Talk:Abbotsford, British Columbia/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

I don't understand the difference between a "single-family home" and a "single detached home". How is it that a single-family home is on average selling at $309 000 while a single detached home is selling at $255 000? BF 08/12/04 12:46est

Single family home includes stuff like condo's which in BC can be much higher in price than single detached homes which are houses seperate from any other dwelling. -DJSasso (talk) 13:37, 15 December 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism

I'm still pretty new to Wikipedia. Can we get this page locked so that only logged in users can edit it? And/or lock it so only trusted editors can edit it? The vandalism is getting out of hand. --Brilang 20:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Notable residents

Randy Bachman owns or owned a house there. I'm not certain if he still resides in Abbotsford though. I do know for certain that Tim Bachman lives there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ufossuck (talk • contribs) 01:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Tom Selleck used to own a place on 56th/Harris Road, too, but I'm not sure "people from Abbotsford" fits (he sold it; it's that big place on the south side with the "turret" and stonework, with a landcaped creek on its right.....at least I think it's on the Abby side of teh border.....he doesnt' own it anymore anyway.Skookum1 (talk) 14:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

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map is wrong

The map is the location-map for hte FVRD, not the City of Abbotsford. Do we have a Lower Mainland boundaries map? Seems to me the GVRD/Metro Vancouver area one maybe doesn't come far enough east.Skookum1 (talk) 14:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

It's still there and it's annoying, so I took it out; it's also mis-named Image:Abbotsford, British Columbia Location.png, which it's not, it's a map of the FVRD. Mission and Deroche are not part of Abbotsford....Skookum1 (talk) 02:37, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

changed greater vancouver to metro vancouver. there is no such thing as "greater" vancouver....lulz —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.66.73.65 (talk) 09:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, actually yes there is, although it's recently been officially renamed to Metro Vancouver; although "Greater Vancouver' and "Greater Vancouver Regional District" are somewhat different things, historically; I don't know what era you were born in, or what bumpf you've chosen to believe, but you're just wrong, OK?Skookum1 (talk) 02:37, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Demographics and diversity

Although I haven't looked at the provided cite, just removed by Emarsee, my impression of the "third most diverse city in Canada" is not based on proportion so much as range; and I think the claim is maybe made by Abbotsford itself, or one of its community organizations. Richmond may hav more visible minorities, propoertionately, but I submit that on a little poking around you'll find ethnicities in Abbotsford, in larger numbers/proportions, than you'd find in Richmond or Surrey; that is what diversity is, though how to measure it is another matter, much less cite it as a statement. Also Abbotsford has a high rate of invisible minorities, i.e. the range of so-called white groups is quite wide; Richmond "in the old days" was noticeably more "Anglo-Saxon" (a term which curiously enough is used to include Scots and Irish) than other Valley municipalities; Abbotsford/Matsqui/Sumas was noticeably Dutch and German with a strong smattering of Scandinavians and Ukrainians, Poles etc; Mission much the same, but also with Hungarians, Finns, Italians etc. "Most diverse" is not limited to visible minorities, or to pure number/percentage; it's a question of "the rainbow". Again, it's not for us to make the judgment call and come up with the terms that define diversity; the point is that somewhere out there this calim is made, mabye even by StatsCan itself; that is the needed ciation. I'ts not that the market has more papaya in it, or the biggest papaya, it's that it's also got a selection of kumquats and different kinds of rutabaga....Skookum1 (talk) 20:35, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

the source said "highest proportion of visible minorities" not "most diverse" or even "most ethnically diverse". Abbotsford was "diverse" long before visible minorities becamse the obsession of StatsCan number crunches and CBC copywriters....the Mnenonite and German and Dutch populations are at least as significant as the fact that Abbotsford has more Cambodians than, say, Williams Lake.....Skookum1 (talk) 03:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Flag - green or blue?

There are two versions of Abbotsford's flag on the page. What's teh blue one for? Abbotsford's navy? Will somebody ratioalize having both of them, or remove the one that doesn't belong.....Skookum1 (talk) 03:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

The blue one is for the former District of Abbotsford and green was the new flag of the City of Abbotsford RebaFan1996 (talk) 23:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Religion?

