Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2014 January 1

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January 1

Carroll Hall Shelby's Can-Am Racer

File:PX2 Rt side.jpg

Hello,

I was looking for information on the Shelby CAN-AM racers designed by David Bruns, Peter Brock and ol Shel himself in 1989. Do you know why these cars are nearly non-existent when talk of Mr. Shelby's accomplishments are listed?

I see even Wiki does not acknowledge the existence of the cars.

There are generally two reasons why Wikipedia (which is the name of this particular one of the thousands and thousands of wikis on the net) does not cover a subject. Either because the subject has not already been written about in multiple reliable sources (such as major newspapers and magazines, books issued by reputable publishers etc) or because nobody has happened to write an article yet. If you think we cover these cars, and you can find suitable sources to reference, you are very welcome either to insert something about them into the article Carroll Shelby, or to start a new article, whichever seems more appropriate. Please read Your first article if you would like to have a go. --ColinFine (talk) 00:04, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Other relevant articles may be Swift Engineering (founded by David Bruns); Peter Brock; and possibly Can-Am 79.130.118.66 (talk) 00:54, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

SCCA National Championship Runoffs now mentions that the Runoffs dispayed a prototype Shelby Can Am race car at Road Atlanta in October 1989. The source did not mention anything about Bruns or Brock. This November 1989 source mentions that Shelby had a "contract with the SCCA to build 200 of the new spec-class Shelby Can-Am sports racers for the 1990 season." -- Jreferee (talk) 02:38, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

How do you console strangers?

use common sense, spiritual advisors, and internet fora
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Every time I get in a conversation with someone and they eventually reach the point of telling me about their woes, I'm not sure what to do. When someone tells me they have no money, got fired, or that nobody loves them, what should my response be? "You have it better than many others" would probably only engender self-loathing, "I'm sorry" etc sounds empty and throwaway, trying to find a common ground by telling them your problems might look like I'm trying to one-up them, and ultimately, none of it helps them. I really feel sad when I can't help somebody in the brief moment our lives intersected. A lot of this applies to non-strangers, but usually you have something to work off if you know the person outside of the conversation.--Ye Olde Luke (talk) 05:46, 1 January 2014 (UTC) Just say the first thing you think. One conversation I had with a random guy in a pub was quite interesting. He said, "Sir, you at the bar, what do you think? My priest said to me that death is indefinite." And my reply was, "No, sir, death is definite." And he said, "No, you don't seem to understand. Death is indefinite." And I replied, "No, sir, it is you who do not understand. Death is definite." and suddenly a look of overwhelming enlightenment came over his face. We chatted for a while after that. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:00, 1 January 2014 (UTC) Start singing Always Look on the Bright Side of Life. Hack (talk) 07:16, 1 January 2014 (UTC) I'd go with telling them about a similar experience you had and how you got through it. For example, if somebody dear to them has died, tell them about somebody close to you who died, and how you got over it. StuRat (talk) 08:13, 1 January 2014 (UTC) Can we please get the new year off to a good start, folks? This is a reference desk, not a "Free Personal Advice for All Comers" desk, and not all questions someone might conceivably have are suited to what we do here. This question is a good example of something that's probably outside our purview. Giving personal opinions based on what respondents might do in such a situation has absolutely nothing to do with providing any sort of reference. If we were a bricks and mortar library reference desk and someone came along and asked this question, there's no way we'd suddenly put a "Free Personal Advice for All Comers" hat on and opine away. Rather, we'd politely suggest the person ask a parent or friend, or perhaps suggest a good book on communication. If one of us felt compelled to offer some personal advice, we'd take the person aside and do it privately, not while wearing our Reference Desk Librarian hat. We can organise private advice here, it's easy (user talk pages, e-mails ...). Let's please keep these lines of communication clear of each other; that's easy too. Happy New Year, all. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 10:28, 1 January 2014 (UTC) Oh, who has just woken up from a night on the tipple for New Year, I wonder? I won't argue with you, Jack (as I never do, except when I do), but this is the season of goodwill. If someone is troubled, we should offer some help, even if we cannot find reliable references (like Dr. Online, or Psychogist Online, or whatever other 'make me money for being unable to do my job and therefore making a website' crap there is out there. And HNY 2 U 2! I hope it's a good one for you. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC) Gee, if Jack's just woken up from his New Year celebrations, he's done well. The New Year was nearly 22 hours ago where he lives. HiLo48 (talk) 10:44, 1 January 2014 (UTC) There was a recent discussion on one of the ref desks about "sympathy". The response could depend on how much sympathy one has, combined with one's sense of whether the stranger is truly seeking spiritual help vs. just "selling" something. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:49, 1 January 2014 (UTC) Goodwill should know no season, Kage. Nor should politeness or friendliness or civility or sympathy or empathy or compassion etc. But that is beside the point of the matter of principle I'm addressing here. We have a certain role. Its borders are a little fuzzy, I grant you, but we are nothing like a Personal Advice column and we should not operate as if we were. It only encourages the natives. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 10:54, 1 January 2014 (UTC) What would be a good source or sources which might at least give the OP some ideas on how to answer his own question? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:43, 1 January 2014 (UTC) Depending on the place of residence (country / city), a person in difficulties may have access to free (or, at least, low cost) advice dealing with legal / financial difficulties, job-opportunities, psychological problems and similar common crises known to most of us. For those in need there may be a place to get a dinner or shelter for a short while. Such “agencies” commonly are administered by the government, by churches or by professional / community groups. Bear in mind that I am speaking from a European point of view. Life seems more brutal elsewhere. Listening to a fellow human being is the first step in any communication. Suggestions on your own response, as Jack points out above, are “personal advice” and outside our expertise. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:49, 1 January 2014 (UTC) Closing this request for advice based on above comments and given the lack of references and links in response. μηδείς (talk) 18:31, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Is a hamburger a sandwich?

