) 19:36, 15 December 2022 (UTC) I'd focus on establishing that you understand relevant policy and are here to work cooperatively with others. Right now, you appear to be a WP:SOCK of a blocked editor. You appear to be making arguments without understanding the relevant policy, driven by your personal point of view. --Hipal (talk) 19:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC) There's a lot of accusations flying around since I started editing this wiki; for the record I've been nothing but cooperative Hipal. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 19:53, 15 December 2022 (UTC) What you're doing is not cooperative. --Hipal (talk) 20:01, 15 December 2022 (UTC) AT is a movement-based embodied cognitive practices (MECPs); not Alt Med. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 20:54, 15 December 2022 (UTC) No one seems to have actually considered that AT is miscategozied? For example see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilates Superficially, they are very similar but no Alt. Med. label is here? This should be a model for the AT wiki: is a type of mind-body exercise developed in the early 20th century by German physical trainer Joseph Pilates, Pilates developed in the aftermath of the late 19th century physical culture of exercising in order to alleviate ill health. There is however only limited evidence to support the use of Pilates to alleviate problems such as lower back pain. Evidence from studies show that while Pilates improves balance, it has not been shown to be an effective treatment for any medical condition other than evidence that regular Pilates sessions can help muscle conditioning in healthy adults, when compared to doing no exercise. Pilates is not professionally regulated. In October 2000 "Pilates" was ruled a generic term by a U.S. federal court, making it free for unrestricted use. The term is still capitalized in writing, due to its origin from the proper name of the method's founder. As a result of the court ruling, the Pilates Method Alliance was formed as a professional association for the Pilates community. Its purpose was to provide an international organization to connect teachers, teacher trainers, studios, and facilities dedicated to preserving and enhancing the legacy of Joseph H. Pilates and his exercise method by establishing standards, encouraging unity, and promoting professionalism. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 21:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC) AT is a type of mind-body education method developed by FM Alexander. etc... 141.157.200.57 (talk) 21:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Also see art therapy, music therapy, and dance therapy for relevant templates. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 21:52, 15 December 2022 (UTC) How many time must the alt medicine tag be removed? AT is not listed as alt med or fringe for the umpteenth time this wiki is not alt med. 173.54.182.4 (talk) 22:24, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Sources say otherwise. It may not be "just" AM. Bon courage (talk) 02:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC) It's only considered AM by sources with little knowledge or validity in the field of complementary medicine; complementary medicine doesn't offer alternatives to standard care but complements it. Editors seem to want to imply it's a seperate system like Chinese medicine etc. Also see the label has been removed multiple times. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 15:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC) It's not a "system" like TCM, but multiple strong sources over the years have said it's a kind of alternative medicine/therapy. Bon courage (talk) 15:37, 15 December 2022 (UTC) What is the definition of Alternative medicine in view of wikipedia, as far as I know it's a system that is parallel using alternative facts (pseudoscience) I don't think there is any evidence of this for AT. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 15:52, 15 December 2022 (UTC) As evidence, you can clearly see most papers about AT are publish in journals like BMC Complementary Medicine and Therapies (https://bmccomplementmedtherapies.biomedcentral.com/) 141.157.200.57 (talk) 15:55, 15 December 2022 (UTC) https://bmccomplementmedtherapies.biomedcentral.com/articles?query=alexander+technique&searchType=journalSearch&tab=keyword 141.157.200.57 (talk) 15:56, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Sources? I see one loosely quoted source by Ernst (who sees everything as AM so how reliable is he?) but that's it. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 15:37, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Well PMID:8541975 is quite explicit too. Bon courage (talk) 15:42, 15 December 2022 (UTC) "alternative practices discussed are limited to behavioral therapies" The previous banner was more accurate according to your source. Also AT isn't listed as AM in various wiki and other lists, this is telling as to the error here. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 15:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Doesn't really say what's implied in the wiki bc.. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 15:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC) What's needed is sources which discuss the categorization. The Ernst source is useful because it just does that. I'm not sure AT is pseudoscience, pace List of topics characterized as pseudoscience. Bon courage (talk) 16:10, 15 December 2022 (UTC) I see Ernst but that is one source among dozens says the opposite. