Talk:Abu Said Faraj

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 21:30, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Abu Said Faraj started a rebellion to to enthrone his son Ismail I, but Ismail imprisoned his father before he eventually became Sultan? Source: "After this incident he [Abu Said Faraj] was imprisoned in a fortress, and his son then ordered him to be held in the castle of Cártama. When Ismail ascended the throne in 1314 he had his father transferred to the fortress of Salobreña, the royal family prison of the Nasrids, where he died in 720/1320" [https://www.jstor.org/stable/25183293 Fernández-Puertas p. 5)
  • ALT1:... that Abu Said Faraj instigated Ceuta to declare independence from the Marinid Sultanate in 1304, only to conquer the city for Granada two years later? Source: Harvey p. 169 and Rubiera Mata 1969 p. 112

• Reviewed: Soedjono Hoemardani

5x expanded by HaEr48 (talk). Self-nominated at 13:54, 30 April 2020 (UTC).

•  Reviewing... Flibirigit (talk) 00:53, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited: - ?
• Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: The article is in good condition overall, and I have only a couple minor questions. Article expanded fivefold from April 25 to 30, and nominated same day. Length and sourcing are adequate. No issures found with neutrality or plagiarism. ALT0 appears to be supported by sentences in two separate paragraphs. The first sentence of the second paragraph in the "Rebellion" section would need a citation directly at the end according to DYK citation rules. ALT1 is properly cited and accepted sources by AGF. All images in the article are properly licensed. QPQ requirement is met. In the "Governor of Malaga" section, what is meant by "mountain-girt city"? Flibirigit (talk) 01:33, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Flibirigit: Thank you for the review. I've made the citation more specific for the sentence you mentioned. "Mountain-girt city" simply means a city that is girt (encircled) by mountains. It's a direct quote by Harvey that illustrate his analysis of Malaga's importance, so I hesitate to paraphrase. Is that okay? HaEr48 (talk) 12:30, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the changes. I added the wiktionary definition directly into the article for clarity. ALT0 and ALT1 are now both properly cited and mentioned inline. Nomination meets all other DYK criteria. Flibirigit (talk) 20:27, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Abu Said Faraj/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Karaeng Matoaya (talk · contribs) 06:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I'll take this as my first real GA review, if you're okay with that. :) --Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 06:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

@Karaeng Matoaya: Of course, looking forward to your review. Glad to see you active in Wikipedia again, I like your work on the Early history of Gowa and Talloq :) HaEr48 (talk) 13:42, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Quick fail criteria

• Not a long way from meeting any one of the six good article criteria: Y
• No copyright violations: None per copyvios.toolforge.org Y
• No cleanup banners: Y
• Stable: Y
• No previous GA review: Y

Criteria

1. Well written:  On hold

(a) "the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct"

I've been bold and done a bit of copyediting myself for typos and such, hopefully you don't mind. A few things I'd prefer to go over with you:

• "...was a member of the Nasrid dynasty of Granada, who served as the governor of Málaga from 1279, and a close advisor to Sultan Muhammad II (r. 1273–1302) and Muhammad III"

Since Abu Said was a close advisor to Muhammad II before becoming governor of Málaga, and to cut down on the number of commas, could we reorder this to "...was a member of the Nasrid dynasty of Granada, who was a close advisor to Sultan Muhammad II (r. 1273–1302) and Muhammad III (r. 1302–1309) and served as the governor of Málaga from 1279"? I would also prefer it if the first sentence mentioned the year he was deposed, because the sentence as it stands might imply that he was governor until death.

• Good point, done. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "he became friends with his cousin, the future Muhammad II. When Muhammad II became Sultan, Abu Said became his advisor on economic and military policies. He married Muhammad II's daughter... in 1279 he was appointed as Muhammad II's governor in Málaga..."

The number of "Muhammad II"s here might be a bit repetitive—what do you think about changing "Muhammad II became Sultan" to "the latter became Sultan", and changing "appointed as Muhammad II's governor" to something like "appointed as the royal governor of Málaga"?

• Done. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "As governor he also led"

I would prefer a comma after "governor."

• Done. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "including against rebels and against the Marinid Sultanate."

The fact that the Marinids were based in Morocco should be mentioned, in both this lead sentence and the first time they appear in the "Governor of Málaga" section.

• Done. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "His relation with the next Sultan, Nasr (r. 1309–1314), was poor"

I think this would be clearer with "relations were poor".

• Done. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "he started a rebellion to replace Nasr by his son Ismail"

The use of "Nasr" in both the main and subordinate clauses could be seen as repetitive. Would you have any issues with an alternative phrasing like "he started a rebellion to crown his own son, Ismail, instead"?