There are very many articles in Wikipedia that refer to hamburgers as "sandwiches". Why is this? "Hamburger" (as in food, not as in citizen of Hamburg) is a perfectly usable term for a food item made of ground beef, vegetables and sauces wrapped in a soft wheat bun. In my opinion, a "sandwich" is more like sliced bread (not a bun), buttered, and optionally covered with meat, fish, and/or vegetable toppings, but not ground beef. Is a hamburger a sandwich? In my opinion, it isn't. But what is the accepted definition? To me, referring to hamburgers as "sandwiches" seems like an euphemism, or an attempt to avoid repeating words. In my opinion, this should be avoided. JIP | Talk 21:52, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Our article sandwiches has photos of a filled baguette and a standard hamburger. The kebab article has a photo of a kebab sandwich (a bun filled with sliced lamb / other grilled meat and garnished with salad and some sauce). I assume it may be a matter of linguistics, or possibly a matter of US vs UK English. I would call neither of those three a sandwich, but (like you) I am not a native speaker and may be wrong. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:10, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

As a native speaker of American English but not a linguistic expert, I'd say a hamburger is a sandwich (which I'd define as meat, veggie, and/or condiments between two bread items), and (ham)burger is a subcategory within the larger sandwich category, much as I'd consider subs and the like. - Purplewowies (talk) 22:22, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

"Sandwich" is definitely one of those words whose definition and usage varies considerably around the world. All my fairly long life in Australia it has only ever meant some sort of filling between two slices of bread. The filling could be almost anything, although sliced cooked meat, tomato, salad, peanut butter, and Vegemite would be some of the more common, often in combination. It never involved a bun. That had other names. I learnt by travelling there that Americans often don't include the two slices, just one, and do include buns in their definition. HiLo48 (talk) 23:12, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to a lengthy stay in Australia I experienced the culinary delights of a baked bean sandwich. It must have been the invention of a sadistic and failed haute cuisine chef with an ear for atonal flatulence.:o) --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:35, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm pleased to hear you gave it a go! HiLo48 (talk) 06:49, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I think this is a American/British English difference. A hamburger is not a sandwich in British English. The former become popular in the UK through fast food chains fof US origin, I think. Matt's talk 06:22, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

One type of ground-beef-in-bread is a steak sandwich, for example. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:07, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah, another difference. A steak sandwich in Australia involves a thin piece of steak. Not always the finest cut, but still a solid piece of meat. HiLo48 (talk) 06:49, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