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 16:29, 15 December 2022 (UTC) No known reliable source says the opposite. Bon courage (talk) 16:34, 15 December 2022 (UTC) AT is named as a "Movement-based embodied contemplative practice"in Frontiers in Human Neuroscience by Schmalzl, L., Crane-Godreau, M., & Payne, P. (2014) 141.157.200.57 (talk) 16:35, 15 December 2022 (UTC) AT described as a mindful movement practice: Stern J. (2021). The Alexander Technique: Mindfulness in Movement Relieves Suffering Alternative and Complementary Therapies Volume: 27 Issue 1: February 11, 10-13. http://doi.org/10.1089/act.2020.29307.jcs 141.157.200.57 (talk) 16:36, 15 December 2022 (UTC) AT called body awareness technique: Schlinger, Marcy (2006). Feldenkrais Method, Alexander Technique, and Yoga—Body Awareness Therapy in the Performing Arts Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation Clinics V.17,4 P865-875 141.157.200.57 (talk) 16:37, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Those are not "opposite". Opposite would be "AT is not alternative medicine". They're also not great sources. Are there other sources which discuss the categorization? Bon courage (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC) See below 141.157.200.57 (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC) In any case there, it is clear that there is a large body of good sources claiming AT falls outside the label of alternative medicine for multiple reasons. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 16:43, 15 December 2022 (UTC) See psychomotor learning for more info on this subject. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 16:44, 15 December 2022 (UTC) By your classification all "behavioral therapies" should be marked "alternative practices" no? 141.157.200.57 (talk) 16:45, 15 December 2022 (UTC) AT called Neuromuscular re-education Preece, S.J., Jones, R.K., Brown, C.A. et al. (2016). Reductions in co-contraction following neuromuscular re-education in people with knee osteoarthritis. BMC Musculoskeletal Disorders 17, 372. https://doi.org/10.1186/s12891-016-1209-2 AT called proprioceptive musculoskeletal education Austin, John H.M., and Pearl Ausubel. (1992) Enhanced respiratory muscular function in normal adults after lessons in proprioceptive musculoskeletal education without exercises. Chest, vol. 102, no. 2 AT called cognitive motor program: Kim, S., (2018). Exploring the field application of combined cognitive-motor program with mild cognitive impairment elderly patients. Journal of Exercise Rehabilitation, 14(5), 817–820. https://doi.org/10.12965/jer.1836418.209 AT called postural instruction Cohen, Baer, J. L., Ravichandra, R., Kral, D., McGowan, C., & Cacciatore, T. W. (2020). Lighten Up! Postural Instructions Affect Static and Dynamic Balance in Healthy Older Adults. Innovation in Aging, 4(2), igz056–igz056. https://doi.org/10.1093/geroni/igz056 141.157.200.57 (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC) None of them say anything about "falling outside" alternative medicine. They seem to call it a hodgepodge of different things between them, Meanwhile we have authoritative sources saying it is AM. Bon courage (talk) 16:46, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Those are all authoritative sources says AT is something else; saying it is something else by definition means it falls outside AM. The only source I see in support is Ernst? 141.157.200.57 (talk) 17:07, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Most sources in peer-reviewed journals says it's a movement education or psychophysical/neuromuscular education method, the NHS says AT lessons are taught by teachers (not therapist, practitioners etc.) and as far as I can see teachers make no claims to cure anything or that it is medical at all. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 17:10, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Hello 141.157.200.57. Are you in fact 68.129.197.221? - Roxy the dog 17:12, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Who are you? 141.157.200.57 (talk) 17:14, 15 December 2022 (UTC) And why are you trying to derail this thread? 141.157.200.57 (talk) 17:14, 15 December 2022 (UTC) It appears there have been attempts to hide a relevant post from that ip? BC this is the contents of the Ernst citation? (Redacted)141.157.200.57 (talk) 17:26, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Hello 141.157.200.57. Are you in fact 68.129.197.221? I'm Roxy. You can tell from my sig. - Roxy the dog 17:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC) If you keep violating copyrights, you can expect to find yourself permanently removed from the Project. Bon courage (talk) 17:37, 15 December 2022 (UTC) What copyright? I did not even post it I copied it from another editors post but it's only the relevant section of a book, not the entire work and I imagine it is helpful in knowing the contents of contentious (by looking at the page history) citation in question? It seems like the statements in the wiki that use this as a source stray pretty far from the original source. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 17:40, 15 December 2022 (UTC) You have been warned. Read WP:COPYVIO carefully. The WMF takes this very seriously. Bon courage (talk) 17:43, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Fine, what about the wiki problems? 141.157.200.57 (talk) 17:48, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Also I attempted to add wikiproject mind-body to the category, can you help with that? I seem to have done it wrong. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 17:49, 15 December 2022 (UTC) This label is not appropriate; AT is not fringe as is discussed repeatedly on the talk page. It doesn't fit this banner. Template:Alternative medicine sidebar 141.157.200.57 (talk) 18:07, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Although the Lighten Up papers rely on some of the same ideas underlying AT, they are emphatically NOT studies of AT. "Lighten Up" is a study of postural instruction. AT is a broader set of principles and practices. -Rajal Cohen 50.37.96.107 (talk) 20:44, 15 December 2022 (UTC) "Movement-based embodied contemplative practice" is what Cohen calls AT in the paper. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 23:16, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Alternative medicine is part of fringe medical practices. Now please stop bludgeoning this page. You are posting as if you're on speed. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:38, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Kindly refrain from personal attacks per wiki policy. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 18:46, 15 December 2022 (UTC) If you can't keep up with me that's not really my problem is it? 141.157.200.57 (talk) 18:46, 15 December 2022 (UTC) AT is not Alternative medicine, that's the point. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 18:51, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Reliable sources classify it as AM. Period. Stop harping on that. It's disruptive and will only get all your IPs blocked. We may have to protect this talk page so that only experienced and serious editors can comment here. Is that really what you want? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:54, 15 December 2022 (UTC) I see many reliable sources saying AT is not AM; I see Ernst and that's about it saying AT is AM 141.157.200.57 (talk) 18:59, 15 December 2022 (UTC) False. No source yet produced says "AT is not AM". This is just editorial inference. Bon courage (talk) 19:03, 15 December 2022 (UTC) See new section related this is getting confusing to follow here. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 19:08, 15 December 2022 (UTC) They classify it as other things, that's not inference. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 23:17, 15 December 2022 (UTC) What happened to alt therapy banner? What happened to the alt therapy banner that is more fitting and less jarring when you first open the wiki page? 107.127.46.30 (talk) 18:49, 15 December 2022 (UTC) It is on the article page and doesn't belong on this talk page. I replaced it with a link to it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:53, 15 December 2022 (UTC) No this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alexander_Technique&diff=1127452849&oldid=1127366534 141.157.200.57 (talk) 18:58, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Oh! I misunderstood you. I see it was exchanged for the banner it was pointing to. Other AM methods also use that sidebar, so why not here? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:30, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Because it doesn't really represent the AT accurately. The previous one was closer (although also not quite right) but beyond that just quality of life reading the wiki is worse with the huge banner and it's not Alt. med. 141.157.200.57 (talk) 19:54, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Other AM methods also use that sidebar, precisely; why did you answer in the other thread? 141.157.200.57 (talk) 23:18, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Banner Found the right banner The cultivation of interoceptive, proprioceptive and kinesthetic awareness lies at the core of MECPs such as Yoga, Qigong and Tai Chi and likely plays a key role in the efficacy of modern somatic education/therapeutic techniques like the AT (Schlinger, 2006; Schmalzl et al., 2014; Kim, 2018). Mindfulness and MECPs likely share underlying mechanisms with AT (Stern, 2021) and they have similar effects on back pain (Anheyer, 2017; Woodman, 2011) Anheyer, D., Haller, H., Barth, J., Lauche, R., Dobos, G., & Cramer, H. (2017). Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction for Treating Low Back Pain: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis. Annals of internal medicine, 166(11), 799–807. https://doi.org/10.7326/M16-1997 Stern J. (2021). The Alexander Technique: Mindfulness in Movement Relieves Suffering Alternative and Complementary Therapies Volume: 27 Issue 1: February 11, 10-13. http://doi.org/10.1089/act.2020.29307.jcs Schmalzl, L., Crane-Godreau, M., & Payne, P. (2014). Movement-based embodied contemplative practices: Definitions and paradigms. Frontiers in Human Neuroscience, https://doi.org/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00205 Woodman, J. P. Moore, N. R. (2011). Evidence for the effectiveness of Alexander Technique lessons in medical and health-related conditions: a systematic review – International Journal of Clinical Practice VL – 66 IS – 1 SN – 1368-5031 UR https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1742-1241.2011.02817.x Kim, S., (2018). Exploring the field application of combined cognitive-motor program with mild cognitive impairment elderly patients. Journal of Exercise Rehabilitation, 14(5), 817–820. https://doi.org/10.12965/jer.1836418.209 141.157.200.57 (talk) 23:23, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked (Harassment by sockpuppet removed --Hipal (talk) 02:12, 16 December 2022 (UTC)) And your point is? Sgerbic (talk) 00:58, 16 December 2022 (UTC) I've dropped three-month blocks on the two most recent IPs, who