• Done. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "...brother of the founder of the Nasrid dynasty of Granada Muhammad I"

What do you think about "...who was a brother of Muhammad I, founder of the Nasrid dynasty of Granada" here?

• Done. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "Abu Said was credited with the Sultan's decision to expand and consolidate the crown lands and replacing pastures with crops"

Was Abu said credited with replacing pasturelands with croplands personally, or was he credited with the sultan's decision to do so? If the former, the meaning would be clearer if "the crown lands, and with replacing..." were used. If the latter, "the crown lands and to replace" would be preferable.

• The latter, clarified. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

In addition, pastures are land, while crops are the produce of the land. Does this mean something like "replace pastures with cultivated land"?

• You're right, done. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "Fatima (born 659 AH) would have been a child then, additionally the text"

This is a run-on sentence; the comma should be a semicolon or a period, or there should be a conjunction. Additionally also needs a comma after.

* Reworded. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "Reoccupied after having been a centre of a rebellion lasting more than a decade"

What do you think about "As it had been reoccupied after a rebellion lasting more than a decade", which clarifies the relationship with the main clause?

• Done . HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "In 1295–1296, he unsuccessfully led the suppression of the rebellion in Ronda."

"Suppression" implies success; I'd prefer "he led an unsuccessful campaign to suppress a rebellion in Ronda." Also, the article here should be "a" since no rebellion in Ronda was previously mentioned.

• Done . HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "...led by Abu Said arrived, welcomed by local supporters and took over the city"

This should either be "...led by Abu Said arrived, was welcomed by local supporters and took over the city" or "...led by Abu Said arrived, welcomed by local supporters, and took over the city," depending on whether "welcomed by local supporters" is an adverbial phrase or not.

• Done . HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "Muhammad III was deposed by Nasr in a palace coup. Nasr was a son of Muhammad II by another wife, and therefore a half-brother of Muhammad II and Fatima."

For clarity's sake (it might be better to introduce who Nasr is before what he did), couldn't be this combined as "Muhammad III was deposed by his half-brother Nasr in a palace coup"? Also, I think there's a typo here ("half-brother of Muhammad III")

• Combined those facts as you suggested, and reworded a bit to avoid implying that Nasr was responsible for the coup (which appears not to be the case according to the sources) . HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "...a half-brother of Muhammad II and Fatima. The triple alliance..."

The text would flow better if the second sentence had a transitional phrase, like "At the same time, the triple alliance..."

• Done . HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "The Sultan's vizier Muhammad ibn al-Hajj grew up in Christian lands as well as spoke and dressed in the Castilian manner..."

"As well as" shouldn't have a gerund here, but I think the entire sentence might work better if it was worded like "The sultan's vizier, Muhammad ibn al-Hajj, had also grown up in Christian lands and spoke and dressed in the Castilian manner..."

• Reworded, almost like you suggested, but without "also" to avoid implying that Nasr grew up in Christian lands . HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• "The Sultan himself fell from his horse and lost it, and had to run back to Granada on foot."

• Reworded . HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I think this sentence could be clearer; at first I thought "lost it" was being used in its idiomatic sense here, instead of referring to the horse.

• "The presumptive remains of the Nasrid sultans were disturbed in 1988 during the construction of what is now the Autovía A-44."

This isn't connected to the GA review, but I found this final sentence very poignant.

• Unfortunately it is cited to a blog (someone added the statement recently). I couldn't find an academic source mentioning it, and it seemed not necessarily relevant to Abu Said specifically (there were other remains too), so I just shortened it to what I can find in my sources. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

(b) "it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation"

Mostly good. The only—fairly pedantic—issue I could find was that the lead mentions "various castles," but the "Rebellion" section doesn't mention that Antequera, Marbella and Vélez were castles.

Mentioned now. 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

2. Verifiable with no original research:  On hold

(a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline

Good.

Is there a reason Drayson isn't in the bibliography, though?

It (and the other two sources in that sentence) was recently added by another user. Some of the info was cited to a blog. I updated it now, let me know what you think. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

(b) all inline citations are from reliable sources

All sources in the bibliography are clearly reliable, but I have some misgivings about the two web sources used for references (26) and (27). They both appear to be tour guide websites/blogs, and while they don't seem to be particularly unreliable, would it be possible to find a more academic source for the statement? I wouldn't hold this against the review, though.

From Google Books I can see that Drayson already supports the first two sentences, so it would be a question of locating a source for "the presumptive remains of the Nasrid sultans were disturbed in 1988 during the construction of what is now the Autovía A-44".

