Talk:Al-Shorta SC

Requested move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Al-Shorta Baghdad → Al-Shorta SC (Baghdad) – Al-Shorta is an arabic transliteration wich mean Police. However this, is a multi-use sports club known by it football team wich is a part of the Iraqi police of Baghdad and is called Al-Shorta Sport Club (in english : Police Sport Club). I put between brackets (Baghdad) to differe to a syrian club Al-Shorta SC (Damascus). (Here the official fan site in Facebook). Best regards. Fayçal.09 (talk) 08:07, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support per nom. SC is needed. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:39, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support per nom. – Michael (talk) 03:27, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support per nom. - attempted to move but redirect is in the way, created CSD#G6 to have an admin perform it. Tiggerjay (talk) 07:09, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 22:07, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Al-Shorta SC (Iraq) → Al-Shorta SC (Baghdad) – Kindly note we have in Iraq and in the Arab world many teams with the name Shorta, but this team is precisely based in Baghdad so it should be named Al-Shorta SC (Baghdad) Mussav (talk) 17:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. --BDD (talk) 19:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support - previous RM also concluded with this name. GiantSnowman 19:20, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - any update? Mussav (talk) 17:29, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Titles

@Alpha6a: The first discussion (here) had two outside respondents who both said that the 2003 and 2014 titles should not be listed for Shorta but it should be noted that they are disputed. I did not agree with this outcome but I respected it and implemented the correct changes based on the consensus reached.

After the new information came out about the 2014 season, the second discussion (started here, continued here) also had two outside respondents, one of them was the same person who originally said the title should not be listed, and both of them said the title should now be listed for Shorta. That means there is a change of consensus and I implemented these changes. The issue is solved and has been for months.

Just like I did with the first discussion, you have to respect the outcome because this is Wikipedia policy for how to resolve disputes. I don't agree with the 2003 title not being listed, you don't agree with the 2014 title being listed, but neither of us can change the discussions and we have to respect it. Throwing your toys out the pram and constantly reverting and edit warring in a disruptive way to get your way is most likely just going to end up in your account being blocked unfortunately.

If you think I have done a bad job with sourcing or content on the Al-Shorta SC page, please by all means help me to improve the article. I am not perfect and I welcome any help or constructive criticism for any edits. But do not revert the changes regarding the league titles for the reasons mentioned above. Thank you. Hashim-afc (talk) 19:25, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Nothing in the discussion suggests any agreement or consensus was made. You made the decision to make changes contrary to the fact. Alpha6a (Alpha6a) @Spike 'em:,@Koppapa:, @Crowsus:,@Steel Dogg:

here, here)

@Alpha6a: I'm going to spell out the timeline for you, so you can see that I am simply following Wikipedia policy:

- First discussion (July) - 2 outside respondents (i.e users not involved in the dispute) gave their view (SportingFlyer and Crowsus) - both had the same opinion that the 2003 and 2014 seasons should not be assigned to Shorta but that it should be noted that the 2 seasons are disputed among sources - I therefore made the relevant changes to reflect this

- After first discussion finishes, Iraqi FA vice president says to a major news agency that Shorta are the champions for 2014

- Second discussion (September) held in light of the new information - 2 outside respondents (i.e users not involved in the dispute) gave their view (SportingFlyer (same user from first discussion) and Nehme1499) - both had the same opinion that Shorta should be listed as champions for 2014 in light of the new information - I made the relevant changes to reflect this

If you are claiming the first discussion had a consensus and the second one didn't, then that makes no sense, since they had the same number/proportion of respondents, including one who has since changed his/her opinion from the first discussion.

I am going to revert your changes again, but if you decide to ignore me and revert back to how you want it to be, this is clear and disruptive edit warring and I will unfortunately have report you for it in order to stop this from repeating.