I think more should be made of the religiosity of Abbotsford. Before it merged with Matsqui didn't it have the highest rate of churches per capita in North America or something like that? and didn't the Pope visit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.206.23 (talk) 23:02, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh really? --Orange Mike | Talk 19:41, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The Abbotsford Killer

I think the article should tell about the abbotsford killer in October 1995 I mean that scared us half to death we were worried to go out of our own home. It should even have it's own page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RebaFan1996 (talk • contribs) 00:03, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Was that the guy who turned out to be a cop? retired or otherwise? Or was he just arrested and then let go/acquitted? Terry something? The best place for such a request is on WP:WikiProject Crime....Skookum1 (talk) 02:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I created the article, Terry Driver, or Abbotsford killer. Could use some expanding. -- œ^™ 04:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Neighbourhoods

I decided to take the liberty of changing the neighbourhood names form neighbourhood, province to neighbourhood, city as per WP:CANSTYLE RebaFan1996 (talk) 17:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

WPCANYSTYLE also prescribes that if somewhere has a post office, or a separate historical identity, was a former municipality in its own right, or perhaps is geographically distinct though in the same incorporation, that comma-province should remain. Clayburn was always known as a separate town from the Village of Abbotsford, likewise of course Matsqui, as in Mastqui Village rather than the municipality as a whole (which inluded Bradner, Mount Lehman and Clearbrook). Core neighbourhoods like Clearbrook, fine then Clearbrook, Abbotsford is more or less a current usage and adjoins the old Village of Abbotsford directly - even though it had a separate post office and identity (and maybe still have a separate post office?), and while Huntingdon had a separate post office it's inconsequential enough and also so close to "downtown" Abby that Huntingdon, Abbotsford is OK. But Matsqui, Abbotsford isn't, especially because of the older District of Matsqui but also because Matsqui (village) remains a separate PO. And Clayburn should still be Clayburn, British Columbia; it was a company town and founded well before Abbotsford was....Skookum1 (talk) 15:07, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I think it's inappropriate to have an entire separate article with microscopic analysis of the demographics of this city, fine place though it may be. It reeks of undue emphasis. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:40, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree per nom, merge with the Abbotsford article.  єmarsee  • Speak up! 19:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Disagree Abbotsford has the 3rd highest proportion of visible minorities in Canada were not just talking about some town that like ranks 50th in proportions of visible minorties since it is the4 3rd highest in Canada I think it should have it's own article. RebaFan1996 (talk) 18:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment Abbotsford does not have the 3rd highest proportion of visible minorities. It's the the CMA which Abbotsford is in that has the 3rd highest proportion of minorities. Both Surrey and Richmond have higher percentage of visible minorities than Abbotsford. I believe over half of the people in Richmond are visible minorities and the only city that exceeds it is Markham, ON.  єmarsee  • Speak up! 20:00, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Either way, that's an argument for talking about it in this (otherwise short) article, not for creating a whole 'nother article elsewhere. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:15, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree, merge into the Abbotsford article. The larger table on Demographics of Abbotsford, British Columbia has way too much detail; one gets tired reading through it. The table entitled "Ethnic Origin by Regional grouping" is a more reasonable length and can be included in the Abbotsford article. PKT(alk) 17:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree only if table gets trimmed. Too much unencyclopedic trivial detail in that table to merge it. -- œ^™ 20:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree with merge. While the demographic makeup of a city is perfectly valid content in the city's own article, we really don't need standalone "Demographics of (City)" spinouts unless and until the city's article is much longer than Abbotsford's is. For what it's worth, we don't need Demographics of Vancouver in the 578K-central-city-only sense, either — Demographics of Greater Vancouver, sure, but not separate spinouts for each individual municipality in Greater Van. Bearcat (talk) 22:17, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree, but only merge what is necessary. Wikipedia is not an almanac or any sort of statistical database. I'm sure it's well researched and thought out, but it just doesn't belong. -Royalguard11(T) 03:18, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Agree I didn't dispute this, though I did notice when it happened, but while Abbotsford's democraphics are a large topic - as they are also for other BC cities, e.g. Nanaimo, Prince George, Victoria, Surrey could also use much more extensive sections/discussion, to name a few, the main Abbotsford article isn't large enough to warrant a separate article just on demographics. Also I'd like to note that nearly all Canadian demographics sections dwell obsessively on visible minorities/race, ethnicity, religion and language. US articles cover other material such as number/proportion of married vs single, age and income strata, types of employment/profession, levels of education, and other demographic data - not just the politics of cultural identity. I think you'd also find the same if you puttered around UK and Aussie town pages and what separate demographic articles may exist.Skookum1 (talk) 15:14, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

