Talk:Darul Uloom Hathazari

Attention Please

British representative group visit Al-Jamiatul Ahlia Darul Ulum Moinul Islam.The group praises for the standard of education, peaceful environment and activities of the Jamiah. See below:

• http://www.darululum-hathazari.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18:news2&catid=4:2009-11-23-13-11-49&Itemid=10 --User talk: Bakrbinaziz —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.56.7.139 (talk) 09:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Could you please provide the name of the British group, and preferably an independent source? Any organization can post on its own website saying good things about itself... for example, BP's website says that "BP strives to minimize the environmental impact of its activities by applying management systems and standards and using innovative technology in its operations"... even though it caused the largest marine oil spill in the history of the petroleum industry. While I'm sure the Boro Madrasah is honest, independent sources are needed for such a statement. —CodeHydro 16:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

To Codehydro The group consists of 13 members from British Royal College of Defence and led by Major General Sir S J L Roberts. I am searching for reliable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.30.35.133 (talk) 17:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks, I am looking into the Royal College of Defense right now. Keep looking for sources and try to provide me with as many details as possible... such as the actual name of the person speaking about the madrasah if possible. Information about what the Royal College was doing at the school may also help me look for a source. If you can find a source directly from the Royal College website that praises the madrasah, then nobody can argue against including such a statement. —CodeHydro 01:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• I have looked into it and have a source confirming that a 13-member party of the RDCS led by Maj Gen Sebastian Roberts arrived in Dhaka on Sunday August 23. This is very very recent, so it may be hard to find sources about what you said. It may be better to wait a while for more sources to appear before looking too hard. The RDCS is unlikely to report their findings until at least a week after they leave Bangladesh next week, possibly much later. —CodeHydro 01:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The Full History Should be Added

I have submitted many times, but none care for this.

History

The second largest Qawmi Islamic University of the Indian Subcontinent Al-Jamiatul Ahlia Darul Ulum Moinul Islam introduces the Islamic Education and Reformation movement in this region. The story of this movement is very long. During the then British rule the education system, culture and social condition of this region were not favorable with the belief and aqeedah of the Muslim. To preserve the religious education and culture of the Muslim, to remove the Shirk- Bid’ah grown in their social life and to recover the Muslim nation from the aggression of foreign culture, the centre of traditional Islamic education Darul Uloom Deoband was established in Indian Subcontinent, 1866CE. For the same purpose, a few famous Ulema of the port-city Chittagong take a decision to establish Al-Jamiatul Ahlia Darul Ulum Moinul Islam according to the constitution of world famous Islamic religious education centre Darul Uloom Deoband to save the Muslim of East Bengal from the bondage of foreign tradition and Shirk-Bida’h. To apply this decision, by the order of Hakeemul Ummat Hazrat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi (Rah) his favorite disciple and student Shaikul Islam Hazrat Maulana Habibullah (Rah) along with Hazrat Maulana abdul Wahed (Rah), Hazrat Maulana Sufi Azizur Rahman (Rah) and Hazrat Maulana Abdul Hamid (Rah) establish the Madrasah in 1315 Hijri (1901CE) completely at current location. By the grace Ahhhah(swt), Al-Jamiatul Ahlia Darul Ulum Moinul Islam has today reached at its 109 years of establishment by Shaikul Islam Hazrat Maulana Habibullah (Rah) in 1901CE. The Jamiah has still kept its struggle continuing for the sake of Muslin Ummah. Centering Al-Jamiatul Ahlia Darul Ulum Moinul Islam thousands of Madrasahs, Mosques, Maktabs and Prayer Houses are established. The spread of Ilm-e-Wahi (Knowledge of Qur’an and Hadith) has occurred very much. Visibly, thousands of Ulema being produced from this institution are working hard for the spreading of Islam in both home and abroad. --User talk:Bakrbinaziz

