Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 September 8

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September 8

Petsuchos

In Age of Mythology, there is a mythical unit that represents the deity Sobek referred to as Petsuchos. According to the unit's infomation file, "Petsuchos" is supposed to be a Hellenistic transcription of an Egyptian word meaning "he who belongs to Suchos/Sobek". Now I've been trying to piece together the etymology for myself, but the closest I've managed to come up with is the mashup of ἕπετο (hépeto, derived from ἕπομαι (hépomai), using the meaning "I belong to, am inseparable from") with Σοῦχος (Soûkhos), which doesn't seem remotely natural, seeing how corrupted hépeto seems to be in order to approximate pet-, but then again, I barely know a single thing about Ancient Greek syntax (let alone Modern Greek syntax). Something that might be closer is πετάω (petáo, "to fly/throw"). The only mention of "Petsuchos" I could find on Wikipedia alone is that it is one of many localised dialect names of Sobek ("At Karanis, two forms of the god were worshipped: Pnepheros and Petsuchos. There, mummified crocodiles were employed as cult images of Petsuchos"). The other languages of the Sobek article mostly mention the names of some rulers who incorporated Sobek into their names (Sobekhotep ("Sobek is satisfied"), Sobekemsaf ("Sobek is our protection"), Neferusobek ("The beauty of Sobek"). Outside of that, not much luck, as any non-AoM website I can find keeps referring to the decorated crocodiles that live in Crocodilopolis as just "sacred crocodiles", "incarnates of Sobek", "embodiments of Sobek", "Sobek's children", or some other variation.

Any help would be appreciated. --72.234.12.37 (talk) 03:17, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

If this is indeed a Hellenistic transcription of an Egyptian word, it is pointless to look for Greek roots. Egyptian is an unrelated language. Egyptian pt, conventionally transcribed as pet, means "the sky, heavens", which is not what you are looking for if the information provided by the unit is correct. A hieroglyphic rendering of the name would settle this, but unfortunately the only known renderings are in the Greek alphabet (Πετσοῦχος or Πετεσοῦχος). Perhaps the prefix P3-tj of demotic P3-tj-Sbk referring to the same deity^[1] gave rise to the transcription Πετ(ε)-. In late Egyptian p3 or pꜣ is just a determiner, like English the, while tj means “you”, so this does not immediately bring us any further. However, pꜣwtj means “primaeval (god)”, which may be applicable to our divine crocodilian.  --Lambiam 07:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

This reference work may be relevant: [2] --Amble (talk) 23:39, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Ah, then the component -tj- or -dỉ- is rḏj, also seen in Wiktionary's pꜣ-dj-Bꜣstt, literally "the given of Bastet". We also see the (Late Egyptian) transcription -dj- here.  --Lambiam 10:30, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Apologies, I think I meant to say something similar when I typed "transcription", but I don't know how to describe exactly what (I might be thinking of transliteration). To be more clear, of course I know that Egyptian and Greek are unrelated, but I was intentionally looking through Greek words because I figured that "Petsuchos" is not exactly the Hellenistic rendering, that is just the Latinisation of said Greek rendering. So I'm trying to amateurishly reconstruct what the original Greek could've looked like, and then pick out the Egyptian from there. Like, having a view of how the Egyptian name possibly evolved into the Latinisation, based on the game's given information.

Basically I'm playing a little etymology game, using Apep/Apophis as an example: Latin Apophis, ← Ancient Greek Ἄποφις (Ápophis, influenced after ὄφις (óphis), ← Egyptian ꜥꜣpp (aapep, of course several pronunciations depending on time period and local dialect)

So for Petsuchos, I've got: Latin Petsuchos (Petsuchus?), ← ancient Greek ἕπετο??/Πετε? + Σοῦχος (pete- approximation + Soûkhos), ← Egyptian pt or p3-tj + sbk (petisobek)

Amble's link referring to Petesouchos and the similarity to that Bastet name might as well be the closest we're gonna get to a proper bridge between the Egyptian and the Latin. I just have some doubts its as simple as Πετεσοῦχος because I know that plenty of Egyptian names do not phonetically resemble their Greek or Roman names at all, or they barely do. --72.234.12.37 (talk) 23:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Tarmac scam

Hi, I've just finished an article on the tarmac scam or "tarmacking", a fraud method used quite widely in Europe, particularly by Irish traveller gangs, so I was wondering if there were any Wikipedia articles on the scam in other languages. I've got a list of names for the scam in Italian, French and German but haven't turned up Wikipedia articles in those languages-I don't suppose anyone can find any that should be linked to this one? Blythwood (talk) 23:38, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

In New England, these are called "Gypsy Paving" scams. See Here for examples of that usage. There's a particular well-known family in the area known for it, see here. They've been well known in this regard at least since I've been a kid back in the 1980s. --Jayron32 12:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Jayron32, excellent, thanks! I know traveller groups consider that word offensive so don't plan to put it in the lead of the article, but I've added a redirect and might mention it lower down. Blythwood (talk) 16:00, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm guessing Pikey paving pimps is also not on the cards either, then? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:14, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I do recognize its offensiveness, but it is the term d'art for the phenomenon, especially in parts of New England (Southern New Hampshire/Eastern Massachusetts) near where I grew up, even today. --Jayron32 16:15, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Today I learned that term is a French word. —Tamfang (talk) 00:21, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Jayron32, thanks again! It's hard to find information about this because of the number of alternative names, and because "tarmacking", one common term for it, is often the word for the legitimate activity. I was wondering if you knew of any good sources dating it back to the 1980s or even earlier in your area? I can find a British source from 1994 which writes about it as common knowledge and one reported court case from 1989 that covers a lot of jobs that must have happened over a reasonable period, but I can't find any earlier sources. Blythwood (talk) 04:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Newspapers.com is a good resource. Here is a bunch of articles from the 1980s on various paving scams. --Jayron32 12:16, 13 September 2021 (UTC)