You could always argue that a hamburger is a hamburg steak sandwich. And HiLo48 is right - given the choice between a steak sandwich and a snag in a slice of wonder white with a dollop of dead horse, I'd take the snag - you're less likely to be still chewing on it an hour later. --Shirt58 (talk) 08:37, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm guessing a sausage in a single slice of bread isn't a sandwich. Hack (talk) 09:06, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Heck no. Though when I have left over sausages from a BBQ at home, a sausage sandwich (that's sliced sausage between TWO slices of bread) is a good lunch option the next day. Plenty of sauce needed too of course. HiLo48 (talk) 09:28, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I beg to differ. The classic sandwich saucisse australien consists of a freshly immolated sausage, delicately anointed with tomato sauce, and folded lovingly and diagonally within in a single slice of white bread. I've looked this up in my Larousse Gastronomique and, erm, it doesn't seem to be there. There's no entry for "sausage sizzle" either. Must be an outdated edition. --Shirt58 (talk) 12:12, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Which is an interesting point. Here in NZ, I'm not sure how many people would call what you obtain from a sausage sizzle a sandwich, even if you get another slice of bread for some reason. Try these searches for example [1] or [2], most simple refer to sausage sizzle, sausages (which in a sausage sizzle implies you also get the bread) and other sandwiches.

It seems this usage isn't unheard of in Australia however even if not one used [3] [4] [5] [6]. This isn't as weird as the antigravity or magnetic chicken you get there but still an interesting difference.

However another interesting thing, here in NZ, you don't need generally two slices of bread for a sandwich. If you have one slice of bread, simply cut it in half, or even just fold it in half and you have a sandwich. Okay you can argue over whether you have a sandwich or half a sandwich, but that will depend on context, person and other factors enough that it's not worth debating. HiLo48's message below of 'two pieces' was somewhat ambigious (I realised this upon rereading), but according to the comment above, other than I guess the sausage sizzle, you do need two slices of bread in Australia.

Or is this a different meaning of sliced bread? Here in NZ, you might call a slice of bread cut in to two, two pieces. I don't think you'd normally call it a two slices of bread though. In any case, this doesn't help with the folded in half bit and if that is the point of distinction, it's interesting that cutting the bread makes so much difference in Australia so that one is a sandwich, and one is not.

Nil Einne (talk) 14:39, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Googling McDonald's and Burger King's menus, McD's calls it "hamburgers and sandwiches", while BK uses the term "sandwich" for their burgers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:16, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

From personal experience, many other restaurants (particularly ones that make non-burger sandwich types) also usually have them in a general sandwich category unless they have enough burgers for a separate burger category. For instance, Steak and Shake has separate burger and sandwich categories (though the thing I shall never understand is their sorting of chicken fingers as a sandwich). - Purplewowies (talk) 00:32, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Toast sandwich proves you don't really need much in between the bread. Rmhermen (talk) 06:04, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Subway's "Sandwich Artists" also suggest you don't need to skimp on the dough. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:17, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I was reading recently about the breadless sandwich. And also the foodless sandwich, which must be the culinary equivalent of John Cage's 4'33". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:17, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

About the burger/sandwich thing, it's worth noting that the thing covered in our 'chicken sandwich' article which includes stuff like a McChicken is from what I can tell (there's a fair amount of discussion of this on the talk page) not called a burger in the US and I think Canada. However it is commonly called a chicken burger in New Zealand, Australia, Malaysia and from what I can tell also the UK. As I remarked in our talk page, a chicken sandwich in NZ and I think Australia would likely imply some sort of chicken pieces on sliced bread perhaps with other filling and a chicken burger along with other burgers would not commonly be called a sandwich except perhaps in some fast food chain menus. Nil Einne (talk) 08:00, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

American English - I would expect a chicken burger, if it was a thing, to be a patty of ground chicken fried and shaped liked a hamburger. There exists a lambburger and a turkeyburger so I guess someone might use ground chicken this way but I don't know that I have ever had one. Rmhermen (talk) 17:30, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Let's get this 100% right. A chicken sandwich in Australia ALWAYS involves chicken pieces IN BETWEEN TWO PIECES OF sliced bread, not ON sliced bread. HiLo48 (talk) 08:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Unless it's one of those fancy "open sandwiches" they serve in over-priced food joints. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:19, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if there was confusion, but that's what I meant. I admit I should have been clearer about it being between the bread. But do you have some sort of antigravity you didn't tell the rest of the world about in Australia or magnetic chicken? Because here in NZ, by definition if the chicken is in between the bread, is must be on the bread. Okay it could be on the lettuce on the bread or on the sauce on the bread or whatever, but ultimately it's effectively on the bread so I make no apologies for that bit not being aware of the latest developments from Australia you didn't tell anyone about. Nil Einne (talk) 13:54, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