• Thanks Bakrk! And don't worry, I care, and I know other people care about the information too. Let me assure you, almost everybody who removed your material has nothing personal against the school. We just need material to be sourced, preferably from an English source because we care about truth, like you do. I think it is possible to verify the history material and I promise you that I will look into it myself in 3-6 days when I am less busy and that I will try to get what you have above on the article page in an acceptable form. Just help me out by posting links to English sources if you don't mind. And please do not keep reposting material until that time unless you know how to properly cite the material. Your time would be better spent on finding sources. —CodeHydro 01:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
• Thanks Codehydro, for your feeling and understanding. The history is actually from the offficial website of the Jamiah. I have translated it into English. Problem is that the website is written only in Bangla. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.30.35.139 (talk) 13:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• You know what, I think I'll take your translation in good faith. However, I will have to rewrite it from a neutral perspective since Wikipedia is not supposed to be an advertisement for a school. This may take a little while. —CodeHydro 19:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The Jamia's own website is not a particularly good choice for information about its history. So, we need third party sources. --Ragib (talk) 19:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

It's not ideal, but it'll do for now. I believe that just by having a basic history out there, it opens the door for other editors to find better sources (and I'll make a citation needed note in every paragraph). Plus, when dealing with things like an institution's history or a person's biography, most sources basically parrot or repeat whatever they learn from an interview with representatives of the institution (ask any journalist), so the distinction from primary and secondary sources is often nominal in such cases. Anyhow, I'm confident I can write it in a neutral manner and that I can filter any claims which are dubious before posting. —CodeHydro 20:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay, done. There was a lot of information which I could not use because it not exactly historical. For example, much of it was simply praise and honorifics for the Deobandi and their scholars, and disparaging towards the Shirk. As per WP:SOURCE, the school's website can be considered a reliable source when talking about itself, but should not be used when they are describing another party, such as the Shirk. Nonetheless, I felt that disparaging British cultural imperialism was fair game because it's done everywhere ;) —CodeHydro 00:04, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I noticed that somebody tried to copy and past this into the history section again. Whomever did it, could you please clarify exactly what you think that's missing? The history section you see now is a bit shorter than what you have above because a lot of the information was already introduced in the opening section before the history (such as the aprts about it being among the largest and oldest schools), so there's no need to re-introduce it. Nonetheless, I added a short bit about how "Over time, the Hathazari Madrasah became 'arguably the most reputable Quomi madrasa in the country'" to the history. Please let me know exactly what else you think needs to be added if there's more that I did not see. —CodeHydro 13:41, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

• Hi, I notice that you're continuing to paste the above material directly into the page. Please stop that. Due to copyright laws, there are legal issues involved when using directly translated material from any source. Moreover, much of that material has unclear encyclopedic value and seems largely like an advertisement. If there are any specific parts you want added, please post them below this comment. (post just a few sentences at a time so we can discuss them easier). I want to include as much as possible, but you must understand that there are rules to be followed. —CodeHydro 13:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Note to future editors

Most English sources for this school seem to refer to it by some variant of "Hathazari Madrassah". According to the article on madrasah, that word is variously transliterated as madarasaa, medresa, madrassa, madraza, madarsa, medrese etc. This Google search should cover all the bases if anybody wants sources ;) Happy editing —CodeHydro 18:37, 12 August 2010 (UTC) Hmm, apparently, it's also called Darul Ulum Muinul Islam Hathazari Chittagong... —CodeHydro 20:22, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Note to vulnerable wiki community

It is more logical to delete this article to me as the creator. I have created another article in stead of this because there is some mistake within this article. (Bakrbinaziz)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.56.7.141 (talk) 12:17, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Please try fixing this article instead of deleting it and making a new one. Do not removed sources material, though areas marked was "citation needed" are fair game to remove. Feel free to add new sourced material. Thank you —CodeHydro 13:19, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Bakrbinaziz and his ips are trying to delete this page simply because his spam and advertisement text have been removed from the article, and some unfavorable news (properly cited) have been introduced to maintain npov. Bakr is utterly reluctant to follow any instructions or heed to any requests on how to collaborate with others and adhere to wikipedia policies. --Ragib (talk) 18:25, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Move to Al-Jamiatul Ahlia Darul Ulum Moinul Islam Hathazari