"Abbotsfordian" vs. "Abbotsfordite"

I was raised in MIssion and a staple in our household was CFVR radio, and regular reading was the Fraser Valley Record and MSA News newspapers. I don't recall so much as a single use of "Abbotsfordian" ever, and the term "Abbotsfordite" comes to me naturally when needing to refer to someone as being from there. I know, I know, I'm not a reliable source, but I'm also know I've heard "Abbotsfordite" on newscasts when events in Abbotsford are covered, or traffic cnogestion on Hwy 1 is talked about. Maybe the city has officially mandated "Abbotsfordian" but I daresay it's not the most common usage, even if it's official. Does the city use it in its own documents? The local newspapers?Skookum1 (talk) 15:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

http://www.bclocalnews.com/fraser_valley/abbynews/news/50292452.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Run34 (talk • contribs) 03:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Demographic data

I'm setting out to correct the ethnic bias/imbalance of visible-minority based representations of communities where the diversity of the non-visible minority is an mportant part of the place's history and identity. Not mentioning the Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians, Italians and Spanish (to say nothing of a British breakdown) is not just an oversight; it's rooted in a bias aqainst the idea that white people aren't diverse and therefore POV; my own POV is that the visible minority data sets are discriminatory at the same time as misleading, and that the classification was come up with explicitly to marginalize white minorities for political reasons. I'm placing this copy-paste from Census Canada here for calculation, table prep and quick reference purposes. A quick glance at the listings also shows the diversity of Abby's population, i.e. the full range of it, so I'm thinking all listings should be included, though the regional groupings would sort better in a separate table I think maybe.Skookum1 (talk) 06:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll be breaking this in two tables, with the regional breakdowns separately so the specific ethnicities can sort better. Not sure in some cases e.g. "Czech and Slovak origins" does not add up to Czech+Slovak+Czechoslovakian so those can't be combined, as I'd at first thought. Some of the ethnonyms hidden in the links I'm not sure of e.g. Goan etc so I ref'd the countries in some cases. This is important for Abbotsford but I intend to do the same for Mission, and also for Vancouver, where the visible-minority agenda has taken front-of-stage, which I don't think is right; various other towns in BC could use such a breakdown, esp. Prinxce George, Trail etc.Skookum1 (talk) 15:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The following are left over groups that are part of groups in the regional table, plus the combined european origins, just left here for reference.

Ethnic Origin by Regional grouping (leftover data)	Population	Percent of 156,640
European origins	71,320	45.53%
Pacific Islands origins	160	0.10
Czech and Slovak origins	965	0.62%
Scandinavian origins	11,235	7.17%
Baltic origins	345	0.22%

More on Demographics

Looking over the source file from StatsCan, there are other non-ethnic materials which are worth including and/or tableizing; rates of immigration and language use by Germans remains strong, emplyment and male/female ratios and other demographic data should have a place. Maybe there should be a Demographics of Abbotsford, British Columbia title as this is the third most ethnically-diverse city in Canada...which I suppose means in terms of number of ethnicities present (?).Skookum1 (talk) 17:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah thats true I'll try to make on. RebaFan1996 (talk) 23:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Looking at demographics, I see this: "Abbotsford's largest religious group is Christian at 61.4% of the population. The Lutheran and Anabaptist (Mennonite Brethren and Mennonite Church) denominations make up the largest congregations. The next largest religious group is Sikh, comprising 13.4% of the population." but there is no source for it. That information is not found in the 2006 census page provided. --Wck619 (talk) 20:50, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Government & Economy

the entire government section and the entire Economy section are derived from sources that have 404'd... can anyone get updated sources to support the information? --Wck619 (talk) 20:58, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Map

I think we need a map of where Abbotsford is. 24.86.195.132 (talk) 23:03, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Historical population

This needs amending badly and if pre-1976/amalgamation figures are to be given, the historical populations of the District of Sumas and District of Matsqui are not to be left out; the unexplained result in the table is misleading; mixing stats for the Village of Abbotsford vs the City of Abbotsford is not relevant.Skookum1 (talk) 01:57, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Climate section is overblown

I don't think I've ever seen such a lengthy climate section on any community article anywhere. Needs major trimming, it's also largely uncited, if at all; I just noticed while reviewing recent edits.Skookum1 (talk) 06:17, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit War NOT acceptable....

