Talk:1958 Tybee Island mid-air collision/Archive 1

Archive 1

Where are the other 10?

It is said in the article that there are 11 missing north american nuclear weapons. Where are they now?

See List of nuclear accidents Ydorb 23:39, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

According to List of military nuclear accidents, there are four bombs that were never located. Any information to the contrary should be added there. Pjbflynn 04:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Quotes in the article

Does the list of quotes belong in WikiQuote? Ebeisher 04:18, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

there are way too many quotes on that list. most of them are pretty obscure.--Alhutch 06:15, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the quotes add to the article --giving a cross-section of the politics involved without editorializing or original research: you can't get a better description of such things than a person's words. (on a total side note: its somewhat amazing that this is the third comment in three years --I guess I'll check back in 2007...) --A Good Anon 03:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the quotes bring much to the article, especially not such a long list. Pjbflynn 04:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Quotes removed

I removed the entire quotes section because:

1. Very frankly, quotes without context like these are difficult to understand (When did they say it, and why? We don't know!), and
2. They are more effective when worked into the article as prose that summarises the various parties' points of view, rather than a list.
3. This is not a movie, in which quotes from characters would be more appropriate;
4. Lastly, the section is totally unsourced.

Pegasus «C¦T» 07:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Article Discrepancy

The "Potential Threat" section contains this sentence:

"The bomber pilot maintains that the weapon did have the nuclear capsule when he took off."

However, the quotations section attributes this quote to the pilot:

"Derek Duke just doesn't know what he's talking about. I keep telling him he's wrong. The paper says no [plutonium] capsule on board. I think I know what I signed for."

These contradict each other. Which is it? -Sarfa (talk) 18:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Why search for it when it was disarmed? Why search with a Geiger Counter, when the warhead was replaced with lead? 24.96.44.208 (talk) 15:41, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The core was not present, but the case of the bomb had Highly Enriched Uranium. Paul Studier (talk) 21:49, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

James Bond Influence?

Was this by chance the influence for Ian Fleming's "Thunderball" story? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.171.7 (talk) 10:31, 5 February 2009 (UTC) This is a very interesting story and i would like to be the one to find the bomb so that i could make the government pay me for it.

WTF??

Why in the world train with a workable bomb (loaded or not)? As we've seen, there will always be a measurable risk of accident, with the possibility of a source of design information landing in the wrong hands being not the least of the potential consequences.

Why not, for instance, simulate with a mass dummy?

--Philopedia (talk) 12:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the idea is to keep as many of the bombs airborne as possible because they will be safer in a nuclear surprise attack than on the ground. After the attack, the planes can land and refuel and take off for the USSR without having to load the bombs. Paul Studier (talk) 15:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

That's a pretty good argument for hitting them (the Ruskies) with a planned first strike. If we went all out, we'd have a really good chance of catching them with their drawers down. With our second strike ready before they even completed their first strike we would therefore have massive advantage and clearly prevail. — B. T. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.212.102.139 (talk) 02:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the above poster was referring to Dr Strangelove —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.253.74 (talk) 21:10, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Mass conversion

The content page cites the mass of the bomb as 7600 pounds in more than one place, but the mass in kilos is reported variously as 3400 and 3500 kg. Even with ample rounding it cannot be both! The true mass would be 3447.302012 kg, according to the conversion factor of the avoirdupois pound to the kilo. Of course, it would be ridiculous to use anything more accurate than perhaps 3 significant figures (ie. 3480 kg) but only if the mass is truly 7600 lbs. I have therefore changed the kilo values to 3480. If someone subsequently finds that the mass is nto quite 7600 lbs, please modify the kg values. Careful With That Axe, Eugene ^Hello... 12:04, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, that didn't work. One of the values was generated on the page by a conversion tool - I have simply duplicated this to give the same value in both instances (3400 kgs). Careful With That Axe, Eugene ^Hello... 12:12, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated conjecture

"The bomb's probably there, the Air Force just released a fake "report" because they wouldn't spend the money or risk public knowledge of its location. Due to the high radiation nobody is likely to ever discover otherwise."

