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Talk:2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash

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Change article title?Edit

I think there is an argument for leaving the "Malibu" out of the title as the incident took place nowhere near Malibu: as far as I can see this potential confusion is the only contribution that it makes to the article. Britmax (talk) 18:23, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that word is ambiguous on its own. But I think the article gives more than enough explanatory context. Using aircraft model is a typical way to name this type of article, see Category:Aviation accidents and incidents by aircraft. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:30, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
The fact that the first internal link which has Malibu in the title goes straight to the article about the plane is pretty clear to the reader. I see no need to drop the name of the plane. Govvy (talk) 18:33, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Can't see a real problem here. The Piper Malibu is a well-known light aircraft and it is clearly explained and linked.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:34, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
User Britmax has a point: the title lacks the place where the accident occurred, which is required by the project guidelines (WP:AATF). The only place-name in the title is Malibu, which refers instead to aircraft model; that is bound to create confusion. Either way, the title should be tweaked. --Deeday-UK (talk) 18:43, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Looking at Category:Aviation accidents and incidents in the Channel Islands, we have quite a mixture - one with the model, one with the flight number and one with a location. Date also varies. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Now the coverage has settled down, we should probably look to see if there's a WP:COMMONNAME amongst the reliable sources, and if there is, use that. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:09, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
That's an idea. Britmax (talk) 23:33, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

I regret dredging this topic back up again, but there was a two-fatality PA-46 crash in the United States in February and another in Canada two days ago, and it's likely there will be (or already are) others, as this is a commonplace aircraft that's not large enough to be subject to more stringent classes of aviation safety requirements. The Sala crash isn't consistently called the "2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash" on sources outside of Wikipedia, and it doesn't seem to have picked up any particular common colloquial name. I think the current title is still too ambiguous and I vote for adding "Channel Islands" to it. Carguychris (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

I was thinking along the same line. It definitely needs some geographic reference, but I think "English Channel" would be better: the aircraft didn't crash on any island, after all. --Deeday-UK (talk) 23:50, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
I don't think that adding "Channel Islands" would be a great help. You would be surprised how many people don't know where they are. The French language article title is "Accident de l'avion d'Emiliano Sala" "Emiliano Sala air accident" and this is probably simpler and more explanatory for average reader. The Spanish title is "Accidente del Piper PA-46 en 2019" which is similar to the English version.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 04:39, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
I like the idea of changing the title "2019 Emiliano Sala air accident," as it's simple, self-explanatory, and extremely unlikely to be confused with any other potential incident. Carguychris (talk) 18:10, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 19 May 2019Edit

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is no consensus for this requested move. (closed by non-admin page mover) qedk (t c) 13:02, 27 May 2019 (UTC)


2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash2019 Emiliano Sala air accident – Per WP:PRECISE and WP:COMMONNAME. The Piper PA-46 is a commonplace general aviation aircraft that is typically involved in a significant number of fatal accidents in any given year, most of which do not meet accepted community guidelines for notability. The present title does not convey adequate information to tell the reader which PA-46 crash is discussed or why this particular one is notable. The death of Emiliano Sala is of widespread interest to readers who have little familiarity with aviation, and the titles of most press articles about the crash refer to Sala without referring to the aircraft type, so it makes sense to name the article after the man rather than the aircraft. Carguychris (talk) 00:07, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

  • Support per John F. Kennedy Jr. plane crash. People aren't all that interested in the fact that JFK Jr. was flying a Piper Saratoga at the time. 2019 Emiliano Sala plane crash is another option. We know from the interim accident report that the plane crashed rather than attempting an emergency landing, although the final report has yet to be published.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 04:58, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:PRECISE, and the fact that many aircraft of this type have crashes so it isn't a uniquely identifying name. Plus the only reason this is notable is because Sala was there. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:20, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Unsure. The AAIB Special Bulletin is titled "Piper PA-46-310P Malibu, N264DB". Maybe we should align with that? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:30, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose a move to a tabloid type title also the accident is also noteworthy for the alleged number of regulations that have been ignored or bypassed by those other than Sala that are involved. MilborneOne (talk) 08:35, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose with possibilities: Plane crash would be more WP:COMMONNAME and also consistent with similar articles (JKF Junior, Graham Hill etc). '2019' is redundant for an event so tightly associated with a notable individual, and again not consistent with existing articles. In short, I would support moving to Emiliano Sala plane crash, but not the current proposal. --Deeday-UK (talk) 11:43, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose Very few aircraft accident articles have the name of the famous person on board in the title. Of the articles 58 references 2 refer to it as "Emiliano Sala plane crash", not really enough to justify Wikipedia:COMMONNAME. The place where the accident happened really should be in the title, (<year> <place> <event>) please see Accident article naming conventions. Because no airline or flight number exists I suggest the title 2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash. As a side note with no disrespect meant to Emiliano Sala, I'd wager that more people worldwide could identify what a Piper PA-46 is than know who Emiliano Sala was. - Samf4u (talk) 11:50, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
I would equally support 2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash, which includes the geographic location and removes the confusing 'Malibu'. --Deeday-UK (talk) 14:37, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
I plan to subsequently post a move request using that exact title if this merge request fails consensus. I figured I would start with the potentially more controversial name. Also, I strongly concur about the "Malibu" name—the PA-46 poses a unique problem with the usual Year-Place-Type accident article name format. Carguychris (talk) 00:34, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 11:33, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Would we not expect readers to actually read the article, and not make unfounded assumptions on the basis of just reading the title - even if they were Americans? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:16, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
No, they don't have to read the article, if they think it's the wrong article. Readers looking for Sala's accident who are presented with 2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash (e.g. in the pop-up list of the 'Search Wikipedia' box) may well fail to realise it's the title of the correct article, thinking instead it's about some unrelated crash in Malibu, California. We should make the title as unambiguous as possible. --Deeday-UK (talk) 19:48, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Then I guess it's time to close this particular RM and open a new one for 2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:03, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 29 May 2019Edit