Like I said before, if you think there are other changes which need to be made to the Al-Shorta SC page in terms of content or sourcing then please let me know and I will be happy to work through it with you. But this subject about league titles is finished now and we need to respect the discussions and the Wikipedia policy regardless of whether you or I agree with all of the outcomes or not - otherwise no disputes on Wikipedia would ever get solved. Hashim-afc (talk) 22:49, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

@Spike 'em:,@Koppapa:, @Crowsus:,@Steel Dogg: Clearly you are using some sources and deciding to remove others for your own benefit and with little knowledge of the subject, you are able to dictate your own agenda,I ask @Spike 'em:,@Koppapa:, @Crowsus:,@Steel Dogg: to see that the Shorta wikipedia page looks more of a fan dedication site then actual wikipedia page i.e. claiming the Arab media stated Alshorta were champions of Asia in 1971, are examples of you using certain sources but omitting others says alot and also that in the 2014 instance the Iraqi Football Federation in statement explained Shorta and Erbil were not regarded as champions but designated 1st and 2nd placings for their regional tournaments meaning in the Asian Football Confederation. Sadly you choose to ignore this and I ask @Spike 'em:,@Koppapa:, @Crowsus:,{{ping|Steel Dogg} to investigate further as it does only seem that this argument is being made by your ownself and not by any other sites nor even the Iraq Footbll Federation and historians of football. It is clear that you as a fan of this club can not remain impartial and objective but rather do not seem to have any view but that these titles were either won or disputed which clearly from books on the subject (various books on football history in Iraq and the league) and statements from the Iraq Football Federation state the contraryto your claims, which are claims based on using different and confusing sources. I find that only you have come to this conclusion completely different view of others, and why is this so? @Spike 'em:,@Koppapa:, @Crowsus:,{{ping|Steel Dogg}

I haven't ignored or removed anything, I noted in the 2014 article the differing comments from the FA and the dispute and all the references are there. I just removed the earlier quotes since including so many quotes in the intro is far too long and unencyclopedic but I have kept all the sources there. On the Shorta page are sources from Arab newspapers from 1971 which shows that they were calling Shorta as champions of Asia and I believe this is an important thing to note with regards to the context of the club considering themselves as the champion. If you disagree with such edits like that and think I have made the page a "fan site" (?) then let's talk and improve the page together. All the users who you are tagging have already read and participated in the discussions with their opinion, there's no new information for them to read. It seems you are the one who is ignoring that the Iraqi FA vice president confirmed just a few months ago that Shorta was the 2014 champion and try to make it like I am the only one who has argued that which makes no sense. Hashim-afc (talk) 23:56, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

What evidence do we have for the 2003 title? All books on Iraqi League football state the league was abandoned, as in the book by Dr.Dhiya Almunshi the Iraqi Football Encyclopedia published in 2005 (Iraqi Football Encyclopedia) and also Dr.Ali Al-Sabty's book on the history of Iraq League football published two years ago and in both books it states that there was no winner of the Iraqi League in 2002-03 as it was abandoned, but ofcourse you dismiss these outright and pretend they do not exist, these books should be taken in consideration but you conveniently decide not to mention them. Let me look at other evidence on 2014 league title.

Evidence on 2014, the Iraq Football Federation released a statement you read here and this was mentioned in the discussion I read https://ibb.co/gPzJw2X This is the translated statement "The Iraq FA ends the Premier League and cancels relegation

The Iraqi Football Association announced in an official statement the end of the Premier League there without naming the champion/winner of the competition and relying on the current table positions  to determine the teams participating in foreign leagues with the abolition of relegation to the second division for this season.
In a statement, the Iraqi Football Association said that after taking note of all these circumstances in the domestic game, as well as a wide agenda of international participation awaiting Iraq’s national team, the Iraqi Football Association on Wednesday held an extraordinary meeting to examine the conditions of the league and decided to end the competition games for the season 2013-2014 and adopt the results are as per the last round of the competition, and according to the final standings in the league.