Same answer as above. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

(c) it contains no original research

I've checked Fernández-Puertas 1997 and O'Callaghan 2011. Just two issues:

• I can't find information that the Nasrids regained Málaga in 1279 ("in that year") in p.2 of Fernández-Puertas 1997, the cited source. Is this from a different source?
• "with help from his mother Fatima and Uthman ibn al-Ula, the commander of the Volunteers of the Faith garrisoned in Málaga": I also can't find this in p.5 of Fernández-Puertas 1997.

All other instances of Fernández-Puertas and O'Callaghan have been accurately cited, so these are the only issues there are.

You're right. Added citation for both.

(d) it contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism.

Good.

3. Broad in its coverage: Y

All good. Just one question, Fernández-Puertas had this section:

"Back in Malaga Abu Sa'id Faraj learnt of the abortive attempt to restore the dethroned and blind Muhammad III, who later apparently drowned in the pool of the Casa Real he was inhabiting in the Alhambra. It was then that Abu Sa'id Faraj—who had already been repelled by what he had seen and heard at court concerning Sultan Nasr, his first cousin once removed—now, on learning that Nasr had assassinated his own brother, rebelled against the sultan."

Is there a particular reason this part was omitted in the article?

Yes, I hesitated because the more commonly accepted date of Muhammad III's drowning comes later, so I'd somehow have to add some explanation, which is a bit distracting from the biography itself. I guess I should still mention it as it is mentioned in an RS, so I added it now. HaEr48 (talk) 20:16, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

4. Neutral: Y

5. Stable: Y

6. Illustrated: Y

Well-illustrated and no licensing/caption issues. I do wonder if there could be a family tree of the early Nasrids in a separate category, though, the way there are for some royalty articles. I didn't personally have any problem following the family relationships, but I imagine some readers might.

Added a partial family tree (it has to be abridged because it would last many more generations, see File:NasridDynasty.png). HaEr48 (talk) 20:16, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

7. Additional stuff (not necessary to pass GA)

Could we have the Arabic name in the lead and in the template, along with ideally an ALA-LC transliteration? (Presumably "أبو سعيد فرج بن إسماعيل" based on the romanization presented in Fernández-Puertas.)

Added in the lead and template. The transliteration would differ just by a few diacritics and apostrophes from the spelling already given. I'd rather not include it to avoid repetition and my guess is that nearly everyone who care about those diacritics can read the Arabic that is provided. HaEr48 (talk) 20:16, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Conclusion

 On hold for now, but once the issues above are addressed—which shouldn't take long—this should be a pass.

In any case, this was a fascinating read, and thank you so much for contributing so much about the Nasrids of Granada! I always had a thing for them, and the Alhambra was wonderful when I visited a few years ago.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 16:21, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

@Karaeng Matoaya: Thank you for taking your time reading the article and for your very helpful suggestions. I think I've addressed all your feedback, please take a look, and let me know if you have more! HaEr48 (talk) 20:19, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

@HaEr48: All issues have been addressed, so this is a pass. Y Good job!

Also, I take your point about the transliteration being repetitive, but I did add it in the "Full name" section of the person infobox since it's going to be repetitive there anyways, and I do think it's useful to have a close romanization somewhere for all historical Arab figures (especially since those are what many academic sources use).--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 00:37, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

@Karaeng Matoaya: Good point about the infobox, thank you! HaEr48 (talk) 01:48, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Vidal Castro

@AmericanLemming: How did you find year and page number for the Vidal Castro source? HaEr48 (talk) 02:36, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I got confused because I didn't realize there were two different Vidal Castro sources. Looking back at recent edits to the article, it looks like you added the page number with this edit. I think what happened is you added a footnote but forgot to add the source ("El asesinato político en al-Andalus") to this article. (I found it by glancing at your recently promoted article Ismail I of Granada.) The source below is a book chapter by Vidal Castro and has both page numbers and a year of publication, whereas the Vidal Castro online encyclopedia entry has neither. Anyway, I reverted the article back to the way it was before my recent edits and added the Vidal Castro book chapter source, which should fix the Harvard error. I hope that clears things up. AmericanLemming (talk) 05:18, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

• Vidal Castro, Francisco (2004). "El asesinato político en al-Andalus: la muerte violenta del emir en la dinastía nazarí". In María Isabel Fierro (ed.). De muerte violenta: política, religión y violencia en Al-Andalus (in Spanish). Editorial CSIC - CSIC Press. pp. 349–398. ISBN 978-84-00-08268-0. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help).

• @AmericanLemming: You're right, thank you for clearing it up and adding the 2004 source. HaEr48 (talk) 19:22, 24 June 2020 (UTC)