Talk:Aleksei Grishin

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 23:52, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

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Belarus stamp featuring Aleksei Grishin and his gold medal at the 2010 Winter Olympics

• ... that Aleksei Grishin put his 2010 Winter Olympics gold medal in aerial freestyle skiing (pictured) up for auction to raise money for another person's surgery?
  • ALT1:... that Aleksei Grishin put his 2010 Winter Olympics gold medal, also the first gold for Belarus in Winter Olympics, up for auction to raise money for another person's surgery?

Source: [1]

• Reviewed: Harry Buckwitz

5x expanded by OhanaUnited (talk). Self-nominated at 02:15, 24 July 2019 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing: - n - lots of unsourced sentences. alternativelly, some sentences have citations that don't support statements i.e. only Belarusian medallist at Salt Lake City.
• Neutral: - ? some wording such as "performance regressed slightly", "tepid start" suggests WP:EDITORIALIZING
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing: - ? "his mother saw a newspaper advertisement seeking" is word for word and doesn't seem like WP:LIMITED

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image eligibility:

• Freely licensed: - n possible licensing issue with flickr as of 2019 BUT ALT1 picture is fine
• Used in article:
• Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 20:21, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Article was over 5x expanded on the 20th (504 to 3287 bytes) and well over 1500 bytes. Hook is cited, short enough and interesting, though the "(pictured)" part in the main hook should be next to his name. I prefer the main hook as ALT1 suggests 2 gold medals were put up for sale. ALT1 would need to be rewritten in my opinion. The nominator has also done a QPQ though QPQ check suggests only one DYK has been given? If that's the case, then kudos for doing a QPQ!

Alternatively, there are some issues in the article. Primarily, there are sentences without citations throughout all 3 paragraphs of the Career section. As for the image itself, Flickr has it under a CC BY-NC 2.0 license, which makes this picture non-free. Therefore, it can't be used in DYk nor Commons. However, as the picture was uploaded on 27 February 2010, I'm not 100% sure whether it was under a free license before 2019. I'll be going through the sources as well for a plagiarism, neutral and accuracy check as well, but this is my first glance through.

Update: Earwig says 15% possible violation which is not bad. I would recommend rephrasing "his mother saw a newspaper advertisement seeking" as it's word for word, and I don't think it falls under WP:LIMITED. For neutrality, some of the wording suggests WP:EDITORIALIZING as it's changing the tone to the facts. "performance regressed slightly", "tepid start", "strong performance" and "performed poorly" are examples. I'm also not sure if adding all the stats for Kyle Nissen at the 2010 olympics is off-topic or not as it's shifts the focus to Nissen then back to Grishin.

As for verifiability, apart from the non-sourced parts, there are parts that are cited but have text next to it that do not appear in the adjacent citation. For example: I do not see any qualifications for the Nagano events in the la84foundation source. If i missed it, please let me know. Similarly, the sochi2014 source doesn't state that he was the only Belarusian medallist at Salt Lake City, nor does the Museum of Contemporary Belarusian Statehood source state the medal's worth (Google translate tells me the site is Belarusian National History Museum, so I think the article has the wrong museum). Finally, there are Original Research issues as well in terms of losing to Dimitri Arkhipov at Deer Valley in 2003, or skipping Apex in 2006.

Overall: the main issue is the verifiability in terms of unsourced information with a bit of inaccuracies and original research. Similairly, there are sentences with citations that are not supported in the sentences like the only medallist in salt lake city for belarus. On minor points, there is a possible off topic part for Kyle Nissen's stats at Vancouver, word for word copy about the newspaper advertisement that I feel doesn't fall under limited, and some non neutral phrasing like "performance regressed slightly" and "tepid start". Finally, I believe there's a licensing issue with the flickr picture, but that'd require confirmation with the Commons uploader. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:50, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict x 2) @MrLinkinPark333: Some sentences weren't cited because it would be needless repetition. Per WP:PAIC, the FIS reference is used for many results across multiple ski seasons. I guess I can move the FIS reference to the end of the paragraph rather than inserting them in the middle to make it compliant with PAIC. I'll cite more FIS references in places that are expecting them. You said "his mother saw a newspaper advertisement seeking" couldn't fall under WP:LIMITED. It is quite difficult to convey differently. I can't switch the mother part to parent without losing accuracy. Can't change newspaper to something else. I can shorten "advertisement" to "ad", but that is just word switching. I can change "seeking" to "looking", but again that is still too close to WP:Close paraphrasing for my comfort. I will take out the summarizing words since some can view it as editorializing. For the 2002 Salt Lake City medal, I'll make the connection better by citing that he won the bronze medal and the medal count (from IOC) was 1 bronze. And I'll continue to improve the article and references. I just had to submit it before 7 days is up (I fear I would forget so it's best to submit first and declare its eligibility).