And then, of course, you have the classic Scandinavian variations on the open face sandwich, which tend to involve a single slice of bread upon and (often) around which are piled many tasty things, to the point where the bread can be virtually negligible to the production. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:27, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I was referring to above. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:38, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

US English speaker here (Detroit). I might look for burgers under the sandwich menu, but if I went over to someone's house for lunch and they said they were having sandwiches, I'd be rather surprised to see them serving burgers. So, while a burger is a type of sandwich, if there's no reason to refer to them in the broad category of sandwiches, we don't. StuRat (talk) 15:05, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

In the UK, a "sandwich" is never a burger unless you're stuck in BK or McD's. A sandwich is universally a cold meal with "something" between bread. Could be two or three slices (e.g. a club sandwich) but never a hamburger. That's a burger. Which is seldom made of ham. For an Wikipedia reference, you could read about the origins of the sandwich in the John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich article, allegedly a slice of meat between two slices of bread. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:38, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

It has to be cold ? How about a hot ham and cheese sandwich or an open-faced turkey and gravy sandwich ? (I'm guessing you somehow manage to call that last one "pudding", as every other food item seems to be called that there.) StuRat (talk) 23:34, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

It has to be cold. A hot sandwich is a "toastie" - a sandwich containing gravy wouldn't work, as the viscosity of British gravy isn't significantly greater than that of water. Tevildo (talk) 23:41, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

A sandwich (eg Vegemite and cheese) heated in a microwave oven (enough to melt the cheese) does not become toast - it does not become "browned by exposure to radiant heat" (or conducted heat by direct contact, as is the case with a sandwich toaster). Surely I'm not the only person (in Australia) to do that. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:39, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

A turkey open-faced sandwich has a slice of bread at the bottom, then a slice of hot turkey, and gravy drizzled over it so the bread becomes soggy. It's eaten with a fork. A similar concept is chipped beef on toast. StuRat (talk) 00:12, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Down here we call a toasted sandwich a "toasted sandwich". The default sandwich is cold, but toasted is a valid option. "Toastie" is obviously just a corruption of "toasted sandwich". It's still a type of sandwich. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:43, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Does the Reuben sandwich exist in Britain? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Only in specialist American-themed restaurants (such as this one. Jeez! Six quid for a sandwich! Although it contains far more meat than anything we'd instinctively describe as a sandwich, so the price isn't that unreasonable for a full meal...) Tevildo (talk) 23:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

But six quid for a sandwich is still better than sick squid for a sandwich. StuRat (talk) 00:06, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Awesome. That joke is definitely the catch of the day. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:55, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I had somewhere tucked away in the recesses of my mind the idea that "hamburger" was short for "Hamburger sandwich", as in a kind of sandwich notionally appertaining to Hamburg, whether or not it in fact resembles anything you'd have found in that city prior to the arrival of McDonalds. Is that not so? --Trovatore (talk) 01:45, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

You may find the etymology of "hamburger" interesting.[7] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:53, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

That's similar to how a pizza was briefly called a "pizza pie", as in the song That's Amore. StuRat (talk) 01:48, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I also remember the vendors at the ballparks: "Pizza pie here!" And in some pizza delivery franchises I think they're referred to simply as "pies" in the shop jargon. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:54, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Googling [pizza pie] shows it's still in pretty good use, though I think not so much as in the past. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:00, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• The question is about as tractable as asking whether something is a stone or a rock. People seem to forget words are contextual conceptual tools made by humans, and not reflections of Platonic Ideals. that being said, I am used to diners and mid-range restaurants in the US NE having separate Cold Sandwich, Hot Sandwich, and Hamburger sections on the menu. Unfortunately the menus I have looked at on line don't have the same layout as the actual menu you get in the restaurant. μηδείς (talk) 02:24, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• • It seems to be human nature to invent categories and then argue over which category a given object fits into. Never mind that this has no effect on the object. Such as recasting Pluto as a "dwarf planet" instead of a plain old "planet". Pluto did not change. Only the words changed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:16, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• • • What "sandwich" means matters if I'm ordering lunch. HiLo48 (talk) 04:50, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