I'm avoiding WP:3RR and trust that Emarsee or TBrandley or others who have taken out the same thing I've deleted three times will do so again; and that this page either be semi-protected or the offending IP user BLOCKED. I'm tired of this b******t, either come up with a citation or don't, I don't believe you, I'm from the area, it's like an old saw I heard about how "native Vancouverites" are supposed to say "VanGcouver" and other such sillinesses; even CFVR's style guide won't be sufficient, and pronunciations are not easy to cite. They cannot be included if they are not cited.Skookum1 (talk) 14:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

It's obviously the same person, but now a second IP address, the first pair of uncited additions were 98.x.x.x and now three are from 205.x.x.x.x........this page needs a protect, and/or that IP user needs a block.Skookum1 (talk) 15:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The 205.x.x.x.x IP is from Public Works and Government Services Canada in Ottawa and the 98.x.x.x IP is from Surrey. I lived there for years and I can't remember anyone using AbbotsFORD. All I remember is Abbotsferd. We could probably go the same way dictionaries decide. They go by common usage and not by the dictates of a radio station. Someone could probably email a local paper to see if they have published an RS on the issue. In the meantime we shouldn't include either without an RS if it is that contentious.--Canoe1967 (talk) 17:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Announcers at CFVR Radio,the first radio station in AbbotsFORD were always instructed to pronounce the name as FORD. The village council were most adamant. That correct pronunciation comes from the community namesake, Harry Abbot who built the Mission Railway bridge for the CPR and thus "forded" the Fraser River. It is also associated with Sir Walter Scott's home Abbotsford House, that he named for a ford in the river nearby used by the Abbots of the nearby Abby. See the Wikipedia entry for Abbotsford House.

Do people from Abbotsford themselves use the CKNW-style pronunciation of articulating the 'o' in "-ford" (so that it sounds more like "Abbot's Ford" than a single, English word ("-ferd"))? I've always found that pronunciation curious (or at least a little unnatural in English, kind of like the Toronto pronunciation of "Dundas"). J21 17:48, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Yup. Think like a vehicle and you understand the usage.

Yeah, but it's not the traditional usage, which is more like "furd" or "ferd"; the overdone "f-O-rd" you hear on the Vancouver media is very stilted; "AbbotsFORD"; it might be somewhat endemic in Abby now because of all the people who've moved there, but the 'o' pronunciation is definitely "new"; it sounds like the accent is on the last syllable of the word, also; it's not, it's on the first. AB-bitsfurd is the right way. AbbotsFORD is very affected-sounding pronunication, and although it's in use in BC it has to do with transplanted broadcaster stylebooks and managers/anchors inducted from other parts of the country (particularly T.O.). BCTV, now Global, seemed to have started it as not all the networks used it at first as they do now (I just now heard it on CBC, in fact). That the media think it's right doesn't mean that it is, but no linguists have ever gone out and mapped BC accents/dialects (which do exist) and occur in subtle things like the way seemingly common-word names can be pronounced/misprounced. Another one that's getting me lately is "Deeze Lake" ("Dease" as in "pease porridge hot", rather than "crease" as it should be); both weather people on CBC and Global do that, neither from here. I've also heard (on air) Squaymish and Albern-eye. NB Broadcast English is generally mangled in all countries, including the UK and especially the US; often with extreme differences in pronunciation and intonation (Mexican car dealer ads and wrestling announcers sounding nothing like regular conversation). Skookum1 02:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC) PS is "Abby", the usual nickname, mentioned in the article? If not why not?Skookum1 02:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm from Abbotsford and we use ferd some people in our city rarely say ford only if they have a accent.RebaFan1996

Announcers at CFVR Radio,established in 1962 the first radio station in AbbotsFORD were always instructed to pronounce the name as FORD. The village council was most adamant. That correct pronouciation comes from the community namesake, Harry Abbot who built the Mission Railway bridge for the CPR and thus "forded" the Fraser River. It is also associated with Sir Walter Scotts home Abbotsford House, that he named for a ford in the river nearby used by the Abbots of the nearby Abby. See the wikipedia entry for Abbotsford House.

