Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2021 December 8

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December 8

British poster design/content, 1918 versus 1940

This blog page reproduces a poster advertising "the greatest diving act in the world--thrill of a lifetime". The blog writer comments: "There is no date"; however, there is most of one: "Saturday, May 18th". This web page tells us that for the first half of the 20th century, 18 May was a Saturday in years 01, 07, 12, 18, 29, 35, 40, 46. The poster talks of "the Lads" as being "at the Front" (not as having returned from there). So Blighty was at war, and the options are thus limited to 1918 and 1940. There was plenty of action along the western front in May 1918. As for 1940, only really from 10 May, if I understand this article correctly. So this makes me pretty sure that this poster is from 1918. Additionally, both the graphic design (if it can be called that) and the language strongly suggest to me not 1940 but 1918 -- however, I can't put my finger on why. Educated comments? -- Hoary (talk) 01:53, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

"As performed before the King of Denmark", hm, in 1940 he was 69 years old and so maybe not going to such shows.

The typefaces used all smell of the 19c, except that of SPECTACULAR DIVES which says Jazz Age to me but could of course be earlier. (If I were less busy tonight I'd look for a match in Dan X. Solo's type collections for Dover Publications.) —Tamfang (talk) 02:56, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Despite the old-fashioned poster style of using EVERY typeface at every size, I'm going to argue for 1940, because, for one thing, Easter 1940 was the 24th of March as opposed to the 31st in 1918, and you have to add 50 days to get to Whit Monday, which gives ... well for 1918 you skip 30 to get past April, so that takes us to May 20th: so this event can't start on Whit Monday 1918 and end Saturday May 18th without time flowing in reverse (which would make high dive acts even more spectacular). Whereas if Easter is on the 24th that sets the show up neatly to last for six days, from Monday 13th to Saturday 18th. For another thing, Roll Out the Barrel was a popular song in 1939.  Card Zero  (talk) 03:27, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Why did they use EVERY typeface at every size in all styles AS IF TO SHOW OFF just how much they can SWITCH STYLES? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 06:35, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I can't give a referenced answer, but when I was studying printing in the 1980s I read that when, back in the day, printers were asked to create such posters and playbills without specific graphic design instructions from the client, they would use as many typefaces as possible in order to advertise their capabilities; for certain types of client, such as theatres and circuses, this then became the accepted fashion. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.90.66 (talk) 06:51, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I also wonder how likely it was that Southport would have 4 digit telephone numbers in 1918 from my read of History of telephone numbers in the United Kingdom. Nil Einne (talk) 04:19, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

With all that was going on in Europe in May 1940 I don't think the Royalty of Denmark, Sweden and Holland would have been gathered to watch diving horses. The article Diving horse mentions that it was an activity of the 1880s so I'm guessing a look at this table List_of_wars:_1800–1899#1880–1889 might lead you in the right direction. I could be wrong of course, but, I am just having a hard time seeing horses that could be used for farming or the war effort taking part in that outdated entertainment. MarnetteD|Talk 05:18, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

My mistake - I hadn't read the blog page I'd only looked at the poster and assumed it was referring to horse diving. It might be worth searching for human diving into flames and such as an activity. It seems to be in the same realm as flag pole sitting. One other thought is that there doesn't necessarily have to have been an active war going on. The "Mayor's War Comfort Fund" might have been a peace time charity. It will be interesting to see what others come up with. MarnetteD|Talk 05:26, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

So I typed "Lord Mayor's Comfort Fund" into google and am getting a number of hits for Sydney and New South Wales rather than the UK. Maybe someone else can find info for the Merseyside Southport. MarnetteD|Talk 05:34, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

One last bit of guesswork before I head off to saw logs. Several of the pictures on the blog above and below the poster are of events in the mid thirties and that the Comfort Fund may have been raising revenue for peace time purposes as I mentioned earlier. MarnetteD|Talk 05:42, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

But the correct name as on the poster is "The Mayor's War Comforts Fund". (Not Lord Mayor, and yes War.) --184.144.99.241 (talk) 07:39, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Most British mayors in both wars would have had some sort of comforts fund. DuncanHill (talk) 01:49, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