ALT image: Grishin with Olympics gold medal in aerial freestyle skiing on a 2010 Belarusian stamp

Regarding the QPD check, I wouldn't trust the tool too much. I haven't done DYKs in a long while and most of them are super old (one each in 2007, 2008, 2009, and two in 2014). I stumbled upon his pre-improved article after he was in the news for putting his gold medal up for auction and found that his article is very short despite winning 2 Olympic medals. (And a trip to Belarus back in February this year certainly helped increase my interest in the coverage of this country.) About the competition image, the copyright was automatically checked by Flickr upload bot at the time of the upload. It is not uncommon for Flickr contributors to change their licensing after the upload. The bot takes a snapshot of the licensing status when it is uploaded to Commons. Alternatively, I can switch to the alt image which doesn't have licensing problems (not to mention that it also shows the gold medal).

I agree that the ALT1 hook can be misinterpreted if one reads it in a hurry. I wanted to give it some context. It's not only an Olympic gold medal up for auction, that medal happens to be the first Winter Olympics gold medal from that country that is up for auction. Here's ALT2 using ALT image for consideration:

• ALT2: ... that Aleksei Grishin put his 2010 Winter Olympics gold medal (pictured), which is Belarus' first gold in Winter Olympics, up for auction to raise money for another person's surgery?

OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 02:06, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: In order of your comments: If you moved the FIS references to the end of each paragraph, that'd work especially if multiple sentences are from the same source. For the newspaper ad, I think if you swapped "seeking" with something else and/or rephrase it a tiny bit, I'd be fine with that. I'll keep an eye out tomorrow on any edits/adjustments and let you know if something got missed. If you prefer the stamp photo instead for the lead, that'd work for me as stamps pass PD Belarus I've learnt. As for AlT2, mentioning it was Belarus's first gold changes the focus from Grishin's gold to Belarus's first gold. Maybe consider rewriting this one. Otherwise, the main hook would sound fine. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:22, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: Overall update. I've been checking through your updates of the article and keeping track of what's left to be done (so far, all i see is one unsourced sentence). Let me know when you're finished with sourcing and I'll inform you if there's something missing or not. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:32, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: Hello. I've noticed that you have not edited the article in a few days. I was wondering if you would like to continue with this nomination. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 19:52, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes I am. Just need to take a little break away from focusing exclusively on one article. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 23:40, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: Okay. I'll leave what needs to be done here for whenever you decide to come back to this nomination:

• Verifilabity:
  • Missing citations, 1997 fisY, 1998 olympic qualifications, 2000 world cup, 2004 world cup, 2006 world cupY, 2011 did not enter, belarausian state univ.Y
  • inaccuracies: 2001 world cup, 2005 skiing (both need places reversed)
  • OR: 35 competitors 2004 world cupY, skipping Apex in 2006Y,

• Neutrality:
  • Words to watch: despiteY, strong
  • Non neutral: strong start 2005Y, strong performance 2010Y, mentioning the other competitors performances besides Grishin at 2010 OlympicsY

• Close paraphrasing: newspaper advertisement

--MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:54, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I sourced the ones you identified. For the inaccuracies, I believe you may be confused with the skiing season which spans 2 calendar years (2001-2002 world cup began in September 2001 and finished in January 2002, just before the Olympics in February). Likewise for 2005-2006 ski season, but World Cup races continued after the Olympics. The FIS source showed that he did not participate in 2011/2012 competitions. I have also sourced or reworded the parts that you believe to be original research and the 2010 Olympic part. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 03:46, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: Thanks for continuing to work on this. Here's an indepth explanation of the above that still needs work on:

Citations:

• For the 1998 Olympics, the la84foundation.org source doesn't mention the 217.84 points nor the 9th place finish he got to advance to the finals.Y
• FIS individual events for the 2000-01 world cup doesn't mention 15 races or lower than the top five aerials/overall finish
  • Half resolved. The top five part was removed, but the 15 races is unverified. An source is needed to say that the season had 15 races, as this sentence is only cited by two individual races, not the season.
    • This one was swapped to 7 races with a source.Y
• Need a source for the 2004-05 World Cup first four races and his top position of 11th place.Y
• Need a source that shows he did not compete in 2011 and 2012 World Cups and 2011 World Ski Championship. Yes he competed in 2013, but the citation is for the 2012-2013 World Cup and doesn't support the other parts.Y
  • Maybe clarify he didn't appear in the 2010-11 and 2011-12 world cup seasons? currently it reads he did not compete in the "2011 or 2012 World Cup races" and that he reappeared for the 2012-13 season.Y
• "beat the runner-up by 1.2 points" needs to be moved as the Sochi 2014 Olympics doesnt have the point difference.
  • Still no source that says he beat the runner up by 1.2 points at Sochi.
    • Misread. It was for Vancouver (thanks for pointing that out). Source was provided. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:19, 18 August 2019 (UTC) Y

Minor issues:

• For Mont Tremblant 2001, it should be fourth and second as he placed fourth on the 12th, then second on the 13th.Y
• "In 2003-2004 World Cup," - minor grammar errorY
• Changhun 2005 should be eighth and fifth as he was eighth on the 16th and fifth on the 18th.Y
• "Strong performance" - 2006 Olympics reword for neutrality (Just noticed it today).Y
• "good for 2nd place" - 2010 Olympics maybe reword for neutrality? (Just noticed it today).
  • This part was reworded to "achieving" . i think it's okay, but maybe switch to something like "resulting in"? achieveing sounds a tiny bit promotional but im so-so on it. If you disagree, i'll leave it.
• Newspaper advertisement - still close paraphrasing but that can be dealt with last.

--MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 17:39, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Those issues should all be resolved except the newspaper one. I'm still not comfortable changing words without distorting the meaning. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 03:39, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: You're almost there. A source is needed for the 15 races at the 2000-01 world cup and the 1.2 point difference between 1st and 2nd place at Sochi. I'll keep thinking over the newspaper part and i've left a comment for achieveing. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 17:57, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Took me a while to understand that the 1.2 point difference was referring to the Vancouver Olympics, not Sochi. I've changed from 15 races to 7 because the source calendar shows only 7 races for aerial. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 23:54, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: Whoops I read that wrong. Thanks for the source. As for the 7 races, that doesn't 100% confirm it I think as Mount Butler was two days (unless that's the 4x part?). Also spotted a minor grammar error "a eighth" instead of "an eighth". --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:18, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

@MrLinkinPark333: Yes, 2 races in the "4xAE" (2 races each for male and female). Also fixed "an eighth" OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 00:26, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: Okay then. All that's left is the "achieving" part and newspaper part. I tend to struggle with WP:LIMITED ones. I can ask for a second reviewer for the limited part only if you wish? --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:29, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

I reworded slightly but there's no easy way to get around it. WP:LIMITED says Close paraphrasing is also permitted... [in] the case with simple statements of fact. It also does not copy any creative words or phrases, similes or metaphors. I believe this falls within the acceptable case. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 03:19, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: Fair enough. Those words (mother, ad, newspaper, skiing etc.) are general terms that can't really be reworded even after changing the sentence structure. How about rewording the word "achieving"? I think once that word is replaced (for neutrality), then I can check it off. Also, could you swap the picture in the lead for ALT1? Just so to prevent other editors from promoting the wrong picture. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:51, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Would "winding up" be a better substitute for "achieving"? And not quite sure if you meant the image swap (stamp image replacing the competition image) the in lead for this DYK nom or in the article. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 22:10, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: Winding up doesn't sound right, perhaps stick with a simpler word. As for the image swap, the stamp is more suitable in the hook (though having the flickr image in question in the article as a whole, i don't know per previous discussion). --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 23:26, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

I swapped "seeking" -> "looking" and changed the hook image from File:Freestyle Skiing Men Aerials Final.jpg -> File:Alexei Grishin.jpg. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 01:32, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: Thanks for the talk page message. I'll accept the newspaper one for limited, stamp works for the lead, and achieving i'll leave it be as it sounds okay. Thanks for the amount of work you put in. I know you would have wanted this nom done quicker, but as there was a time limit to nominate and then the subsquenet fixes, it took longer than usual. Well done! --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 21:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)