Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 June 6

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June 6

Translation of 18th-century Hell Scroll inscription

I recently purchased an 18th-century Chinese hell scroll. I'm trying to translate the inscription to find the exact year. These are the characters that I recognize.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img922/3172/pvPmGC.png

天連庚長年吉月吉日

李?清伒春

My former art history professor tells me that 庚長 (gengchang) is the name of the year (I'm assuming according to the traditional lunar calendar). I thought 吉月吉日 meant "auspicious month and day", but it apparently means the "first day of the first month" in classical Chinese. I can't make out the first of the two smaller characters on the right. I know the bottom is 道, "to know" or "the way". I'm assuming this is the artist's name. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:30, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

The right-hand column seems to say 李槑清供奉 - "Offering by Li Meiqing". The left-hand column seems to be 天運庚辰年吉月吉日. "天運" looks like an epoch name but is not an official one - it's one that has been repeatedly used by various secret societies and rebel movements. 庚辰 is, as you supposed, a year reckoning. If this painting is from the 18th century, then it is 1760 (the previous one with that name was 1700, the next one was 1820). For "吉月吉日", as you noted it could either mean "auspicious date" or "first day of the first month", I don't know which it is in this context. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:36, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the correct characters and the date estimate. Can you tell me more about the epoch name used by rebels? That certainly adds another element of interest, especially if the donor or artist may have been associated with anti-Qing rebels --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:03, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Chinese Wikipedia lists the following rebel groups that used "Tianyun" as an era name:

1637: Zhang Puwei, anti-Ming rebel movement;

1786-1788: Lin Shuangwen, anti-Qing rebel movement in Taiwan;

1795: Chen Zhouquan, anti-Qing rebel movement in Taiwan;

1832: Zhang Bing, anti-Qing rebel movement in Taiwan;

1853-1855: Liu Lichuan, anti-Qing rebel movement in Shanghai;

1896: Mount Tieguo anti-Japanese resistance movement in Taiwan.

Other than Zhang Puwei, the reason all of the later movements (and there could be others) adopted the same era name is because of the influence of the Tiandihui or Hung Society anti-Manchu secret society, which did not accept the legitimacy of Qing rule and therefore did not use Qing era names. Instead, they adopted "Tianyun" as an era name for their internal documents. Although Zhang Puwei was anti-Ming, that movement started around the time that the Qing became a serious threat to the Ming, so the era name became identified with anti-Qing resistance. The Gelaohui and Triad secret societies also adopted the era name. Adherents of these secret societies sometimes used the era name publicly as well - for example it is used occasionally on tombstones.

Sun Yat-sen sought support from the Tiandihui, Gelaohui and during his revolutionary struggles, which is why the Tongmenghui, the predecessor of the Kuomintang, also used it as an era name in its documents. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:04, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

That is super interesting. You've certainly made my day. Thanks again! --Ghostexorcist (talk) 01:40, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

You are welcome! --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:14, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

When the ideograms give the "auspicious month and day" do they actually identify the particular date which is auspicious? I'm thinking we could have something like the "Sebaste days" of Asia Minor [1]. Is the "epoch name" the year's position in the sexagesimal cycle? 81.148.128.200 (talk) 17:08, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

For the first question: no, it literally says "auspicious day of auspicious month". Google is not letting me see the page of the book you referred to.

For the second question, by "epoch name" I mean (what I can now see is called) era name on Wikipedia, i.e. a name chosen by a ruler. The particular name in this case, Tianyun, was not an official era name, but it was used by various rebel groups and secret societies - see my reply to Ghost above. The next two characters, Geng-Chen, are the sexagesimal cycle markers. In almost all cases an era name and the seagesimal cycle marker should be sufficient to identify the specific year, but in this case as Tianyun was not an official era name and was used by different groups this is not possible. It is only based on Ghost's statement that the painting is from the 18th century that I said 1760, which is a Geng-Chen year. The previous Geng-Chen year was 1700 and the next Geng-Chen year was 1820. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:04, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Use of gerunds and possessives

I am not sure which one is most correct.

1. I walked in on Sophie doing X.
2. I walked in on Sophie's doing X.
3. I walked in on her [Sophie] doing X.
4. I walked in on her [Sophie's] doing X.
5. I see a boy sitting on the bench.
6. I see a boy's sitting on the bench.
7. I see his sitting on the bench.
8. I see him sitting on the bench.
9. We used this technique combining with mathematical models to study the effect of X on Y.
10. We used this technique, combined with mathematical models, to study the effect of X on Y. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 02:44, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

No. 9 would indicate that the mathematical element is inherent in the technique, no. 10 that the element is an addendum to it. Don't use a possessive unless there is actual ownership - the boy does not possess being seated on the bench and Sophie does not possess her actions. 81.148.187.1 (talk) 08:33, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

"We used this technique, combined with mathematical models, to study the effect of X on Y." Not the other version. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:30, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

(I have taken the liberty of numbering the list.) Numbers 1, 3, 5, 8 and 10 are fine; numbers 2, 6, 7, 9 aren't. Number 4 looks OK, but the implication that "her" substitutes for "Sophie's" makes it wrong. Bazza (talk) 09:46, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

What objection do you both have to the gerunds in 2, 4, 6, and 7? The sentences might sound unusual in many contexts, but this doesn't make them grammatically wrong. Dbfirs 11:17, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Right, context makes all the difference:

6. I see a girl's coat hanging on a gate post. I see a boy's sitting on the bench.

7. Jim and Mandy were both told to bring their toys in with them. Mandy has hers. I see his sitting on the bench.

That wouldn't be the use of the gerund that I linked above.