were evading the block on this one. I'm going to add semi-protection to the talk page since this is getting ridiculous. User:Roxy the dog, have a great day, and maybe you and some other editors can consider archiving part or all of these conversations. Drmies (talk) 01:38, 16 December 2022 (UTC) NHS statement interpretation "If you want to draw the inference that the advocates making claims off the back of improper evidence are making "false claims", that would be reasonable. Trying to shut that implication down is WP:PROFRINGE POV pushing." -Bon Courage There seems to be some tension between editors as to what evidence is improper. Typically RCTs in peer-reviewed journals have been rejected here as only systematic reviews are allowed for wiki MED:RS. That said editors are very selective about which systematic reviews they want to accept. The NHS statement is based on the systematic review of Woodman and Moore but for some reason is rejected by the editors, for example. Some editors of this page have a hard time discriminating between quackery and legitimate practices well which is documented in their respective talk pages (many of them have been banned for coordinated editing of related pages). 107.127.46.10 (talk) 22:32, 11 January 2023 (UTC) Health effects edits undone New to editing. Not clear why my edit was undone immediately - I replaced an inaccurate and misleading summary of the NHS document cited in Health Effects with a direct quote from their article - by definition this is a more accurate representation of the NHS view. What is the reason for reverting to the original less accurate version? AndyMoorse (talk) 14:26, 4 January 2023 (UTC) Please see WP:C and avoid copy/pasting from sources into Wikipedia. The paraphrase you replaced seems fine. Bon courage (talk) 14:30, 4 January 2023 (UTC) The quote, taken out of the context of the reference and the type of reference that it is, seems an inappropriate summary for this encyclopedia article. --Hipal (talk) 20:12, 4 January 2023 (UTC) Thanks for the reply and also for the introductory material by email which I have read with interest. Regarding your comment, what is your concern about the context of the quote? Thanks AndyMoorse (talk) 10:54, 5 January 2023 (UTC) I'm trying to understand your concern about the context of the quote. As far as I can see it is a self-contained clause the meaning of which is clear whatever comes before or after it. I don't see why we should be concerned about context in this case. Have you seen something I haven't? Could you expand please? AndyMoorse (talk) 14:38, 6 January 2023 (UTC) I don't understand how it's an appropriate summary. Please explain. --Hipal (talk) 01:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC) It is the same phrase as in the source - why would that not be appropriate? The reason I don't like the original is that “some advocates of the technique made claims that were not supported by evidence” can legitimately be taken to mean that the 'advocates' are deliberately making false claims against existing evidence. This meaning is nowhere in the NHS source article. The original makes it clear that the evidence does not exist because the tests have not been done. OK, the original can also be taken to mean what the NHS intended but if the sentence has two legitimate interpretations with totally different meanings then it is a bad sentence. I propose we replace with “there are some claims that haven't been scientifically tested” the meaning of which is clear and accurately reflects the source material. AndyMoorse (talk) 16:02, 7 January 2023 (UTC) If people are making medical claims yet they haven't been tested, that's quackery. So not sure how you think the NHS wording is somehow mild? Bon courage (talk) 16:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC) What do you mean by mild? The question is whether the wiki article accurately reflects the source material. At the moment it might or might not depending how you read it. The 'might not' uncertainty can easily be removed with a form of words closer to that from the source. Why would editors not want to make an edit that removes uncertainty and takes up less space? 2.29.62.60 (talk) 16:48, 7 January 2023 (UTC) Because we use our own words to avoid copyright problems. What we have is accurate, and your objections seem irrational. In particular, your thinking that we should imply "the evidence does not exist because the tests have not been done" is a particular POV; the evidence might not exist irrespective of any testing. Bon courage (talk) 16:52, 7 January 2023 (UTC) I took your point about copyright from your earlier post and have slightly changed the wording in my suggested edit to avoid any copyright problems while keeping the same meaning. The reason for propsing the change is that the existing version is ambiguous - it has at least two possible meanings one of which would not be an accurate reflection of the NHS article. So what 'we' have might be accurate but might not depending how the reader takes it. The ambiguity can easily be avoided by rewording. That seems an extremely rational suggestion to me and the sort of improvement an editor would be looking for? Not sure why this is controvesial. Are we talking at cross purposes about the evidence? I was talking about the original NHS article (the source) not the wiki one. AndyMoorse (talk) 17:45, 7 January 2023 (UTC) There is no ambiguity your wording would disambiguate. And you would leave out that the source says these unevidenced claims are being made by AT "supporters". That would be whitewashing things. Bon courage (talk) 17:46, 7 