This language is clearly nothing more than a user's personal opinion, and the article cited for it says nothing about the "Tybee Bomb", it's possible location, or the presence of a nuclear core. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.96.126 (talk) 17:34, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Serial

Does anyone know the serial of the aircraft involved. Can't add this one to the List of aircraft by tail number without it. Mjroots (talk) 11:54, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was procedural close. Moved by Vegaswikian.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:48, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

---

1958 Tybee Island B-47 crash → 1958 Tybee Island mid-air collision –The B-47 landed. Therefore it is mischaracterized as a crash. Also, it involved more than the B-47, making the current title somewhat POV. --Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 11:34, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Support for reasons above. Socrates2008 (Talk) 11:40, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hot -or- Not

What's the radioactive material they're talking about? Tritium (which would be mostly gone by now anyway), or maybe a uranium jacket (which wouldn't be)? Granted, the answer to that question is probably classified... --24.147.149.53 02:08, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I would not be surprised if that weapon had the capsule in it. Recently a retired Air Force officer trailed a geiger counter in tow of his boat and triangulated the position of the nuke. Can somebody in the USAF please dig that goddamned thing up and dispose of it properly? 24.44.68.183 (talk) 04:51, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Although the plutonium pit is alleged to have been removed, it is unclear to me whether the "spark plug" has been removed. This could be plutonium or enriched uranium, and thus a risk for proliferation. See Nuclear_weapon_design and Nuclear Weapon Archive from Carey Sublette. pstudier 02:45, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

According to this page, the Mk 15 (used in Castle Nectar), this particular design of bomb had a casing (tamper?) of enriched uranium (to what degree?) rather than depleted uranium and is a hybrid between a fusion and a boosted fission weapon and used both lithium and tritium as a fusion fuel (I know the tritium would be gone by now, don't know about the lithium). Anyway the concerns over using it to make a dirty bomb sound somewhat unfounded -- there are plenty easier and nastier ways to make a dirty bomb than using somewhat enriched uranium, but that's just my interpretation of things. --Fastfission 16:28, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Interesting! [1] says that the casing is HEU (highly enriched uranium), in which case it should be recovered or guarded forever. pstudier 17:02, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The bomb has highly enriched uranium according to http://www.charleston.net/stories/091604/sta_16bomb.shtml. pstudier 23:37, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC) This is a very interesting story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.103.158 (talk) 21:47, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

other articles

The Wassaw Sound article is almost entirely about this 1958 incident, including some information which is different and/or additional to that included in this main article. Ideally, someone impartial should consolidate the two, including (I'd think) all the information in this article, then a summary in that one. (I'd also think it appropriate to include locality specific info in that article.)

I hesitate to do this myself, because I don't know enough about the incident (from reliable external sources) to decide which sentences have the most objective facts or more accurate implications.

- Zulu Kane (talk) 18:29, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The Later years section of the B-47 Startojet article contains slightly different or additional information (and references) from this article. Wouldn't it be a good idea to consolidate that with this?

- Zulu Kane (talk) 20:29, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Air Force Search & Recovery Assessment of the 1958 Savannah, GA B-47 Accident

This is a fascinating document. If you are interested in the subject I highly recommend reading it. [2]

Robartin 14:39, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

Jensenr629 (talk) 02:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The link from 2004 for the PDF is (not surprisingly) stale.

Here is a current, "live" link:

Air Force Search & Recovery Assessment of the 1958 Savannah, GA B-47 Accident AF Nuclear Weapons And Counterproliferation Agency 12 April, 2001

Jensenr629 (talk) 02:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Report

The Report was supposed to be released in mid april. It's now May, does anyone have a link, has it been released?

I track this story with a Yahoo news alert, and I haven't heard a thing. pstudier 20:25, 2005 May 3 (UTC)

Jensenr629 (talk) 02:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The link from 2004 for the PDF is (not surprisingly) stale.