"I saw the boy's sitting down on the bench [action], but I didn't see his getting up again." (I'm sure someone else can think of a less contrived example). Dbfirs 12:26, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

I was not taking contrived constructions into account in my reply above (although I give credit for the subsequent attempts), as the OP was simply asking for which were the most correct out of the specific sentences given: 6 and 7 just about work in the specific contexts you gave in your examples (although 6 is stretching it without "down"), but the original question did not include these, so I stick with my simple answers. Bazza (talk) 13:30, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Number 6 could be the equivalent of "I see a boy is sitting on the bench" which is fine, although using neither gerund nor possessive. Bazza (talk) 18:24, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

"reduce" antonyms

i am looking for antonyms of reduce (exclude "increase")68.151.25.115 (talk) 06:11, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Which ones have you thought of so far? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:52, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/reduce has a few. --212.235.66.73 (talk) 07:41, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Boost, augment, raise, enhance, bring up ("We need to bring up those grades"). Those are the main ones.162.40.209.132 (talk) 20:36, 7 June 2017 (UTC) Oh, I just thought of one more: elevate ("The diet elevates the laboratory animals' cholesterol"). This generally carries a negative connotation.162.40.209.132 (talk) 21:02, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

You could always just type "reduce antonym" into any web search engine. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 22:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Need help with grammar terminology

What is the correct term for when a (usually "ed") suffix converts a verb into a "state of being" word? Examples:

• I am angered
• The man is disabled
• The paint is weathered

I'm afraid my high school grammar lessons are too long ago... Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:16, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Participle. To be more specific, adding the "ed" suffix gives the passive participle, adding the "ing" suffix gives the present participle. HOTmag (talk) 11:27, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks HOTmag -- Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:21, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

The participle with the "-ing" ending is usually called the present participle, while the one with the "-ed" ending is the past participle. The present participle is always active, while the past participle can be either active or passive. All forms can be either adverbial participles, or adjectival participles. Wymspen (talk) 14:37, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Surname Y'Blood

Where did William T. Y'Blood's surname come from? And how is it pronounced? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:33, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Weird, but this British woman pronounces it: William My Blood. HOTmag (talk) 11:56, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

The stilted rhythm of the speech sounds like it is text-to-speech software, not a live person, speaking. I suspect the m at the end of William is affecting the pronunciation. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:26, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

A check on census records throws up a few other people with that surname - all from Arkansas, so probably a single family. Some do not seem to use the apostrophe. I can see nothing on its origin, but immigrant lists show several similar names which could have been changed on arrival - Hablaud, Yibloda, etc - or the Y could have originated in a Spanish name where maternal and paternal family names are so linked. Listening to the YouTube source given above, I hear William I(eye) Blood. Wymspen (talk) 14:42, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

I wonder if it is an abbreviation of Youngblood that somehow became a separate name. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:58, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Another guess: It's from the Gaelic "Uí Bloid" see, [2]. The Irish Uí Bloid is an Irish respelling of the Welsh name "ap Lloyd", and is often rendered in English as "Blood". Perhaps the patronymic Uí was rendered "Y'" in his family (it is usually rendered "O'" in English, but strange things happen sometimes...) --Jayron32 19:37, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Yet another idea: From the Welsh "y" or "yr", meaning "the". See here. --Jayron32 19:46, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Some support for Adam's idea: "[Thomas Youngblood] also appears in records as Thomas Y'blood or Wyblood and 'Young' Youngblood" and Producer Kent Youngblood is sometimes credited as "Kent Y'Blood" according to his IMDb page. This is what a quick and superficial googling of "Youngblood" + "Y'blood" yielded at first glance, and there may well be more examples. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:28, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

This seems to be closest to the mark. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:08, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Note that even if youngblood is a common noun, it does not seem to be used as a genuine English surname, so this is an Anglicized form of German Jungblut(h) (see).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:03, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

"etwas eiskalt / knallhart durchziehen"

How would you translate: Du ziehst dein Programm einfach eiskalt / knallhart durch, for instance when sb's girlfriend complains about her partner's behaviour of neglecting their relationship in favour of his reading passion?--Erdic (talk) 19:33, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm really having trouble coming up with anything idiomatic that conveys the same meaning. To give something to work with for English native-speakers who perhaps don't quite understand the German original: "You just stick to your program without flinching" is something I thought of (but it sucks). ---Sluzzelin talk 23:20, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

How about "You just set your jaw and push through" ? —Stephen (talk) 04:07, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

or "carry on regardless" -- Q Chris (talk) 13:38, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

(Chiefly BrE) "Keep a stiff upper lip" ? ("Stick with the program" also exists in English, but might be more of a warning against deviations than is intended in the German.) StuRat (talk) 17:11, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks to all for your proposals! @Q Chris: I quite like "carry on regardless" – since it's so classic somehow...--Erdic (talk) 20:46, 7 June 2017 (UTC)