The statement issued by the Iraqi Football Association: “As the board of directors of the Union to reach the decision to terminate the league, he expresses its hope to understand the reasons that led to this decision, especially the difficulty of the movement of our teams during the recent period to conduct the games and forced the Iraqi FA to postpone a number of matches due to the difficulty of movement (within the country), in addition to the approaching of the holy month of Ramadan and the inability of many stadiums to conduct matches at night, and the transfer period between two seasons should be limited and allow professional players and coaches to consider staying or moving depending on the league transfer deadline.”

“Taking into account what may result from the termination of the league, the board of directors of the FA decided not to relegate any club from the Premier League, and decided that the clubs pay no more than 70% of the total amounts of contracts of players and coaches by their clubs, which the Iraq FA wishes to play its role In the application of this resolution.”

The Iraqi FA concluded its statement by saying that “it expresses its deep regret and the deep lack of completion of the season, it hopes our football family and all those concerned with the league and our sports media and our public, to understand all the justifications we have mentioned in the decision to end the league with a firm promise that the next season will be God willing, early and exemplary, and fulfills all our aspirations."

It should be noted here that the clubs (Al-Shorta, Arbil, Baghdad, Al-Jawiya), which occupies the top four on the ladder will be the closest to participate in foreign tournaments."

More evidence on the 2014 comes from Abdulkhaleq Masood the Iraq FF president who stated on national tv that there was no league champion named and the reason why he was on national tv was because of the earlier reports stating a winner had been named and the Iraq FF refuted this and there was a headline quoting the Iraq FF president stating "Al-Shorta is not champion." Here is the article and a link https://web.archive.org/web/20140620123331/http://www.alliraqnews.com/index.php/2011-11-25-02-02-21 - the article and headline is visible the whole article has been translated below from alliraqnews.com and can be read here https://forum.kooora.com/f.aspx?t=34423818

President of the Iraq Football Association: Police Club is not a Premier League champion Wednesday, 18 June 2014 17:57 - http://www.alliraqnews.com The head of the Iraqi Football Association Abdul-Khaliq Masoud said that the circumstances were known to be behind the decision of the FA to end the competition and the adoption of the current results but denied the Police Club were the champions of the league. Masoud said in a press statement that "the difficulty of moving teams and the existence of many competitions for the national teams were the most important reasons that called us to end the competition." "The FA did not decide the Police Club as a Premier League champion," he said, noting that "the FA will strongly seek to participate four teams in the upcoming Asian Championships, not two as it is now." The Iraqi Football Federation has ended the controversy over the Premier League game and decided officially on Wednesday to end the competition and the adoption of the results before the matches of the ninth round of the second phase of the competition, while some media reported the news of the Police Club had won the league championship league as it led the league by points.

And if you want to have confirmation, the president of Al-Shorta at the time Ayad Bunyan stated that they had not been named champion, if you are still arguing about this then clearly you do not believe any source or information I will put forward, because this is about your agenda to claim titles or claim they are disputed.

http://forum.kooora.com/f.aspx?t=34432842 Translation:

Statement from Ayad Bunyan "In a related context, the Chairman of the Administrative Committee of the Police Club considered that the issue of canceling the league was positive for all the teams of the league, but it was negative for his team, considering that the FA did not do justice to the champion of this edition, as they did enough to become champions. He added that this decision is incomplete, but we do not want to go into this matter much on the grounds that the league may develop a lot for the next season, as well as my team will play the AFC Champions League playoff for next season to represent Iraq in the half of the place granted by the Asian Football Confederation." Even he stated they were not champions

If the Iraq FA did announce Al-Shorta as 2014 league winners in 2019 there would have been an official statement and there is none. This is all speculation from yourself. The article I post is from 20 June 2014 and it states clearly from Al-Shorta president Ayad Bunyan that the club did not win the league.

Other evidence is a confirmation from the Iraq FF's General Relations media officer Waleed Tabra who stated as noted in the discussion "IFA did not announced any team as league champions officially because they cancelled the competition." This is quoted from him, an Iraq football federation employee.