I endorse Bakrbinaziz's moving of this page to Al-Jamiatul Ahlia Darul Ulum Moinul Islam Hathazari (which was undone). I have found sources that called the school Darul Ulum Moinul Islam Hathazari, so I think it's a good disambiguation of the title. Nonetheless, it's a pain in the rear that the vast majority of sources are in Bengali and the rest disagree about how to translate it into English.... —CodeHydro 18:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Even if you saw sources, they probably mentioned this: "Al-Jamiatul Ahlia Darul Ulum Moinul Islam, Hathazari". It is same as mentioning "Princeton University, New Jersey". The place name is not part of the proper name of this institution. --Ragib (talk) 18:26, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

As an example, take a look at this copyvio image File:Moinul_Islam1.JPG. If you look at the bottom, the institutions name is given as follows:

আল জামিয়াতুল আহ্‌লিয়া দারুল উলুম মুঈনুল ইসলাম (Al-Jamiatul Ahlia Darul Ulum Moinul Islam)

and only below this, the address is given,

হাটহাজারী, চট্টগ্রাম-৪৩৩০, বাংলাদেশ (Hathazari, Chittagong-4330, Bangladesh)

So, from its own publications, it is clear that the institution does not use the place name in its name. The only reason Bakrbinaziz has been trying to move it to a separate name is that he wants to include his preferred spammy content there, or get the page deleted. --Ragib (talk) 18:34, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Hifajate Islam is a peaceful organization. Though some people says that it is a militant group actually it is their vocal philosophy. They have no reliable evidence. But see:

• http://www.amardeshonline.com/pages/details/2010/02/25/20100
• http://www.dailynayadiganta.com/2010/02/25/fullnews.asp?News_ID=197426&sec=1

So, the claim of alleged militancy should be removed from this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.56.7.142 (talk) 18:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

You are simply quoting two reports from two right-wing and islamist newspapers. The majority of the other newspapers tells a different story :) --Ragib (talk) 19:35, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, you mean only left-wing and non-Islamist newspapers are all right. None should show respect and should consider the opinions of Islamist newspaper.And if so, what does the word Democracy mean? What is other's opinion toleration? Truth is Light.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.30.35.134 (talk) 18:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

This is not about disrespect for islamist sources. As noted in your talk page, "alleged" means "to assert without proof". This wording in this article already makes it clear that it's not for sure. Nonetheless, feel free to cite the sources that argue against the fact, but DO NOT remove the other material that is sourced already. —CodeHydro 21:50, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Amardesh source

To summarize the Amardesh story, it states the police action on the procession by Hefajate-Islami. It also includes statements made by Maulana Ahmed who claims his organization (HI) to be a peaceful one, and that they are protesting the goverment's decisions to introduce secular education system (which they perceive to be hostile against the right-wing islamists). Note that the newspaper mentions this as the statement of Maulana Ahmed and his colleagues. The police's statement is also included, which mentions that militants from the Hefajate-Islam procession also fired gunshots and threw homemade bombs on the police, causing injuries to 5/6 police constables. The Naya Diganta article is unreadable due to their non standard font.

Either way, it should be kept in mind that these two newspapers are small-circulation right wing publication (the Naya Diganta paper represents mainly the Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh ideology. Both have limited circulations, at least 10 to 100 times less than the popular ones such as Prothom Alo and the Daily Star. --Ragib (talk) 04:16, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the summary, I will add that information to the article. Looking at it from my detached non-Bengali background, my guess is that Maulana Ahmed honestly believes that his organization is peaceful, but may not have full control of its activities. Having been a community leader myself, I've had to deal with some rogue members of my community disobeying my orders for peace and attacking people out of their own volition. —CodeHydro 15:44, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Prothom Alo and the Daily Star mainly represent atheist ideology. They always publish false news about Qaumi Islamic Universities of Bangladesh. But when the Ulema and Students demand justice, demand thier publication to be prevented they seek forgiveness. Prothom Alo also once hurt into the mind of the entire Muslim community by insulting Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAWS). Then the whole Muslim world demanded justice and the people who have a blind faith in Prothom Alo take position against Prothom Alo. Afterwards Prothom Alo Seeks forgiveness and finally forgiven. But Prothom Alo has no shame at all. It repeats mistake.Therefore false allegation must be removed from Hathazari Madrasah article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.56.7.137 (talk) 11:12, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Good luck with that :). You also mean that any newspaper that mentions the militant link of the madrassah is "atheist"? Including the Daily Independent, the Daily Azadi, BBC, and a host of others? (to put it other way, any news paper other than Nayadiganta, Sangram, Amar Desh etc. ? --Ragib (talk) 12:49, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Ragib, also you mean that any newspaper that publish true news mainly represent the Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh ideology.But you dont know that there is difference between Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh ideology and Deobandi ideology.