Here is a current, "live" link:

Air Force Search & Recovery Assessment of the 1958 Savannah, GA B-47 Accident AF Nuclear Weapons And Counterproliferation Agency 12 April, 2001

Jensenr629 (talk) 02:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/09/13/lost.bomb/
  • In 1958 Tybee Island B-47 crash on 2011-05-25 03:38:06, 404 Not Found
  • In 1958 Tybee Island B-47 crash on 2011-06-04 18:32:48, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 18:33, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

---

As of today, the CNN.COM link is "404 Not Found,"

but the 1958 Tybee Island B-47 crash redirects to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Tybee_Island_mid-air_collision.

--Jensenr629 (talk) 03:14, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Dead link 2

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.savannahmorningnews.com/stories/091404/2441929.shtml
  • In 1958 Tybee Island B-47 crash on 2011-05-25 03:38:15, Socket Error: 'A connection attempt failed because the connected party did not properly respond after a period of time, or established connection failed because connected host has failed to respond'
  • In 1958 Tybee Island B-47 crash on 2011-06-04 18:34:20, Socket Error: 'A connection attempt failed because the connected party did not properly respond after a period of time, or established connection failed because connected host has failed to respond'

--JeffGBot (talk) 18:35, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

---

As of today, the http://www.savannahmorningnews.com/stories/091404/2441929.shtml story can be found at

http://savannahnow.com/stories/091404/2441929.shtml.

(Apparently, they changed their name, but forgot to redirect people to the new location.)

The 1958 Tybee Island B-47 crash redirects to 1958_Tybee_Island_mid-air_collision.

--Jensenr629 (talk) 03:32, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Possible recovery

H-Bomb found off Savannah, GA http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/georgia-amateur-divers-find-long-lost-nuclear-warhead/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.226.140 (talk) 20:32, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that too, and rushed to enter it, but then had second thoughts... Is that a spoof site of some sort? I didn't find anything about it elsewhere, and from the picture, it doesn't look like the pics of the bomb from other places. Kjetil Kjernsmo (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 08:42, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

It's a fake news site that plays satire straight, but it's not obvious to most people because the stories are entirely possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brokenscope (talk • contribs) 17:17, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

@Kjetil: This [3] gives an interesting analysis of the whole hoax. (pre-dating its inclusion on this page) Including the reporters background, where the photos came from, what they really showed, and the real names of the (innocent) people who supposedly found the bomb. The original story is still up! I see it was re-added, then removed, ≈3 times after you put it in! - 220 of ^Borg 09:01, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

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Disabled

I believe the debate over whether the bomb was functional or not is caused by the fact that while in flight, the plutonium core of the bomb was not installed, making it impossible for the bomb to detonate. It was not inserted until war has been declared and the bomber is almost over the target. This is a safety precaution, for logical reasons. It is accurate to call it a functional weapon, only that it was not assembled fully, and thus could not operate. The possibility of the core being fitted is slim, as far as I know. Because accidents just like this are always a possibility. AnnaGoFast (talk) 23:30, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

What was the point of dumping the bomb in the first place?

If it lacked the core, there was no risk of explosion in any event. 24.214.230.66 (talk) 17:53, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

The plane was damaged and barely airworthy. It was dumped partially to make the landing safer. Even without the core, it could have detonated the high explosive and scattered the enriched uranium and also the plutonium core if the core was present. Paul Studier (talk) 22:05, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

No, that's not technically possible, because of various built-in safeguards. HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:57, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Even the conventional explosion without any radiation, wouldn't have helped the crew's chances if the a/c crashed while making an emergency landing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.61.139 (talk) 19:15, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Even with various safeguards, it's possible for high explosive to detonate when handled roughly, or exposed to fire, such as from burning jet fuel. I just finished reading several accounts on other pages of nuclear bomb's conventional explosives detonating after hitting the ground during accidental jettisonings. Also, I'm pretty sure the main "safeguards" you mention are only the make sure the nuclear component doesn't go critical, in spite of what else happens, i.e. to make sure that even if the explosives are accidentally detonated, it won't cause a full explosion. AnnaGoFast (talk) 23:48, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

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Correct Military designation

In the section "Midair Collision", Howard Richardson has been mentioned as a Major & as a Colonel. Is there anyway to verify his correct military designation ?? Superfast1111 (talk) 04:45, 5 February 2019 (UTC)