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Change article title?Edit

I think there is an argument for leaving the "Malibu" out of the title as the incident took place nowhere near Malibu: as far as I can see this potential confusion is the only contribution that it makes to the article. Britmax (talk) 18:23, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that word is ambiguous on its own. But I think the article gives more than enough explanatory context. Using aircraft model is a typical way to name this type of article, see Category:Aviation accidents and incidents by aircraft. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:30, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
The fact that the first internal link which has Malibu in the title goes straight to the article about the plane is pretty clear to the reader. I see no need to drop the name of the plane. Govvy (talk) 18:33, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Can't see a real problem here. The Piper Malibu is a well-known light aircraft and it is clearly explained and linked.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:34, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
User Britmax has a point: the title lacks the place where the accident occurred, which is required by the project guidelines (WP:AATF). The only place-name in the title is Malibu, which refers instead to aircraft model; that is bound to create confusion. Either way, the title should be tweaked. --Deeday-UK (talk) 18:43, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Looking at Category:Aviation accidents and incidents in the Channel Islands, we have quite a mixture - one with the model, one with the flight number and one with a location. Date also varies. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Now the coverage has settled down, we should probably look to see if there's a WP:COMMONNAME amongst the reliable sources, and if there is, use that. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:09, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
That's an idea. Britmax (talk) 23:33, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

I regret dredging this topic back up again, but there was a two-fatality PA-46 crash in the United States in February and another in Canada two days ago, and it's likely there will be (or already are) others, as this is a commonplace aircraft that's not large enough to be subject to more stringent classes of aviation safety requirements. The Sala crash isn't consistently called the "2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash" on sources outside of Wikipedia, and it doesn't seem to have picked up any particular common colloquial name. I think the current title is still too ambiguous and I vote for adding "Channel Islands" to it. Carguychris (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

I was thinking along the same line. It definitely needs some geographic reference, but I think "English Channel" would be better: the aircraft didn't crash on any island, after all. --Deeday-UK (talk) 23:50, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
I don't think that adding "Channel Islands" would be a great help. You would be surprised how many people don't know where they are. The French language article title is "Accident de l'avion d'Emiliano Sala" "Emiliano Sala air accident" and this is probably simpler and more explanatory for average reader. The Spanish title is "Accidente del Piper PA-46 en 2019" which is similar to the English version.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 04:39, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
I like the idea of changing the title "2019 Emiliano Sala air accident," as it's simple, self-explanatory, and extremely unlikely to be confused with any other potential incident. Carguychris (talk) 18:10, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Willie McKay BBC interviewEdit

Willie McKay has given an interview to BBC News, but I'm not sure if it adds much to what is known already.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:51, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

As he is notable in his own right, I have added a couple of sentences to the Sala article. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:42, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
There are also some new WhatsApp messages from Sala. Again, they don't reveal much that is new, but it is interesting that Sala says that he will be flying back to Cardiff "lundi soir" (Monday evening). This leads to a fresh puzzle over why the flight plan originally specified 10 AM French time.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:23, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Those WhatsApp screen shots clearly show the time the messages were received. But what was the date? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:37, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Unfortunately this isn't clear. Ibbotson flew the Piper Malibu to Nantes on Saturday 19 January, and stayed at the Hotel Kyriad on Saturday and Sunday evening. There is more detail here. Somehow the scheduled Monday morning takeoff was delayed until the evening. The previous source is also worrying, as it would have been risky to use a tablet PC app to plan a flight with visual flight rules (VFR) if the flight was after dark. Here is an example of an app that can recommend flight plans. It is not clear which app Ibbotson used.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 16:03, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

David Ibbotson's financial problemsEdit

It has been reported that David Ibbotson had various financial problems [1] but at the moment this is not directly related to the crash. It is worth bearing in mind for future reference.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 07:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and not just at Grimsby Live. Our favourite reliable newspaper had "Debt-ridden Emiliano Sala pilot was touting for work on Facebook and hired at 11th hour" as long ago as 25 January. But it also had the suggestion that "an iced-up instrument may have shown pilot the wrong altitude" attributed to Julian Bray: [2]. I'm really not sure how such a theory could ever be tested, even with all wreckage brought to the surface . Martinevans123 (talk) 10:10, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Argentinian aviation expert Commander Jorge Polanco suggested that the plane may have iced up immediately after the disappearance in January [3][4] but the weather was not exceptionally cold at the time. We know from the interim accident report that the request to reduce altitude was due to a problem with maintaining visual meteorological conditions. If nothing substantial is found to be wrong with the aircraft after raising it from the seabed, a likely cause will be failure of VMC disorientating the pilot at night and over water, much like the John F. Kennedy Jr. plane crash in 1999.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 13:33, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. Is it still planned to raise the wreckage? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:36, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Presumably the wreckage will be raised at some point, but there doesn't seem to be any confirmed timetable. Maybe it needs better weather.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 13:47, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 19 May 2019Edit

2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash2019 Emiliano Sala air accident – Per WP:PRECISE and WP:COMMONNAME. The Piper PA-46 is a commonplace general aviation aircraft that is typically involved in a significant number of fatal accidents in any given year, most of which do not meet accepted community guidelines for notability. The present title does not convey adequate information to tell the reader which PA-46 crash is discussed or why this particular one is notable. The death of Emiliano Sala is of widespread interest to readers who have little familiarity with aviation, and the titles of most press articles about the crash refer to Sala without referring to the aircraft type, so it makes sense to name the article after the man rather than the aircraft. Carguychris (talk) 00:07, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

  • Support per John F. Kennedy Jr. plane crash. People aren't all that interested in the fact that JFK Jr. was flying a Piper Saratoga at the time. 2019 Emiliano Sala plane crash is another option. We know from the interim accident report that the plane crashed rather than attempting an emergency landing, although the final report has yet to be published.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 04:58, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:PRECISE, and the fact that many aircraft of this type have crashes so it isn't a uniquely identifying name. Plus the only reason this is notable is because Sala was there. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:20, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Unsure. The AAIB Special Bulletin is titled "Piper PA-46-310P Malibu, N264DB". Maybe we should align with that? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:30, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose a move to a tabloid type title also the accident is also noteworthy for the alleged number of regulations that have been ignored or bypassed by those other than Sala that are involved. MilborneOne (talk) 08:35, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose with possibilities: Plane crash would be more WP:COMMONNAME and also consistent with similar articles (JKF Junior, Graham Hill etc). '2019' is redundant for an event so tightly associated with a notable individual, and again not consistent with existing articles. In short, I would support moving to Emiliano Sala plane crash, but not the current proposal. --Deeday-UK (talk) 11:43, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose Very few aircraft accident articles have the name of the famous person on board in the title. Of the articles 58 references 2 refer to it as "Emiliano Sala plane crash", not really enough to justify Wikipedia:COMMONNAME. The place where the accident happened really should be in the title, (<year> <place> <event>) please see Accident article naming conventions. Because no airline or flight number exists I suggest the title 2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash. As a side note with no disrespect meant to Emiliano Sala, I'd wager that more people worldwide could identify what a Piper PA-46 is than know who Emiliano Sala was. - Samf4u (talk) 11:50, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
I would equally support 2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash, which includes the geographic location and removes the confusing 'Malibu'. --Deeday-UK (talk) 14:37, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
I plan to subsequently post a move request using that exact title if this merge request fails consensus. I figured I would start with the potentially more controversial name. Also, I strongly concur about the "Malibu" name—the PA-46 poses a unique problem with the usual Year-Place-Type accident article name format. Carguychris (talk) 00:34, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 11:33, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
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