Well, I was raised listening to CFVR daily, non-stop, and went to Mission High and frequented Abby a few times a week; and *I* never heard them use that. Your rationale about Harry Abbott "fording" the Fraser River is rubbish. And how the pronunciation in Scotland is is irrelevant to Canadian English and how this name is spoken by locals. "the village council was most adamant" is something you're gonna have to cite, I've met Abbotsford politicians (my mother was Deputy Mayor of Mission but I met them a long time before that, also) and grew up with people from AbbotsFERD; we were never - NEVER - taught that AbbotsFORD was how it's pronounced, and it sounds alien to me when I hear it on BCTV or CBC.Skookum1 (talk) 04:58, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

You might want to check with Bob Singleton or Gerry Pash who ran CFVR and moved the station from the Park Hotel to Allwood Street. It was also the practice of the forecaster from the Canadian Weather Service to use the correct AbbotsFORD. The use of FERD is not unlike the incorrect varied pronounciation of crick for creek, or ruff for roof. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.156.109 (talk) 05:05, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I disagree strongly with your comparison to creek/crick, and roof/ruff is a dialect distinction for various parts of both Canada and the US. AbbotsFORD sounds stilted and unnatural to me, and I was raised listening to the very radio station you claim (but do not cite) and the rest of BC media....it wasn't until the '90s or early '00s that I EVER heard "AbbotsFORD" on TV or radio.Skookum1 (talk) 05:37, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Consolidating this from a separate section I'd started below, moved it up here:

Re the IP user who keeps on putting in and re-adding "AbbotsFORD", I'm from the area, it IS pronounced "ABBotsferd" by locals......citing this is problematic, partly because provincial and national-level broadcasters, who are not from the area do often use "AbbotsFORD" but it sounds stilted and, um, they're just not from there. Teleprompter English is what it is; it's not common speech. Claire Martin, who's the national weatherperson, says for example "DeaZe Lake" instead of DeaSe Lake, my contact at CBC (Mark Forsythe) commented to me that she begs that off by referring to her Cockney accent. CFVR radio probably gets it right. The IP user is persistent, however, despite never providing a citation for what he's so insistent on....but I'm insistent too. AbbotsFORD sounds as weird as Nana-EEmo, which I've heard non-BCers come up with, Co-KEET-lam or Kel-OW-na. Just not right, no matter how a newcomer or somebody media-washed thinks is right.Skookum1 (talk) 04:53, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

CFVR did get it right! The best historical citation is the original connection to Abbotsford House and Harry Abbot. Sir Walter Scott named his estate Abbotsford as described above and in the Wikipedia article with the reference to "ford" as in to ford a river. I can state from first hand knowledge that the fathers of the Village of Abbotsford and the owners of Fraser Valley Radio were very clear about the proper pronounciation as early as 1962 and likely before that at CHWK from Chilliwack. Any new announcer who said FERD was quickly corrected by the locals who would phone to welcome the newbie, and his employer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.156.109 (talk) 06:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

they never corrected me or anybody I know. Wikipedia is about citable claims, not personal reportage anyway. To me that sounds wrong and I was raised with that station, and on the streets of Mission and the stores and offices of Clearbrook, and I worked and lived in the Lower Mainland for 40 years; on this issue in fact I'd polled friends from the Valley and we ALL say "AB-botsferd". Clearly there's a disputed pronunciation, but only a citation of any specific is acceptable in the article; otherwise no pronunciation is given. I'm turning 58 this fall....how old are you? When did you move to the Valley or are you from there? Skookum1 (talk) 11:21, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps it mattered more for the 1,200 residents of the Village of Abbotsford. In more recent years the correct and arguably pedantic but correct pronounciation AbbotsFORD was overcome by the less connected populations of Sumas and later Matsqui with the casual and lazier FERD, a pronounciation that is not supported by the orgins of the name as reported by the Abbotsford Historical Society. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.194.127.36 (talk) 14:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

How the locals pronounce it to someone's ears is completely irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is that this piece of information has no reference and since it's obviously contentious it cannot go in unless there is a reliable reference for it. Currently there is no reference so therefore it cannot go in. How it sounds like someone says on a radio is not a reference. Needs a formal reference. Canterbury Tail talk 15:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