So from the dicussion I have an Iraq FF statement stating there was no winner in 2014, an article from the Al-Shorta president stating the same, and an article from a news report quoting the Iraq FF that "Al-Shorta were not champion," and also a quote from an employee of the Iraq FF and media spokesman Waleed Tabra that there was no champion but for some reason all of this and you state otherwise, you have to see that the evidence I put forward is credible and rational but you have this agenda and so you will only dismiss it. I ask @Spike 'em:,@Koppapa:, @Crowsus:,@Steel Dogg:, @SportingFlyer:, @Nehme: to look at this the president of the Iraqi Football Federation, the president of the Al-Shorta Club, an employee of the Iraqi Football Federation and finally a statement from the Iraqi Football Federation (here https://ibb.co/gPzJw2X) is stating there was no winner but only Hashim-afc has reliable sources apparently, it makes a mockery of wiki as only Hashim-afc and no one else has come to this conclusion, the reason why some sources state Al-Shorta were champions was because of errors in earlier reports but the Iraqi FF president cleared up the confusion (see the article in http://www.alliraqnews.com on Wednesday, 18 June 2014 17:57 (hours after the press release and confusion from reports made in error, the headline of this article was "President of the Iraq Football Association: Police Club is not a Premier League champion." If none of you do not read arabic find someone who can so they can discuss this appropriately and with full understanding of the subject. I want someone indepedent to have a look at this and make a decision. Alpha6a (Alpha6a)

Every single point you have made was already made in the original discussions there's no point pasting it all again. Firstly the IFA statement you posted doesn't say anywhere there is no champion. Some IFA members told the media there was no champion, but another IFA member told the media that Shorta were the champions (ignored by you). Ayad Bunyan had said Shorta are not champions, but Shorta's official media department released a statement saying they were champions (ignored by you), the Shorta manager Lorival Santos said they are champions (ignored by you), the Shorta captain Hussein Abdulwahed said they are champions (ignored by you). Some websites listed no champion, majority of others listed Shorta as champions (ignored by you). Etc etc. Clearly there was major dispute about whether there was a champion or not and the situation was not clear which is why all these sources were saying different things. Then in July 2019 the Iraqi FA vice president confirmed it himself in a quote to Almaalomah agency a well-known and respected source to clear up the confusion, stating that Shorta are the champions of the season and hence that's what has been agreed that we should list on Wiki, it's not rocket science. And for 2003 I haven't pretended any books don't exist, the 2003 page says the title is disputed and does not list Shorta as the champions per the consensus, all those books are referenced in the 2003 article as evidence to show that several sources say there was no champion, meanwhile several other sources say Shorta were champions (ignored by you) and recently several major outlets said Shorta have won 6 titles (ignored by you). I've already said all this in the previous discussions and nothing new is being said here. An Arabic speaker will not change anything since everything has been translated and people have already read it and gave their opinion. There is no such person who can come and make a decision and overrule everybody, consensus is achieved through discussion among members which we have already had and their outcomes were clear and should be respected. Hashim-afc (talk) 01:06, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't want a response from you because regardless of anything I say, you will ignore it, I ask @Spike 'em:,@Koppapa:, @Crowsus:,@Steel Dogg:, @SportingFlyer:, @Nehme: to have a look at what I stated and the evidence I put forward (which has been ignored), there is no dispute over 2003 and 2014, it is only in your head. To add Hashim-afc states: "Then in July 2019 the Iraqi FA vice president confirmed it himself in a quote to Almaalomah agency a well-known and respected source to clear up the confusion, stating that Shorta are the champions of the season and hence that's what has been agreed that we should list on Wiki, it's not rocket science." (it is false statement, and the article comes from a statement the Iraq FF vice president made on film which he confirms the Iraq FF statment in 2014 declaring Al-Shorta and Erbil were 1st and 2nd place in the league for Asian competitions and thus were 'considered' champions, exactly what the Iraq FF statement in 2014 says, the designation of 1st and 2nd place was for Asian competitions. But Hashim-afc as usual is not looking at every piece of evidence but picking the ones he wants here and there, the Iraq FF statement, the statement from the Iraq FF president, the president of the Shorta Club, the Iraq FF employee and the articles published at the time stating there was no champion named cannot be disregarded, I ask @Spike 'em:,@Koppapa:, @Crowsus:,@Steel Dogg:, @SportingFlyer:, @Nehme: to please have a look at this and my earlier post. I do not see how from seeing all the evidence and sources that you can come to the conclusion that Al-Shorta were champions when their president, Iraq FF president and a Iraq FF statement at the time stated otherwise and to claim the media department of the Shorta Club is more important source to these three sources and statements? It does not make any sense Alpha6a (Alpha6a)