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved. See general agreement below to rename this article as requested. Kudos to editors for your input, and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover) Paine Ellsworthed. put'r there  23:33, 29 June 2019 (UTC)


2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash – Per WP:PRECISE. The Piper PA-46 is a commonplace general aviation aircraft that is typically involved in a significant number of fatal accidents in any given year, most of which do not meet accepted community guidelines for notability. The present title does not convey adequate information to tell the reader which PA-46 crash is discussed. The proposed title complies with community guidelines and was broadly endorsed during discussion of the previous proposal to move the page to "2019 Emiliano Sala air accident." Carguychris (talk) 14:08, 29 May 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 20:46, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

  • Weak support: I'm not sure if this is a big improvement on the current title. Some people think that the word "Malibu" is confusing, but there are various Piper planes and the Piper PA-46 is one of them. The phrase "Piper Malibu" would be known to someone who is familiar with light aircraft. It doesn't mean that the crash occurred in Malibu, California.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 16:52, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose: I've changed my mind here, as I don't believe that dropping the "Malibu" part and adding "English Channel" is a great improvement, or broadly in line with the accident naming conventions.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 16:57, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
So you think it's an improvement nevertheless, even if not "great"; why oppose it then? And having the place of the event in the title is in line with naming conventions – see WP:AATF. It's the current title that is not in line. --Deeday-UK (talk) 20:46, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm not convinced that people are going to think that the accident was in Malibu, California on the basis of the current title.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 05:32, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Support – per previous discussion. Definitely an improvement from the current title, with any ambiguity about the location removed. It is also fully compliant with current WP:AATF article title conventions. --Deeday-UK (talk) 17:06, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose mainly due to the dropping the correct aircraft name, allegedly to help confused Americans. As far as I am aware it is the only noteworthy Malibu accident in 2019. MilborneOne (talk) 17:09, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
We drop the model name and leave only the model number all the time, if it's unnecessary or makes the title too cumbersome (and it's not just Americans who know about the city of Malibu and could get confused). Besides, is there a good reason not to follow project guidelines? --Deeday-UK (talk) 17:42, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Did someone mention Malibu? Better than two bottles of vodka, I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:54, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
*The Day the Music Died involved a Beechcraft Bonanza, but it was nowhere the Ponderosa Ranch. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:28, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Support In ictu oculi (talk) 18:23, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Support For reasons in previous discussion. I believe it is the best compromise for this article title. - Samf4u (talk) 02:12, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 10:16, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
You mean the guidance which suggests the : <year> <airline> <aircraft> <event> format (which this is, minus name of airline, which is irrelevant?) GiantSnowman 14:13, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
No, he meant the format <year> <place> <event>, which is the recommended one if the Airline/Flight No. scheme is not applicable. --Deeday-UK (talk) 20:50, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose: as per MilborneOne and ianmacm. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:39, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Support: (sorry Martin) I agree with Samf4u, this is probably the best compromise according to current guidelines, although it's still a bit cumbersome. I didn't contribute to the other move discussion (mainly 'cos I wasn't sure at the time) but I do think that including Sala's name in the article title is perhaps not the best solution here, as I suspect a lot of people (like me, not in the slightest bit interested in football) had never heard of him before this crash happened (unlike JFK Jr. for example). Rodney Baggins (talk) 17:45, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
  • I'd have to concede that this request is better than the previous one. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:41, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Query: I notice that two editors voted in favour of this exact article title in the previous RM (19 May) but they've not commented here and we're already 4 days into the discussion. Would it be OK to ping them so their votes get counted here? Or would that be a form of canvassing? At the end of the day, I'm only asking because they voted the same way as me, and I might have kept quiet otherwise... WP:CAN says it's OK to inform editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic, provided you inform equally those who are for and against an argument. In this case, there was no-one who specifically opposed using the title that is currently being proposed. Rodney Baggins (talk) 18:13, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support per my !vote above. -- King of ♠ 01:08, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support Originally I planned to close this discussion, but I thought it better to participate. I find the arguments of the supporters more convincing. Those in favor of the move claim that the new title would be more precise and is recommended by the guideline on accident article naming conventions. Those opposed to the move argue that the current title is precise