January 2023 (UTC) I still don't understand how it would be an appropriate summary, and am concerned that there is no attempt to actually summarize with the changes. --Hipal (talk) 18:10, 7 January 2023 (UTC) I take it you consider the existing version to be an appropriate summary so perhaps you could explain why you think that? I have explained at length in the previous discussion why I think that is not the case. AndyMoorse (talk) 15:13, 9 January 2023 (UTC) Fair point about the 'advocates' as the NHS source does mention teachers in the previous paragraph. However, my main concern is: 'not supported by evidence' can mean (a) no evidence exists either to support it or otherwise (b) evidence exists but does not support it. There's your ambiguity - both meanings are possible. The NHS document is quite clearly intended to mean (a) and NOT (b). The difference in these two possible meanings is not trivial. Hence my proposed edit is: 'have not been scientifically tested' which clearly and unambiguously means (a) and not (b) consistent with the source. There's your disambiguation. AndyMoorse (talk) 19:23, 7 January 2023 (UTC) "evidence exists but does not support it" ← this is a weird concept. In medicine in nearly every case there is either evidence (of benefit), or there is not (the default assumption). This is often true after much research has been done. The summary as-is is accurate. (talk) 19:31, 7 January 2023 (UTC) The NHS document is pretty clear that some claims have not been scientifically tested. The summary as-is can be interpreted as meaning something completely different so should be changed. There has been no rebuttal of this point so far by anyone. Therefore, I am proposing we replace: existing - "advocates of the Alexander Technique made claims for it that were not supported by evidence" with proposed - "advocates of the Alexander Technique made claims for it that have not been scientifically tested" No copyright isses because we only change four words. The proposed accurately reflects the source article and is unlikely to be misinterpreted. By the way, there is another even more compelling reason why the existing summary is inaccurate that I have not mentioned yet. I'm hoping to avoid an argument on that since this minor and, to me, obvious edit has already taken a lot of time. AndyMoorse (talk) 15:20, 8 January 2023 (UTC) It's not a good summary. Elsewhere the NHS document says the claims haven't been "properly" tested, and it also mentions that some of the evidence is too weak to consider meaningful. So what we have is a fine summary. Your proposal is closely paraphrasing one cherry-picked bit and risks giving the impression "hey it works! except for the formality of scientific testing". Bon courage (talk) 15:23, 8 January 2023 (UTC) Thank you for your reply. The NHS article does not use the the terms 'weak' or '(not) meaningful' - these are your words and far more negative than anything in the article. The closest term the NHS use is 'limited' (in that more studies are needed) - not the same thing at all. So if this is what you think you are summarising it is no wonder that I'm increasingly concerned (apparently along with a number of others) about the balance of the article. You have still provided no rebuttal or counterargument to the point I have made several times now - let me repeat it again: the sentence as-is allows an interpretation that 'advocates' are making false claims. This inference cannot be made from the NHS article. So it would be an entirely false interpretation of the NHS view. As it stands a proportion of WP readers would be expected to go away from this article with this completely erroneous idea of what the NHS actually say. This would normally be considered a serious criticism for an article claiming to be balanced. It should be straightforward to reword the sentence to avoid this problem altogether without whitewashing. However, you have continued simply to assert that your version (it does appear to be yours) is without problems while providing no counterargument to my point and no alternative suggestions for improvement. AndyMoorse (talk) 15:09, 9 January 2023 (UTC) Again, you're wrong. The article says Supporters of the Alexander technique often claim it can help people with a wide range of health conditions. Some of these claims are supported by scientific evidence, but some have not yet been properly tested. [emphasis mine] and later "There's currently little evidence to suggest the Alexander technique can help improve other health conditions ... [lists 'em]". If you want to draw the inference that the advocates making claims off the back of improper evidence are making "false claims", that would be reasonable. Trying to shut that implication down is WP:PROFRINGE POV pushing. As to "other editors" it's true, we have a lot of AT vendors coming here as WP:SPAs to try and spin the article in favour of their product. Bon courage (talk) 15:27, 9 January 2023 (UTC) Alexander Technique teachers do not claim to cure illness or replace modern medicine with their methods, there is simply no evidence to suggest that AT teachers claim to be practicing alternative medicine. Murbanek97 (talk) 06:11, 10 March 2023 (UTC) Alexander Technique teachers do not claim to cure illness or replace modern medicine with their methods, there is simply no evidence to suggest that AT teachers claim to be practicing alternative medicine. Murbanek97 (talk) 06:09, 10 March 2023 (UTC) Just want to drop in and catch up on this discussion. The changes discussed are with this edit by AndyMoorse [2] Sgerbic (talk) 18:54, 7 January 2023 (UTC) References