• Just making a note that I have updated the paragraph on Hifazat-e-Islam based on Ragib's above translation of the Amardesh source. Hopefully this will provide enough PoV balance of the two conflicting views to have some sense of neutrality. —CodeHydro 16:23, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

CodeHydro, my translation was for the talk page. I don't think such translations need to be provided in the article text or in the references itself. Providing the link to the news item is enough. I would recommend removing my translation from the article body. --Ragib (talk) 01:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The translation is only visible in the footnote. I think it's useful for non-Bengali people (like me) to understand what is actually in the source, which justifies including the translation in the footnote as per WP:NONENG, especially since it's a controversial topic. The only thing is that you may want to add relevant Bengali text to the footnote. Either way, it's your translation so if you really want to remove it then go ahead regardless of how helpful I think it is. —CodeHydro 02:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Qaumi, Quomi, and Kawmi

My best guess from reading the sources is that these two words are the same thing. So I've added Qaumi in parenthesis after Kawmi. And just now I found Quomi, which may also be another variant... *sigh* It's tough editing articles about non-English things... Google fails at things like this. —CodeHydro 21:09, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I suggest that somebody who speaks Bangali make a stub page that explains what the above means since it being used in so many schools, and include all the above variations... including Quamee that I just found... also note that, Ragib you may have set the protection level higher than you thought you did, as my edits aren't auto-accepted and I'm autoconfirmed —CodeHydro 14:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand why you say this ... this edit went through since the protection level is "registered users". --Ragib (talk) 02:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind, apparently it doesn't auto-accept for me only when I've made an edit on top of an edit that has not yet been accepted. Otherwise, my edits are auto-accepted if no non-accepted edits were made before mine. By the way, can you please explain to me what is this word that I cite above? It's been bothering me not knowing. —CodeHydro 02:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The Bengali word is কওমী, which is variously written as Quomi, Qaumi, etc. There are two Madrassah systems in Bangladesh. The Government approved system follows the Aligarh model, and the madrassahs are called Aliya Madrassah. These are operated under the Government Madrassah Education Board [1]. The degrees from these madrassahs are recognized by the government, and the Aliya madrassahs are either operated by or regulated by the govt. In contrast, the Quomi madrassah system follows the Deoband model, and their curriculum are not regulated by the government. The degrees of such madrassahs are not recognized by the govenrment for higher ed or jobs. This system is organized under the subject (Darul Ulum Moinul Islam) and other big Qaumi madrassahs. --Ragib (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, that is really interesting, thanks! Based on your information, I created a stub for Quomi. Feel free to take a look. —CodeHydro 03:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

A small correction, the word is probably of Farsi or Arabic origin. Qauom probably means nation. --Ragib (talk) 03:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

You are confused with the word Qawmi. It is derived from the arabic word Qawmoon(قوم).But, Ragib, you have correctly guessed its meaning to be Nation. --User:Bakrbinaziz —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.56.7.133 (talk) 12:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

You are both very close, but you may want to consider looking at the history section of the Qawmi article for the explanation of the word's origin from Dr. Masooda Bano of the University of Oxford, one of the world's leading universities, that is probably more WP:reliable ;) —CodeHydro 16:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Date of Establishment

Supposedly the website of the school says that it was established in 1901 (though I can't confirm as I don't speak Bengali). However, the NBR ref says that the school was established in 1896 and then moved to its current location in 1901. Do Bangladeshi people have a different idea of establishment date than is in the United States? In my country, most people would use the original date even if the organization has since moved... or could it be that somebody translated established incorrectly? Moreover, it seems the website may be poorly maintained... the website may simply be wrong. —CodeHydro 14:11, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

about admition

my yonger brother he want to admition in that university madrasha in tafcheer a quran.can I have contuct number.this year he want to sturdy. Mahabub906 (talk) 14:11, 27 July 2016 (UTC)