enough as there is no need to disambiguate this from other 2019 crashes. But even if the current title is precise enough to disambiguate as the opposition argues, per WP:PRECISION Exceptions to the precision criterion may sometimes result from the application of some other naming criteria. The other naming criteria in this case seem to be consistency and naturalness. The existence of the WP:AATF guideline suggests that there is wider consensus for articles like this to prioritize consistency (which would be the <year> <place> <event> format as there is no airline involved) and naturalness (I don't think we should expect our readers to know the plane model in order to find this event) over being no more precise than necessary. While, yes, the fact that it didn't take place in Malibu is clear from the article, the point of an article title is so that readers know they've arrived at the right place. It is very possible that readers may not read the article and realize this after seeing a title that says "Malibu crash" when they were looking for the one in the English Channel. For users on the app searching, they may not even click to read anything more than the title. All of this suggests that the WP:AATF guideline makes sense here and should be followed. I agree with the support arguments put forward so far. Wugapodes [thɑk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɹɪbz] 02:05, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. Clear and unambiguous. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:58, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose - the current title fits the accepted naming convention for aircraft accident articles. There's no strong reason to deviate in this case. Mjroots (talk) 17:43, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Excuse me? it's the current title that deviates from the accepted convention, because it lacks the place where the event occurred. The proposed new title, instead, fits the convention fully – It's all laid out at WP:AATF. --Deeday-UK (talk) 17:57, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
It appears to be AATF that is at odds with the generally accepted naming convention. Where a non-scheduled flight is involved, articles usually take the form of <year>(<airline>)<aircraft><event> with further disambiguation by month if necessary, as with the two 1926 Air Union Blériot 155 crashes. Mjroots (talk) 20:42, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Did you notice that AATF also indicates the more general format : <year> <place> <event> , which has already been widely adopted? e.g. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 in the last two years alone. Why should this article not follow the same scheme? --Deeday-UK (talk) 21:06, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support - per nom. - ZLEA T\C 00:09, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support; the nomination's point is definitely valid - there have been at least eight PA-46 crashes this year, and seven of those involved a Malibu or a Malibu Mirage. Most of them are, completely correctly, not notable enough for an article here - but the current title of the page could unnecessarily describe any of them. Additionally, given that most of the PA-46 crashes seem to be some variant of a "Malibu" model, the addition of the word to the title offers virtually zero extra clarity, while also offering a wholly unnecessary opportunity to confuse the reader with any of the locations (or indeed beverages) called Malibu. As the press didn't really settle on a catchy name for this incident beyond "the Emiliano Sala plane crash" or variants thereof, I think that disambiguating it via the well-known location of it is vastly preferable to including the confusingly-named plane model. ~ mazca talk 15:35, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Not sure that article renames should be based on the fact that a few Americans might be confused. Malibu is the type of aircraft and leave out part of the name will confuse the rest of the world who know the aircraft as the Piper Malibu. A lot of aircraft are named after places should we rename them as to not confuse. I am not opposed to a rename just object to removing the name of the aircraft nad the "Americans would be confused" reasoning behind it. MilborneOne (talk) 22:17, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
It's not just "a few Americans": I'd argue that more readers worldwide have heard of Malibu, California (considering all the films it's featured in) than those who know what a Piper Malibu is. "The rest of the world who know the aircraft as the Piper Malibu" are probably just a minority of aviation nerds like us. --Deeday-UK (talk) 22:59, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Precisely; this is not an American issue - I am not American; I've never been to Malibu, California, and honestly none of the myriad things on Malibu (disambiguation) are all that close to my heart. It's just a genuinely terrible piece of disambiguation in the article title - almost nobody is going to, after remembering this is a PA-46 crash, disambiguate it by the fact that it's a PA-46 Malibu. I'd think about the month it was in, or the place it happened, or the people on board, well before I started specifying based on the plane model which is itself somewhat ambiguous because there are multiple PA-46 models that contain "Malibu". It just feels like producing a wilfully confusing article title for literally no purpose other than a highly debatable adherence to an obscure aviation project guideline. ~ mazca talk 22:24, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support, Mazca already said it better than I was going to. I myself was confused about the location when I first saw the article, thinking it was in Malibu, California. (I did not, however, think it was a flying bottle of rum). RecycledPixels (talk) 16:31, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support, per RecycledPixels. I had exactly the same thought about Malibu, California. bd2412 T 17:41, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Post mortem photosEdit

In the news today: [1][2] The Worcester News source gives a clear explanation of how the images were leaked.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 11:29, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Return to "2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash" page.