That's fine but all these editors have not only already looked at the evidence and given their opinions in the original discussions but are actually neutral and unlike you they did not ignore the fact that the Iraqi FA vice president literally confirmed 3 months ago that Shorta were indeed champions in 2014. You have randomly decided that a reputable outlet has created some false quote and have no evidence to support this, I could easily say the same thing about sites you've posted. The quote he said on film was also translated in previous discussion and he clearly said in this video that Shorta was the champion, he didn't mention anything about 1st and 2nd or Erbil or anything like that. I was mentioning Shorta media department in response to your point about Shorta president to show the confusion/dispute at the time. If the dispute was all in my head then why was the FA vice president being asked to clarify it 5 years later? Obviously the situation was unclear and different people/sources were saying different things even within the Iraqi FA (you ignored the Iraqi FA member at the time saying that Shorta were champions and just focus on the other quotes), and now it's been cleared up by him and that's why we had the second discussion and the consensus changed. You may not agree with the conclusion just like I don't agree with the conclusion about 2003, it doesn't matter, we sought outside opinions and got clear outcomes and that's what we go with. That's how you solve a dispute in Wikipedia. Hashim-afc (talk) 01:51, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Clearly you have proved to be impartial in the way you have assessed the sources, and I ask @Spike 'em:,@GiantSnowman:@Koppapa:, @Crowsus:,@Steel Dogg:, @SportingFlyer:, @Nehme: @ميناء:, @Hamza Alanbaky:, @Akram.altameemi:, @Hashima20:, and others to assess this because it is only you has come to this conclusion (mainly because of your biased view as a fan of Al-Shorta and using your own website as a source as well). The sources I put forward are stronger (from the Iraq FF) and cannot be ignored, and the explanation that news errors started after the release of the Iraq FF statement over the 2014 is the reason why there are incorrect reports claiming Al-Shorta as winners in 2014 and this is confirmed by the times of the reports, you have been using your own sources to manipulate to get to your conclusion, as you did with this Almaalomah agency report which comes from a short clip online which the Iraq FF vice president clearly states that Al-Shorta were considered as champions to allow them to play in Asian competitions but were not crowned (which is what the Iraq FF statement had stated in the first place). I put forward my evidence and ask people to take a look at it, and the strength of these sources, first hand unlike Hashim-afc's sources which quote players and even foreign websites. This response does not need a reply from Hashim-afc but from @Spike 'em:,@Koppapa:, @Crowsus:,@Steel Dogg:, @SportingFlyer:, @Nehme: @ميناء:, @Hamza Alanbaky:, @GiantSnowman:@Akram.altameemi:,@Hashima20: to have a look this evidence. Thank you Alpha6a (Alpha6a)

They already looked at and assessed everything in the original discussions. The Iraqi FA in 2014 made conflicting comments, they told Al-Kass that Shorta were champions and told another sites that there was no champion which led to confusion among sources as I demonstrated. And on 24 July 2019 the IFA vice president confirmed both on video and to Al-Maalomah agency that Shorta were champions to clear up the confusion. I haven't manipulated anything, all the quotes are there word for word. If you want to ignore it or pretend it is fake with no evidence so you can have a different conclusion then I think we know who is the impartial one. And this reply does not need a response from anyone since the dispute has already been resolved in the correct way. Hashim-afc (talk) 13:46, 16 November 2019 (UTC)