"less connected population.....lazier" Um, it's not like Abby had a moat around it or Clearbrook didn't start on its western border, a whole half inch away, and how people in either District, or in Aldergrove or Langley or Mission say it doesn't matter or are "lazier" or "less connected". This just proves how POV the claim is, and "uppity". I can't cite what I'm saying either, but I'm not gonna deny my own upbringing's usages and the local dialect because someone else claims the people of Abbotsford and CFVR spoke differently from people in Matsqui Village or Mount Lehman or Huntingdon or Clearbrook.....I don't recall Abbotsfordites being snotty....maybe I just never met you (IP user), however....It's not like the change from Essendene Avenue to South Fraser Way had a checkpoint or a "you will now pronounce Abbotsford this way sign......Skookum1 (talk) 15:50, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Looking for a reference. Listen to the audio file at this link http://www.memidex.com/abbotsford — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.194.127.36 (talk) 17:47, 22 July 2013 (UTC) A recording of a Scottish accent/pronunciation from yet another UGC site is not a reference.......once again you're pointing to Scotland to claim that's how things are pronounced in BC....but apparently you're in Ottawa, so.....Skookum1 (talk) 18:10, 22 July 2013 (UTC) Hardly a Scottish accent. North American pronunciation is listed and recorded as AbbotsFORD. Further the history itself is clear ... quote from the article "Until 1922 the name was spelled Abottsford. Maclure's sons later stated that the property had actually been named for Sir Walter Scott's home, Abbotsford, while in his later years Maclure himself claimed that the naming had been "a combination of two ideas".[5]" Sir Walter Scott pronounced it AbbotsFORD as per the genesis of the name "the ford across the river to the nearby monastery used by the Abbots) The same whimsy was used by McClure in naming the village. There is no Canadian or Scottish pronunciation. Just the correct pronunciation that is recognized by the pioneers of Abbotsford who run the MSA Museum. The management at Fraser Valley Radio taught their announcers correctly and were in tune with the community as noted above. The phones would go crazy when a new announcer used FERD. Yes,I have lived in Abbotsford and I am considerably older than Mr. Skookum. I have also contributed much to the community. But that is all irrelevant to the matter at hand. AbbotsFORD may sound pedantic, but it never the less is the correct historical pronunciation founded in the birth of the community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.156.109 (talk) 03:55, 23 July 2013 (UTC) I think, you're full of it and talking about things that have nothing to do with how it IS pronounced now, and I'm not the only one here saying "AB-botsfurd". How you claim it WAS intended to be pronounced means nothing; and any recording you can find will have credibility and neutrality issues and WP:RS on such is not gonna be found. Go away.Skookum1 (talk) 04:14, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

As you have pointed out it IS pronounced FERD and it IS pronounced FORD. No one is required to "deny their upbringing" or give up anything to use the correct pronunciation. One just embraces the history of the community and the intent of the man who named the village and join those who use the the correct FORD that is cited to the Walter Scott's founding of Abbotsford. There is absolutely nothing to support the use of FERD other than it is a colloquial pronunciation used by some, while FORD is correctly used by a few. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.156.109 (talk) 06:22, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Gee, on the one hand you say it was named for Harry Abbott, then you keep on bringing up Sir Walter Scott. Could you get our WP:Original research straight. There is no "correct" Canadian pronunciation, but there is (as evinced by those other actual British Columbians on this page familiar with the place, MOSTCOMMON pronunciation, the one you styled as "lazy" and were hostile to but now condescend to admit it exists. Nothing you say about "correct" is citable, and your logics don't even get straight where the name comes from, you give two stories for that, and called your post/edit comment "clarity"......you're flogging a dead horse, and have been prevented from editing the article again. Do you get it? You're out of line, no citation, advancing original research, putting forward two conflicting name theories, and claiming without ANY citation (other than a spurious and UGC online encyclopedia) that the 1400 people of the old Village of Abbotsford somehow spoke differently than those in Clearbrook or Kinnaird or Clayburn or Matsqui or Mount Lehman.....which they did not. I've been in Abbotsford a few hundred times or more....and you??? Either you're in Surrey or in Ottawa, by the two IPs you've been using (and why is that anyway?), why are you making such a fuss about somewhere you obviously don't know f-all about.Skookum1 (talk) 07:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Once this thread reaches more than the article we should have an RfC. That RfC will contain even more bytes than both put together. Finally, after mucho discussion there will probably be a section created about the controversy of the pronunciation. Just my 2c of prediction though.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:40, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Great idea! The only outcome would be AbbotsFORD as there is a direct line from John MacLure to the CPR Superintendent Harry Abbot who "forded" the Fraser River with the bridge at Mission and to Sir Walter Scott's estate AbbotsFORD named for the ford that the abbots used to cross the river to the Monastery at Melrose. http://www.msamuseum.ca/abbotsford-history/general-history/ and from the AbbotsFORD news November, 2010. "The origin of the name “Abbotsford,” according to a 1924 letter from J.C. Maclure Jr. to the Abbotsford Board of Trade, is a combination of two ideas. The name commemorates a friend of the Maclure family, Harry Braithwaite Abbott. It is also a reference to Sir Walter Scott’s home, Abbotsford Castle in Scotland. http://www.abbotsford.ca/Asset14622.aspx?method=1