"Well, Card Zero," I was about to say, "the song 'Roll out the barrel' might have been a hit in '39, but surely it would have been a common turn of phrase in the previous years." But I thought I'd better look, and Google Ngram Viewer suggests that I'm wrong. Good observation there! -- Hoary (talk) 09:06, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I never imagined that this little question would arouse such interest. I'm flattered (I think). I'd rather hoped that somebody would bring up ingredients that I hadn't noticed, and you have. For now, some comments. Tamfang, I believe that the poster implies that the King of Denmark (and the Dutch and Swedish royals) would have seen the show at some previous time, not that they were planning to attend on Whit Monday/Tuesday. Card Zero, I read or misread the poster as saying that there'd be one kind of show on Whit Monday/Tuesday; and another kind every night at 9 p.m. -- and I don't suppose that these days would have overlapped, as it would be odd for the former to start as late as 20:30 and the latter to start as late as 21:00 as little as half an hour later on the same day. MarnetteD, the "human diving into flames and such as an activity" could well have been performed here by Bert Powsey (the subject of the blog page), but another oddity to me is the non-mention on the poster of "THE CELEBRATED [name]", or similar for whoever was the star of the show: it's almost as if Bert wasn't quite sure at the time the poster was ordered if perhaps he had the flu coming on, whereupon his son Herbert, daughter Gladys, or somebody else might do the honours in his place. I did find solid (if very scant) evidence for the Southport War Comforts Committee: here. (Incidentally, I learn from this artefact that the "Great War" ended in 1919. Hmm.) MarnetteD, the poster does imply to me that "the Lads" were at the front at the time. -- Hoary (talk) 07:29, 8 December 2021 (UTC) [edited Hoary (talk) 01:37, 9 December 2021 (UTC)]

Well, it did end in 1919.

A poster for a variety show dated "ca. 1940", also from Visiter Printing Works, Southport, seen in this catalogue as nr. 173, has a very different typographical style.  --Lambiam 08:25, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Blimey, Guv; that's some weapons-grade exhibit hunting. I'm impressed. (And yes, you're right about the treaty of Versailles.) -- Hoary (talk) 08:41, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

"Pigeons" there is in the same face as "Spectacular Dives 70-ft". Of course, they could just be using the same sorts for 20+ years. Everything's a bit circumstantial.  Card Zero  (talk) 12:18, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

One more clue; at the foot of the poster it says; "Help the Lads at the Front and Roll out the Barrel". Our Beer Barrel Polka article says that the lyrics to the song were written in Czech in 1934 and later translated into English becoming a hit record in 1939. It was certainly popular with the British Expeditionary Force in 1940, witnesses recall survivors from RMS Lancastria singing the song while still in the water. [1] I can't find any reference to the phrase predating the song. (Actually rolling a barrel of English ale would stir-up the sediment and make it undrinkable for 24 hours while it settled. [2]) Alansplodge (talk) 12:47, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

And another one; it seems that the Southport sea bathing lake was new in 1928. Alansplodge (talk) 13:01, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

One more; Whitsun was a moveable feast; Whit Monday was on 20 May in 1918 [3] but was on 13 May in 1940. [4] If the event included Whit Monday and Tuesday but finished on Saturday 18 May (if I'm reading it correctly) it would seem to point to 1940 rather than 1918. D'oh! I've just seen that Card Zero made the same points above. Apologies. Alansplodge (talk) 13:14, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Alansplodge, the "sea water bathing lake" is described as new in 1928 (caption to photo 9). But I also see swimmers at "Southport baths" in a photo dated 1927 (it's photo 11). The poster says "Near Swimming Baths"; for all I know, the "lake" may have supplanted a smaller predecessor and wouldn't itself have been called "baths". In the meantime, thank you for the link: it has delightful photographs, none more so than number 4 (from 1966), of an "English Rose contest heat", showing some spectacular hair-dos. -- Hoary (talk) 01:37, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

• Darn it, I missed WHIT MONDAY entirely, that seems conclusive. — I agree that the royals were unlikely to attend this show, but infer that they had seen it before the war, and I assume the same show had not been running for many years, hence the relevance of age. —Tamfang (talk) 18:53, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Questions like this are fascinating Hoary and get the history detective in many of us revved up :-) Looks like all my guesses were %100 wrong - not the first time in my life for that :-) I am glad so many other editors were able to track down the info to help explain things. Good work. Congrats and regards to all. MarnetteD|Talk 00:52, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

MarnetteD, even wrong guesses, if thoughtful, may spur people on to better guesses; so thank you for your wrong guesses too. -- Hoary (talk) 01:37, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

• The whole "as performed before" bit is not to be taken entirely seriously, showmen always made that sort of claim. DuncanHill (talk) 01:48, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Shape description

Course of a river

How to succinctly but evocatively describe the somewhat peculiar shape of the course of the river seen in the accompanying map? Can we say it resembles the silhouette of a terrier sitting upright, leaning right?  --Lambiam 09:52, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I suppose that's a good start except that most terriers don't have big pointy ears, and presumably it's leaning to the north-east rather than to (whose?) right. It looks more like the outline of the Red Sea to me.....--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:19, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Or maybe a cat? [5] Alansplodge (talk) 13:33, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

One would say this is a highly sinuous river. --Jayron32 12:10, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

M —Tamfang (talk) 18:57, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

It looks more like the profile of a cat sitting up. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:36, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Shark opening its mouth. (Land shark! WP:WHAAOE.) --47.155.96.47 (talk) 08:38, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Or a salmon. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:17, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

I think it looks like pareidolia. --Jayron32 12:07, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

If you look in the dictionary under pareidolia, you'll find a picture of literally anything. —Tamfang (talk) 03:16, 12 December 2021 (UTC)