The word I have trouble with is "entrée". I regularly get coupons that give me so much off of "an entrée", and yet the menu often has no section marked "entreés". So, I have to ask every time what is and isn't an entrée, and the waitress often must discuss it with the manager to figure it out. And, by the next time I go to the same restaurant, the definition may well have changed. StuRat (talk) 11:50, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Further complicating matters is that the term "entrée" is misused in [American] English. It's used to mean the main course, while in France [and apparently in Britain] it means the course just before the main course. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:22, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

It's not misused in British English. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:25, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

The particular issue I had was that they wouldn't accept a grilled chicken sandwich and fries as being an "entrée". I'm not sure why that wouldn't qualify, under the "main dish" definition. StuRat (talk) 14:01, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

May I ask which specific restaurant that was? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:46, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

That was Outback Steakhouse. Note that while they have an Australian theme, I don't think they are really Australian, so I don't expect Aussie English to play a role here. StuRat (talk) 15:29, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Aha. So they consider the "entrees" to be "the expensive stuff". I have likewise run into that in places. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:32, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Yea, it seems to be a scam. They send out coupons for like $5 off an entrée, which would be 50% off what everyone assumes to be an entrée, but turns out to be only 20% off the $25 steak and lobster dish they insist is their only entrée. I've resorted to calling them up before I decide if it's worth going in. StuRat (talk) 16:17, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• An entrée meal in America is usually some sort of meat served with soup and/or salad beforehand and a choice of "vegetables(s)" with the main plate. Perhaps the soup or salad was the original entrée, and Meat with entrée has become a meat entrée? In any case, a sandwich that comes with fries but no soup or salad would never be an entrée. μηδείς (talk) 18:28, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

• Must be different in New Jersey then, because here in Detroit "entrée" just means the main dish, whatever it is. I also don't find your definition online. StuRat (talk) 11:37, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Here's a verbatim search for "all entrees come with choice of soup or salad". But typically a burger will come with a pickle, coleslaw, and a side of fries. Of course there's not going to be any easy to find or at all official definition of this, since this is a matter of thousands of small businesses, not particle physics. μηδείς (talk) 17:09, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Know where online I could buy a faceted round-shaped Phantom_quartz pendant maybe in a grey or silver color?

Know where online I could buy a faceted round-shaped Phantom_quartz pendant maybe in a grey or silver color? Venustar84 (talk) 23:29, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

There are several on eBay.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 11:14, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Where can I find Sailor Moon episodes online in German with English Subtitles or buy it?

Where can I find Sailor Moon episodes online in German with English Subtitles or buy it? Venustar84 (talk) 23:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Venustar84 - You might try contacting Edel AG, which produced a German video series of "Sailor Moon" in October 1998. -- Jreferee (talk) 02:01, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Online dating

There's a dating site for farmers, FarmersOnly.com; there are quite a number of dating sites for military personnel, such as MilitarySingles.com; does anyone know whether there's a comparable site for STEM workers? Thanks in advance! 2601:9:3200:467:5C2C:6A76:7C96:7E06 (talk) 23:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

To clarify for anyone who may be able to help the OP, STEM fields is our relevant article. I don't know of any appropriate dating sites myself. Tevildo (talk) 00:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

There's a website called scientificsingles.com but I have no idea whether it's legit or not. RNealK (talk) 04:19, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

There's also www.sciconnect.com although it doesn't limit itself to those working in the field. Also probably some geek single sites cater to this market to some extent (I'm not saying that all those in STEM should be consider geeks and there are obviously plenty of geeks who are not involved in STEM) e.g. www.meetup.com/GeekChic/ Nil Einne (talk) 07:40, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

There are also sites that take part in Genetic matchmaking. This is not limited to people who work in STEM fields, but I'm willing to bet a disproportionate number of members do. Someguy1221 (talk) 12:09, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I haven't used it, but there's New Scientist Connect, which is legitimate.-gadfium 19:19, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone! 2601:9:3200:467:5C2C:6A76:7C96:7E06 (talk) 01:10, 3 January 2014 (UTC)