• Sir Walter Scott himself said AbbotsFORD. http://archive.org/stream/abbotsford01crocgoog#page/n22/mode/2up See the bottom of this page of the history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.156.109 (talk) 05:39, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Walter Scott never lived in Abbotsford, British Columbia, and never set foot on Canadian soil. He did not speak Canadian English, nor ever meet an inhabitant of the place that you are adamant his pronunciation should she mandatory for. Wrong ballpark, and CANENGL applies here, not juxtapositions from another country and another time and another dialect about another place.Skookum1 (talk) 08:50, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Interesting discussion. CANENGL would include words like afford, oxford, telford and the verb ford, (to cross a river) or the noun ford (a river crossing) both of which put the FORD in Abbotsford according to how the originator of the village chose the name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.50.86.210 (talk) 03:28, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Oh, so to you OxFORD (not OXferd) is "more correct" and "Telford" is not "TELfurd", which is how a Canadian would pronounce that name (in fact I knew Telford Oliver, the CBC announcer/broadcaster, personally. He wasn't tel-FORD. Go away, you're spouting nonsense AGAIN.Skookum1 (talk) 04:11, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• • So much for trying to be of assistance from over here??

According to the Oxford City Guide, the name Oxford comes from the old term “Oxamfordd” which literally meant a ford (shallow crossing) in the river where the cattle (Oxen) could cross safely. It is the same notion that would put the FORD in Abbotsford as named by the villages founder John MacClure.

“telford” is a type of road pavement. However, as it is brought up TelFORD Oliver was much more precise about his name when he worked at CJAT in Trail. Perhaps later, not so much?

“afford” there seems to be agreement

It might be helpful to resolve this if we exam this discussion.

The addition of the pronunciation was added to the article in good faith.

The primary critic (Skookum1) attacked the proposition as being rubbish and without substance, declaring unilaterally that the pronunciation is FERD rather than FORD because he had never heard it spoken as FORD except by outsiders in the media in recent years. The critic was fierce to state it could only be FERD, because FORD sounded stilted, affected and alien to him, but admittedly he did not have any citation to support FERD as being correct except there is some common usage.

To restore calm, Canterbury Tail offered that, “How the locals pronounce it to someone;s ears is completely irrelevant and asked that the original poster provide a reliable reference. TBrandly asked for some consensus.

In addition to some non-citable information, the original poster plays nice and provides three citations to support the FORD position with links to the origin of the name (that is already in the article unmolested) explaining how John McClure, who laid out the original village, honoured his friend Harry Abbot and connected the name to Sir Walter Scott’s AbbotsFORD estate. The citations refer to the local newspaper, the Abbotsford News, The MSA Museum Society (of Abbotsford) and a reliable published source about Scott’s AbbotsFORD.

There is another IP post to an audio link to a pronunciation guide.

The primary critic dismisses the references as nonsense but does not provide any substantive reference to the contrary.

On the balance of probabilities in the absence of any citation that would support the use of the truncated Abbotsf’rd, the evidence points to Abbotsford as quite plausibly the original and official pronunciation.

While not citable, it is verifiable, that there was an event in the second week of May in the Matsqui Centennial Theatre next to Abbotsford City Hall, attended by the Mayor, the Chief Constable and a diverse audience where the speaker invoked the history of the community including the first nations and the early settlers and recounted much the same story as noted here regarding the City’s name. The diverse audience including some long time residents, expressed appreciation that AbbotsFORD was used and highlighted as the historically correct pronunciation.

