Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 January 7

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

January 7

Latin-based demonyms?

Why do some European cities still have demonyms that are based on Latin such as Mancunian, Neapolitan, Leopolitan, and Gaditano? StellarHalo (talk) 04:30, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Because it sounds learnèd, which is cool in some circles.  --Lambiam 09:10, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Because "Mancunian" is easier to say than "Manchesterer" (based on, for example, New Yorker). More seriously, English is not a prescribed language: for these constructs, there have been no alternatives which have become popular. For others, that's not the case: we don't have Lutetian, Londiniumite, Burdigalan, or (mostly) Olissiponense. Bazza (talk) 10:33, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

On the other hand, we have Colcestrian, which is a lot easier than Camulodunian. Alansplodge (talk) 18:42, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

There's also "Liverpudlian". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:51, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

There is indeed, but it's not Latin-based... --Wrongfilter (talk) 20:51, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

What about "Salopian"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:15, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Shropshire#Etymology: 'thought to derive from the Anglo-French "Salopesberia".' --Wrongfilter (talk) 21:21, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Note that a lot of these English demonyms have their origin in public schools or grammar schools emulating Old Etonians and Old Harrovians. Our Old Boys article notes "Old Novaportan" (from the grammar school at Newport, Shropshire) as an example of the use of Latinisation in this context, perhaps in an attempt to make the school sound more prestigious. Alansplodge (talk) 18:57, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

According to this, the term "Mancunian" only dates from the early 20th century. Although I can't find a direct link, we have an article called List of Old Mancunians, alumni of Manchester Grammar School (founded 1515), which hopefully tends to support my hypothesis above. Alansplodge (talk) 21:32, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

The OED has citations for "Mancunian", both as noun and adjective, from 1771. DuncanHill (talk) 23:10, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Ah yes DuncanHill, possibly this is it. Not supporting my claim, although the school still predates this usage by a couple of centuries. Alansplodge (talk) 18:13, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

To extend Alansplodge's thesis about public schools and nearby towns, Oxford University and Cambridge University share their respective Latinate demonyms — Oxonian and Cantabrigian — with the cities of Oxford and Cambridge. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:04, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Mutual intelligibility of some Oghuz Turkic languages

How mutually intelligible are Turkish, Azeri, Gagauz, and Turkmen? (Asking because Help:IPA/Turkish used to cover all four before it was split.) And how does the situation compare with the level of Spanish–Portuguese intelligibility? Double sharp (talk) 14:19, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Judging by Omniglot, Turkish and Azeri appear to be as close as German and Dutch (or Spanish and Portuguese), Gaugauz and Turkmen are more different. [1], [2], [3], [4]. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:29, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Turkish-speaking friends report that, apart from the occasional false friends, they had little trouble communicating with Azeri speakers in Azerbaijan. Many words are identical. I once managed to have a conversation in Turkish with a Turkmen speaker studying in Turkey who reported not having had much difficulty adapting to the linguistic differences. See also wikt:Appendix:Turkic Swadesh lists.  --Lambiam 22:04, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

The example of Spanish and Portuguese may not be as useful as you think, since it's somewhat notorious that Portuguese-speakers often find it easier to understand Spanish-speakers than the opposite situation. AnonMoos (talk) 00:29, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Sometimes these situations are due to familiarity, where speakers of the smaller language would be more likely to have at least a passive command of the larger than vice versa, but for Spanish and Portuguese, it's also due to Spanish' more conservative phonology. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:40, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks all. Yes, I did suspect that the situation might not be symmetrical, because Turkish is the biggest language among these four in terms of numbers of speakers. Considering some phonological differences in Turkmen, I also wouldn't be too surprised to hear that Turkmen speakers have an easier time understanding Turkish than Turkish speakers have understanding Turkmen. But I asked because I didn't know any of those languages (trying to self-learn some Turkish though in my spare time) and wanted some actual information and context. :) Double sharp (talk) 05:35, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Why was a year-old comment by me added to this section?? I didn't add it... AnonMoos (talk) 19:58, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

The comment to which this pertains has since been removed.  --Lambiam 12:43, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Extending the question (and inspired by a remark by Alexander Vovin about the Slavic languages): would a Turkish speaker with linguistic knowledge of the sound changes characteristic between the Turkic languages be able to extend the intelligibility to the entire Turkic family? Or are languages like Sakha or Chuvash too divergent for this? Double sharp (talk) 16:28, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

As even basic Swadesh words diverge wildly, it would appear that the mutual intelligibility would be next to none. It seems comparable to the mutual intelligibilty between German and Hindi or Finnish and Hungarian... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:17, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

I've known (Anatolian) Turks to say that they can communicate with Uzbeks and Kazakhs, and that they were surprised how well they could, but I don't know to what actual extent. And of course it's easier if you're both trying to meet in the middle than if you overhear a fluent conversation. — kwami (talk) 09:54, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Soner Çağaptay gave percentages on Twitter, assuming college-educated speakers. I imagine it would increase if one knew the sound changes involved, e.g. it seems from the Swadesh lists that Turkish initial y corresponds to Kazakh and Kyrgyz initial j. Double sharp (talk) 13:31, 13 January 2023 (UTC)