For consideration.

Spewing nonsensical original research is not relevant here, and while I'm the most vocal and voluble critic of your silly logic and claims here, I'm certainly not the only one. That you would even include the verb "afford" in your comparisons just shows how off-the-wall what you're claiming really is, and how far you will got to spread nuisance and confusion and waste people's time. Comparisons to other +ford names and the ongoing claim that you are correct and the usage-as-spoken by people in the region is somehow incorrect and "lazy" is just.....NUTS.Skookum1 (talk) 04:47, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation: arbitrary break

With only a few editors discussing it then any pronunciation should be left out pending RfC. We also may wish to bring it up at WP:RD/L as well as Wikipedia:WikiProject Linguistics. This will get more input before the final RfC decides that both will be included with RS and no OR in their own section on the pronunciation controversy.--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:09, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I am revising the heading of this subsection from Arbitrary break to Pronunciation: arbitrary break, in harmony with WP:TPOC, point 13 (Section headings). Please see Microcontent: How to Write Headlines, Page Titles, and Subject Lines. The new heading facilitates recognition of the topic in links and watchlists and tables of contents.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:25, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Forvo has one pronunciation at http://www.forvo.com/search/Abbotsford/.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:56, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

YouTube has more than 10,000 search results at http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=abbotsford+interview+local.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:27, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll shut up for now, but all five of those I've just listened to use ABbotsferd......including the mayor - can't post a youtube link here, the title is "An interview with Mayor Bruce Banman of Abbotsford, BC", who is a descendant of one of the Three Greenhorns and tied to the area's history, on the one side, and Mennonite - very Abbotsford - on the other. No AbbotsFORD here......but isn't it OR to study and compile data on all these links? There is no official pronunciation, but as the videos prove, there is a standard one...including a Scottish guy in the airshow interview.Skookum1 (talk) 17:57, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I guess he wasn't at that meeting....:-|.Skookum1 (talk) 17:57, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

One particular video, "My City is Abbotsford" demonstrates a range of pronunciations from f'rd to fard and FORD. In practice, there probably is no consensus, just personal manner with the same person using different pronunciations depending upon emphasis. However,the origin remains the same. In another video, a teacher who ran for mayor uses FORD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.50.86.210 (talk) 21:10, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

You've been loudly claiming that "ferd" is incorrect and lazy and being adamant that what you have been claiming is "correct". If someone with deep roots in the community who is mayor pronounces it the "lazy" way then it's pretty much a given taht all your windbaggery was totally wrong. "A teacher that ran for mayor"....how long has she lived there, where is she from? Any analysis of all these is original research anyway, and not admissible as "evidence". This whole matter is a waste of time, caused by your repeatedly vandalizing the page, without citation, and as noted below it's obviously something to do with a locally-whippe-up controversy...the mayor must have been at that meeting you claim it was decided that "FORD" would be correct, evidently they were criticizing him. Ever heard of politics??Skookum1 (talk) 02:57, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

It should either be both included or none. If we only include one then those that disagree will just put a POV tag on it. Since it will be in the lead the section tag will be at the top of the article. Should we all agree now to include both and the controversy or take it to RfC that will come to the same conclusion? --Canoe1967 (talk) 21:21, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree to mentioning both pronunciations of "Abbotsford", as I also recommend mentioning both pronunciations of "Shuswap". Please see User talk:Kwamikagami/Archive 21#pronunciation of "Shuswap" for IPA if you've got a moment (April 2013).

–Wavelength (talk) 21:34, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I lived and worked with Shuswap bands for a long time. Their English pronunciation was always 'shoe swap'. I doubt I will bother with that discussion as they never cared how it was pronounced in English. This Abbotsford issue seems to be a local controversy that wants to spread to Wikipedia though. They will probably argue that we are some kind of authority on the name of their city. I do feel there is a big local issue with it or the radio station wouldn't care so much.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:47, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Origin of the name http://archive.org/stream/abbotsford01crocgoog#page/n22/mode/2up — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.55.192.204 (talk) 04:06, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Coordinate error

{{geodata-check}}

The following coordinate fixes are needed for

—96.55.51.61 (talk) 00:45, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

 Not done. Nothing wrong with the coordinates currently in the article. Deor (talk) 13:12, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

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